GOG RISING

[ray neukirch]

Against what should have been all odds, Putin won his bid for president. It was not be because he was a popular figure nor loved by the masses. In fact people in Russia are still protesting and calling for a recount of the election results. No matter what they try to accomplish, in no way will they displace this man from office.

This started some time ago when Putin first held the office. The end of the cold war was still having an impact on policy and the ability of how hard any politician could push. His personal agenda was limited. Satan was not yet done molding this man for his needs and needed him to grow in power in the shadows. If you have tracked what Putin has been doing to unite all the countries formed after the break up of the Soviet Union,you realize the line up is forming the group that will come against Israel in the end days.

Once more we can turn to scripture in Ezekiel 38-39 and find the answer to the motives of the actions that are taking place right now. I am in awe to see the Bible come alive in my life time. I know that between the talent of those in Israel and God almighty, everything will work out.

So as Satan plays out his plan and allows Gog to seep into the vessel he has prepared, we can do what the Lord has trained us to do and pray. Pray for peace in Jerusalem and the strength of Israel.

Be prepared and keep looking up

YBIC Ray

[daygo]

Agreed.

[Sean Osborne]

So as Satan plays out his plan and allows Gog to seep into the vessel he has prepared...

Ray,

Excellent post, but i would like to address this thought in particular.

Ezekiel 38/39 is a prophecy direct from God to Ezekiel. In this prophecy God directly addresses the events which will take place to Ezekiel in the first person.

For example the Lord says repeatedly throughout the text of both chapters (KJV): "I [am] against thee, O Gog ... I will ... I will ... I will ... I would bring thee ... Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself ... I will ... I will ... I will ... I have spoken ... I will ... So will I make ... I have spoken ... I will set ... I have poured out my spirit ..."

Nowhere in this prophecy is Satan mentioned or spoken of as having any role in this event. This is our Sovereign God speaking His prophecy for the manifestation of His will for Israel and the nations of the world.

[ray neukirch]

Sean,

I agree with your thoughts. I sometimes cut corners as to not bore people. I feel Satan has a grip on those that commit vile acts in this world and credit him only because his ultimate goal is to destroy Israel and steal Gods Glory. That won't happen but who can tell the devil to go to hell but our Lord.

[Sean Osborne]

Sean,

I agree with your thoughts. I sometimes cut corners as to not bore people. I feel Satan has a grip on those that commit vile acts in this world and credit him only because his ultimate goal is to destroy Israel and steal Gods Glory. That won't happen but who can tell the devil to go to hell but our Lord.

Ray,

When it comes to the Lord's direct word of prophecy as seen in Ezekiel 38/39, I personally do not cut any corners. I approach the eschatological subject matter as a literalist when the text is literal, and Ezekiel 38/39 is without question explicitly literal. This particular hermeneutic is essential in any studying or subsequent exegetical writing regarding prophetic texts such as Ezekiel 38/39.

As I said, excellent comment on your part, except for the Satanic attribution to Ez. 38/39.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Gotta agree with Sean here, nothing satanic about Biblica Prophecy......

[donsingleton]

Do you believe Magog is Russia? As I indicated elsewhere in this thread I believe that all Ezekiel 38 countries are Islamic.

[donsingleton]

Nowhere in this prophecy is Satan mentioned or spoken of as having any role in this event. This is our Sovereign God speaking His prophecy for the manifestation of His will for Israel and the nations of the world.

I agree. Satan is certainly involved with (and later becomes) the AntiChrist to follow, but the Ezekiel 38 battle gives God a reason to supernaturally wipe the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque from the Temple Mount to allow the Temple to be rebuilt.

[mattfivefour]

Do you believe Magog is Russia? As I indicated elsewhere in this thread I believe that all Ezekiel 38 countries are Islamic.

I know that there are groups that believe as you do (for example Contender Ministries) but as Sean has amply shown in another thread from scripture and from history it has to be Russia (http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/g...#post841953139). After all, the words מירכתי צפו (miyarkete sapown) in Ezekiel 39:2 clearly say "the remotest (or most distant part) of the north." On any map projection that accurate shows lines of longitude, one can see that the furthest (or remotest) part directly north of Israel is Russia which has traditionally, over thousands of years, been associated with Mesach and Tubal and the land of Magog.

[donsingleton]

Don,
The Islamic AC theory is bankrupt and it is not allowed to be promoted here at RF. WE believe the literal words of the Bible in that the AC will come from the people who destroyed the temple and city. History records that this was the Romans. We are do not all for non pre-trib rapture timings and the other topic not up for discussion is the AC coming from the Middle East. That is simply based on newspaper exegesis and we will not lead people astray with the looney teaching of Shoebat or Richardson. Shoebat for example teaches that the AC and FP are one and the same. That the mark of the beast is the banadanas that the terrorists wear on their foreheads and arms. That is utterly ridiculous. We just will not have that garbage promoted on here. I'm sorry, but as the forum owner and founder we will keep the board biblical and we aren't going to entertain "strained and strange logic" theories in order to sell books like Shoebat and Richardson.

Thanks for understanding. If you want to discuss Islamic AC stuff, there are other boards on the Internet for it. This just isn't the place for it.

[Chris]

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

Above here is an extraordinary scholarship link on the subject of the Gog/Magog war in Ezekiel 38-39 along with the appropriate name-places for those involved in the conflict. Even the Jews know that Russia is involved in the conflict. We don't sell books, we go with strict literal and sound theological study.

A fascinating 1980 Jewish commentary, Daniel, published by The ArtScroll Tanach Series, makes the following comments on the identity of Magog:

The various traditions concerning the identity of Magog, who in Genesis 10:2 is listed among the sons of Noah's son Japheth, tend to place the land of Magog in what today is southwest Russia*The Caucasian region, which lies between the Black and Caspian Seas . . . This is in agreement with Yerushalmi Megillah 3:9 which renders Magog as "the Goths," a group of nomadic tribes who destroyed the Scythians and made their homes in Scythian territory. . . . Our identification of Magog as Caucasia, which was at one time inhabited by the Goths, is based on the assumption that the land of Magog is named after Japheth's son. . . .

Rabbi Chisdai Ibn Shaprut wrote to the king of Khazaria (a Caucasian kingdom in southern Russia which converted to Judaism in the eighth century after Christ) in which he addresses the king as 'prince, leader of Meshech and Tubal.' This salutation, drawn from our verse, indicates that the Gaonim had a tradition that these countries were indeed located in Russia.

This acclaimed commentary concludes this section with a fascinating comment:

In this light one may understand an oral tradition passed down from the Vilna Gaon (see Chevlei Mashaiach BiZemaneinu, p. 134), that when the Russian navy passes through the Bosporus it will be time to put on Sabbath clothes (in anticipation of the coming Mashiach.)

[GlennO]

OUTSTANDING Resource Chris!!!

Worthy of a sticky IMO.....

[donsingleton]

Don,
The Islamic AC theory is bankrupt and it is not allowed to be promoted here at RF. WE believe the literal words of the Bible in that the AC will come from the people who destroyed the temple and city. History records that this was the Romans. We are do not all for non pre-trib rapture timings and the other topic not up for discussion is the AC coming from the Middle East. That is simply based on newspaper exegesis and we will not lead people astray with the looney teaching of Shoebat or Richardson. Shoebat for example teaches that the AC and FP are one and the same. That the mark of the beast is the banadanas that the terrorists wear on their foreheads and arms. That is utterly ridiculous. We just will not have that garbage promoted on here. I'm sorry, but as the forum owner and founder we will keep the board biblical and we aren't going to entertain "strained and strange logic" theories in order to sell books like Shoebat and Richardson.

Thanks for understanding. If you want to discuss Islamic AC stuff, there are other boards on the Internet for it. This just isn't the place for it.

I certainly do not accept Shoebat's belief that AC and FP are one and the same, but there are some things he says that do make sense to me. I would be interested if you could point me toward the forums where you say they accept some of their ideas (email me if you dont want to post here), and can you show me Biblical references that show they are wrong. For example if you don't believe the AC is Islamic, are you willing to consider the idea that all of the Ezekiel 38 countries are Islamic (i.e. that Russia is not necessarilly Magog)?

You said you were "not all for non pre-trib rapture timings". I certainly don't follow Camping, and believe Mathew and Mark when they said that "no man knows the day or the hour", but does that mean that we are not very close to the end-times?

[Chris]

I certainly do not accept Shoebat's belief that AC and FP are one and the same, but there are some things he says that do make sense to me. I would be interested if you could point me toward the forums where you say they accept some of their ideas (email me if you dont want to post here), and can you show me Biblical references that show they are wrong. For example if you don't believe the AC is Islamic, are you willing to consider the idea that all of the Ezekiel 38 countries are Islamic (i.e. that Russia is not necessarilly Magog)?

You said you were "not all for non pre-trib rapture timings". I certainly don't follow Camping, and believe Mathew and Mark when they said that "no man knows the day or the hour", but does that mean that we are not very close to the end-times?

Yes and No. The countries listed in the prophecy are all Islamic except for Magog which is Russia (which is the leader). There's over 130 historical references according to Jack Kelley that validates the fact that Russia is Magog. I provided a link above to an outstanding article written by the late Grant Jeffrey that explained the matter in great detail. Here is the link again:

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

We are a pre-trib board so only pre-trib teachings are allowed here. I believe from your site you are pre-trib. :-)

If you will search the forums and you will find threads where we have already discussed the issues of Shoebat and Richardson previously. I'm pretty busy and don't have time to re-hatch the same arguments over and over each week. That's not really how I want to spend my bandwidth for the site. We've actually been over at Richardson's site and shown him his theories are bankrupt, but of course he and his followers never want to accept that they are wrong because he's got too many books selling the wrong theory that pride prevents them from acknowledging the truth. Shoebat believes you have to be Middle Eastern to understand the Bible and looks at it from an Islamic perspective which is all wrong. We don't support any of Shoebat or Richardson's theories.

[Sean Osborne]

... if you don't believe the AC is Islamic, are you willing to consider the idea that all of the Ezekiel 38 countries are Islamic (i.e. that Russia is not necessarilly Magog)?

The Antichrist cannot be Islamic. Period. He will come from the same genetic stock as his prophetic forerunner, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Macedonian-Greek European. His ethnicity will be in exact fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. Everybody knows that the Roman legions which destroyed the 2nd Temple and the city of Jerusalem were Legio X Fretensis (from the Straits of Messina between the Italian mainland and Sicily), Legio V Macedonica (which obviously was from Macedonia), and Legio XV Apollinaris which was stationed on the Danube River near what is present day Austria and Slovenia. These Roman legions were all staffed by Roman (European) citizen soldiers from the lowest all the way up the chain of command to General Titus Flavius Vespasianus.

Moreover, it does not matter one iota what the religion of any of the Gog of Magog confederated armies are - their religion is totally irrelevant to the prophecy of Ezekiel 38/39. Those nations are utterly annihilated by God Almighty Himself prior to the rise of the Antichrist and the start of the 70th Week; their leader, Gog, is buried in Israel, in a place that today is a part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, but in that day will be Israel proper (as a direct result of the outcome of the Psalm 83 war which has been in-progress since May 1948).

[Chris]

Absolutely outstanding scholarship Sean. Your post deserves to be a sticky!!

[Sean Osborne]

It really twists my biscuit to see these "Islamic Antichrist" proponents (Shoebat, Richardson, et al) ignore the plain text Word of God and teach a false narrative regarding the 'Last Days.' It twists my biscuit even more to know that some of our brethren do not feed themselves regularly with the Word of God and ignorantly accept at face value the deceptive nonsense offered by these grossly erroneous teachers.

In the soon-to-be final fulfillment of Psalm 83, Joshua 13:1-7 and Isaiah 17 (among others) we see the coming final act of the 64 -year old Psalm 83 war in which all of the current 'inner ring' of islamic enemies (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the Palestinians of Judea/Samaria and Gaza and the Egyptians) of Israel are robustly defeated. Islam will not be the same afterwards. And most astute prophecy observers note that Iran is nowhere to be found within this fulfillment, and only re-appears in prophecy within a minor role in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38/39.

Islam and its false God and false theology will have suffered an insurmountable defeat on its home turf prior to the start of the 70th Week.

These same false teachers also completely ignore Daniel's interpretation of of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. They see only Islam and a false god standing on one leg, the "Eastern Leg." What really exists in Bible prophecy at the bottom of that statue during the 70th Week? That's right, without question at the base of the two legs spanning Europe, the Middle East and Western Asia - just as in the days of the Greek and Roman Empires - are two feet and 10 toes. Two feet and 10 toes.

What do those toes represent? The 10 nations that form the basis of the Antichrist's iron and clay kingdom. 10 crowns, three of which he shall subdue for himself, as seen in Revelation 13:1-2.

[Landonholt]

I would encourage you to read a bit about the significance of the story of Jacob and Esau, and its relevance to Bible prophecy. It's called the time of Jacob's trouble. It's said that a descendent of Esau will be the antichrist.

[mattfivefour]

Respectfully, Landenholt, I would have to disagree with the statement that "the Antichrist will be a descendant of Esau." I am not sure how some people get that idea. I have searched scripture for it and do not see it.

The important passages of Scripture concerning Esau are as follows:


"The LORD said to her (Rebekah), 'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger.'" (Genesis 25:23)

"Then Isaac his father answered and said to him (Esau), 'Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling, And away from the dew of heaven from above. By your sword you shall live, And your brother you shall serve; But it shall come about when you become restless, That you will break his yoke from your neck.'” (Genesis 27:39-40)

"'Then the house of Jacob will be a fire And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble. And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau,' for the LORD has spoken." (Obadiah 1:18)

"The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi: 'I have loved you,' says the LORD. But you say, 'How have You loved us?' 'Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?' declares the LORD. 'Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.' Though Edom (desendants of Esau) says, 'We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins'; thus says the LORD of hosts, 'They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever.' Your eyes will see this and you will say, 'The LORD be magnified beyond the border of Israel!'" (Malachi 1:1-5)

"See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. (Hebrews 12:15-17)


Outside of these, Esau is mentioned only in passing. I can only presume that some see the reference in Genesis 27:40 to Esau breaking the yoke of Israel from his neck as somehow meaning that Israel shall be conquered by Esau. First, that is a real stretch that requires the addition of ideas not found in the Bible; second, it does not say Esau will rule Israel, only that he will come out from under Israel's rule.


The problem in the Church today is that there are far too many teachers teaching ideas of their own minds that are not produced by Scripture. These "teachers" use scripture to bolster their ideas, but scripture itself does not say what they say. What they do is called eisegesis and proof-texting. And that is the absolutely wrong way to use God's Word.

[Robert]

I would encourage you to read a bit about the significance of the story of Jacob and Esau, and its relevance to Bible prophecy. It's called the time of Jacob's trouble. It's said that a descendent of Esau will be the antichrist.

Um, where exactly?