Clues to the Timing of Ezekiel 38/39 other Insights

[WKUHilltopper]

Do I get an 'A', professor?

I'm jealous! I usually get "D's" in conduct.

SonSeeker,

2 Kings 16 is God's Holy Word on what occurred in Damascus in the Assyrian conquest of 723 BC. At that time Damascus clearly did not "cease from being a city" and become "a ruinous heap."

Therefore, Isaiah 17 cannot possibly have been fulfilled at that time. Any study Bible or exegesis which teaches such nonsense is a blatantly false teaching regarding the Word of God.

It is really curious why there are some pastors/writers claiming Isaiah 17 has already happened. To me it's pretty clear it hasn't.

I'm sure I've raised some eyebrows of some people on here in the past when they quote a certain preacher or person writing an article--and I have no idea who these "writers" are. Honestly, I don't read that much "supplementary" articles. I pretty much stick with the Scriptures. Sometimes when I do run up on a name, I'll commonly post on here--anyone know or have an opinion on this guy? It is because I really don't know all the present day "biblical writers" (Except for like Reagan, Markell, and just a few others I've discovered via this site). So don't laugh when I might ask about some guy you all know as a lunatic, but the name is new for me! LOL

But back to the topic, maybe because I stay pretty much within the Scriptures is the reason why, in my opinion, it is clear Isaiah 17 is still awaiting fulfillment. I'm nothing special in "deciphering" or "understanding". I think the Bible is pretty much 95%, if not better, clearly understandable. I've also read where some have posted here their assertion certain seals have been broken, etc, and we're now in this time--and quote from some human writer. I can't understand why people would believe this--we're not in the Tribulation period. We're in a lousy period, but certainly not the Tribulation period. Maybe because they should start with reading the Scriptures first? I don't know why some have claimed this unless it is easier to read an article written by someone. So I guess it shouldn't surprise me about Isaiah 17 being claimed has been fulfilled. Again, to me the Scriptures are clear!

I tell my kids all the time--stay strong in the Scriptures and you won't be deceived and you'll be able to smell a rat "real quick like".

[Sean Osborne]

It is really curious why there are some pastors/writers claiming Isaiah 17 has already happened.

In my best Maxwell Smart voice... "Would you believe..." that some of those pastors/writers say there are "many problems" with what we believe concerning Isaiah 17. But to learn what those problems are will cost the intrepid Berean the tidy of $10.00 for one month access, $50.00 for 6 months access or $100.00 for a full year's worth of access to their interpretive views.

Those fees are in and of themselves all the rationale I require to dismiss their views outright and invite them to challenge the Biblical and historical research on my blog free-of-charge.

[WKUHilltopper]

In my best Maxwell Smart voice... "Would you believe..." that some of those pastors/writers say there are "many problems" with what we believe concerning Isaiah 17. But to learn what those problems are will cost the intrepid Berean the tidy of $10.00 for one month access, $50.00 for 6 months access or $100.00 for a full year's worth of access to their interpretive views.

Those fees are in and of themselves all the rationale I require to dismiss their views outright and invite them to challenge the Biblical and historical research on my blog free-of-charge.

Thanks for implanting the 'Get Smart' theme song in my head for the next few hours!

What's your blog's address?

[Everlasting Life]

I have this absolutely burning question
been trying to avoid
to no avail


I cant help but see and realize many of the Northern parts folks seem to say is Russia or fits to Russia ITS SYRIA
modern SYRIA IRAQ and IRAN

Ive wondered lately if the A/C will come out of Syria
I dont know but its clear as daylight from scripture folks have placed Russia mostly
but LOOK
Its written of SYRIA

what you reckon ?

Sorry but I see the actual invasion route is no different than the past ones ands look even now and consider past invasion routes taken by Babylon Assyrians Greece etcetera ...

much of what is read pertains t o precise what Daniel wrote and said and people look at Russia when in fact they need look at Syria

does any one else recognize this from scripture ?

As early as 32 you read of Nort Syria Damascus Arpad and others and Hamath

Elijah's Mantle

Actually I've often wondered the same thing as you on the basis of what we are told in Daniel in regards to the King of the North and the King of the South. The King of the North was Syria (which encompassed a greater land mass than now as Sean was kind enough to clarify in another thread) and the King of the South was Egypt. Something else to think about is that I believe Syria used to be part of the Roman Empire....and also part of the Assyrian Empire (correct me if I'm wrong).

I always felt that there was a near and far prophecy in this particular section of Daniel (chapter 11 and 12 mainly) as well as in Isaiah and other prophetic books. I remember being told that countries addressed in Isaiah were in relation to Israel directionally. So, if the country of the North is addressed...than that would be the country to the North of Israel, etc. Of course I may need correcting and am always open for better info. :-) So, that's the logic I've based the idea of Syria being the country of the North.

Maybe Syria's the hook? We know that Russia, Iran, Syria and countries of their mindset are all connected and working together.

Ok, just some thoughts, hope I didnt' cause mass confusion.



On another note, in light of recent events in Syria, I happen to notice that in verse 1 of Isaiah 17 that Damascus is described as a burden. It made me pause, because indeed Damascus is becoming a burden to the world and it's leaders.

The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

[SonSeeker]

Originally Posted by SonSeeker


Do I get an 'A', professor?

"Originally posted by WKUHilltopper
I'm jealous! I usually get "D's" in conduct.

You'll also notice that Sean didn't grade my work (thankfully!).

[SonSeeker]

My New Living Translation states,

Isaiah 17:1 "Look, the city of Damascus will disappear. It will become a heap of ruins."

Barnes' Notes on the BibleThe burden of Damascus - The oracle indicating calamity or destruction to Damascus (see the note at Isaiah 13:1). "Damascus is taken away." That is, it shall be destroyed. It was represented to the prophet in vision as destroyed (see the note at Isaiah 1:1).
And it shall be a ruinous heap - See Isaiah 35:2. This took place under the kings of Assyria, and particularly under Tiglath-pileser. This was in the fourth year of Ahaz 2 Kings 16:9.

Clarke's Commentary on the BibleThe burden of Damascus - Which is, according to the common version, The cities of Aroer are forsaken. It has already been observed by the learned prelate that the prophecy, as it relates to Damascus, was executed in the beginning of the reign of Ahaz, probably about the third year. If we credit Midrash, the Damascenes were the most extensive and flagrant of all idolaters. "There were in Damascus three hundred and sixty-five streets, in each of these was an idol, and each idol had his peculiar day of worship; so that the whole were worshipped in the course of the year." This, or any thing like this, was a sufficient reason for this city's destruction.

A ruinous heap - For מעי mei, "a ruinous heap," the Septuagint reads לעי lei, "for a ruin," the Vulgate כעי kei, "as a ruin." I follow the former.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleThe burden of Damascus,.... A heavy and grievous prophecy, concerning the destruction of it; the Arabic version is,
"the prophecy of Isaiah concerning Damascus;''
and the Targum is,
"the burden of the cup of cursing to give Damascus to drink.''
Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city; a kingdom, as the Targum; it was the head of one, but now its walls were demolished, its houses pulled down, and its inhabitants carried captive; this was done by Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, 2 Kings 16:9

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old TestamentThe first turn: "Behold, Damascus must (be taken) away out of the number of the cities, and will be a heap of fallen ruins. The cities of Aroer are forsaken, they are given up to flocks, they lie there without any one scaring them away. And the fortress of Ephraim is abolished, and the kingdom of Damascus; and it happens to those that are left of Aram as to the glory of the sons of Israel, saith Jehovah of hosts." "Behold," etc.: hinnēh followed by a participle indicates here, as it does everywhere else, something very near at hand. Damascus is removed מעיר ( equals עיר מהיות, cf., 1 Kings 15:13), i.e., out of the sphere of existence as a city. It becomes מעי, a heap of ruins. The word is used intentionally instead of עי, to sound as much as possible like מעיר: a mutilated city, so to speak. It is just the same with Israel, which has made itself an appendage of Damascus.

The Believer's Bible Commentary states:

"Isaiah 17:1-3 ......Damascus was destroyed by the Assyrian armies in 732 BC, and samaria fell ten years later."

The word "destroyed" is pretty significant as it gives the impression Damascus ceased to be a city.

NLT Study Bible Isaiah 17:1 Damascus, the ringleader in the alliance of Syria and Israel against Judah, fell when the Assyrian king Tiglath-pileser III invaded in 732 BC.

NLT Life Application Study Bible Isaiah 17:1 The northern kingdom and Aram made an alliance to fight against Syria. But Tiglath-pileser III captured Damascus, the capital of Aram, in 732 BC and annexed the northern kingdom to the Assyrian Empire. Ahaz, king of Judah, paid tribute to Tiglath-pileser III (2Kings 16:1-14).

All of the above references seem to agree that Isaiah 17 was fulfilled. The only source I was able find which stated otherwise was this:

An Oracle Concerning Damascus:

“See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid. (Isaiah 17:1-2)
Because of the language of these verses, many scholars believe that this prophecy was only partially fulfilled when the Assyrians defeated the Arameans and overran their capital, Damascus, in 732 BC. To this day Damascus is thought to be the world’s oldest continuously inhabited city with a 5000-year history and a population close to 2 million, yet Isaiah 17:1
indicates that it will one day cease to exist.

Now I am really confused.

[mattfivefour]

The NLT Life Application notes are the most accurate. They say:

The northern kingdom and Aram made an alliance to fight against Syria. But Tiglath-pileser III captured Damascus, the capital of Aram, in 732 BC and annexed the northern kingdom to the Assyrian Empire. Ahaz, king of Judah, paid tribute to Tiglath-pileser III (2 Kings 16:1-14).

Now where in that do you see the "destruction" of Damascus that some of the other commentators suggest? I have looked at the history of Damascus and nowhere can I find its destruction recorded. History records only that Damascus was conquered—a few times—but never destroyed. In fact Encyclopedia Britannica records:

In 734 Tiglath-pileser invaded southern Syria and the Philistine territories in Palestine, going as far as the Egyptian border. Israel tried to organize resistance against him, seeking to bring Judah into their alliance. Ahaz of Judah, however, asked Tiglath-pileser for help. In 733 Tiglath-pileser devastated Israel and forced it to surrender large territories. In 732 he advanced upon Damascus, first devastating the gardens outside the city and then conquering the capital and killing the king, whom he replaced with a governor.

Odd that Tiglath-Pileser III would place a governor over a ruinous heap where a city once stood, isn't it?

The fact is Damascus has NEVER been destroyed. Yet.

I pray this ends your confusion, bro.

[SonSeeker]

Thanks Adrian,

Yes, it does help on the confusion I'm feeling, but it also generates more questions.

This is just one prophecy we are discussing. Out of how many prophecies in the bible?

You say the NLT Life Application Study notes are the most accurate. Out of all the various Bibles, Study Notes, and Commentaries out there, how is the average 'Joe' supposed to know which is correct? I have the NLT Parallel Study Bible, and the Believer's Bible Commentary. The NLT Life Application notes were correct.........this time. What about next time? Since the Believer's Bible Commentary is incorrect on this issue, on how many other issues is it incorrect?

I realize there aren't any answers to my questions, Adrian. I'm just trying to help the newbies, myself included, to not only get on the right path, but to stay on that path also.

[Carl]

In my best Maxwell Smart voice... "Would you believe..." that some of those pastors/writers say there are "many problems" with what we believe concerning Isaiah 17. But to learn what those problems are will cost the intrepid Berean the tidy of $10.00 for one month access, $50.00 for 6 months access or $100.00 for a full year's worth of access to their interpretive views.

Those fees are in and of themselves all the rationale I require to dismiss their views outright and invite them to challenge the Biblical and historical research on my blog free-of-charge.

Sounds like follow the money trail doesn't it.

[mattfivefour]

Thanks Adrian,

Yes, it does help on the confusion I'm feeling, but it also generates more questions.

This is just one prophecy we are discussing. Out of how many prophecies in the bible?

You say the NLT Life Application Study notes are the most accurate. Out of all the various Bibles, Study Notes, and Commentaries out there, how is the average 'Joe' supposed to know which is correct? I have the NLT Parallel Study Bible, and the Believer's Bible Commentary. The NLT Life Application notes were correct.........this time. What about next time? Since the Believer's Bible Commentary is incorrect on this issue, on how many other issues is it incorrect?

I realize there aren't any answers to my questions, Adrian. I'm just trying to help the newbies, myself included, to not only get on the right path, but to stay on that path also.

Which is why you cannot follow the words of one man, or group of men. You need to use more than one or two commentaries. And it doesn't hurt to research history (if it is relevant to the question to hand) as well.

Commentaries, Word Studies, and Encyclopedias are ALL available free online. Just sayin'.

(For the record, the NLT was more correct on THIS topic. I do not know if it is correct on any other.)

[Sean Osborne]

You'll also notice that Sean didn't grade my work (thankfully!).

I don't do grades. Grades are judgmental. They are also very subjective. I do give a when I strongly agree with someones view.

However, prophecy from the Lord God is infallible. Zero mistakes, zero margin for error because His Word is perfect. Real-world future events are the crucible of true and false interpretation; the Lord's prophetic word being fulfilled in exact precision.

I would say more, but this suffices for the moment.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Elijah's Mantle

Actually I've often wondered the same thing as you on the basis of what we are told in Daniel in regards to the King of the North and the King of the South. The King of the North was Syria (which encompassed a greater land mass than now as Sean was kind enough to clarify in another thread) and the King of the South was Egypt. Something else to think about is that I believe Syria used to be part of the Roman Empire....and also part of the Assyrian Empire (correct me if I'm wrong).

I always felt that there was a near and far prophecy in this particular section of Daniel (chapter 11 and 12 mainly) as well as in Isaiah and other prophetic books. I remember being told that countries addressed in Isaiah were in relation to Israel directionally. So, if the country of the North is addressed...than that would be the country to the North of Israel, etc. Of course I may need correcting and am always open for better info. :-) So, that's the logic I've based the idea of Syria being the country of the North.

Maybe Syria's the hook? We know that Russia, Iran, Syria and countries of their mindset are all connected and working together.

Ok, just some thoughts, hope I didnt' cause mass confusion.



On another note, in light of recent events in Syria, I happen to notice that in verse 1 of Isaiah 17 that Damascus is described as a burden. It made me pause, because indeed Damascus is becoming a burden to the world and it's leaders.


The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

OH no you did not cause any confusion at all Everlastinglife
I clearly see much of what you just said in those scriptures

and began a thread about Daniel , in hopes I dont confuse nobody but mostly myself If I could just get my mind to slow down from thinking ahead when I read Isaiah a hard book Id get it from the word itself a lot more
Its so mysterious and uncanny how reading Daniel validates much I found in Isaiah though . Intrigues me totally
Ive noticed lately how things are looking on the world scene
just how behind I am in what I need to grasp more about particular prophecies. And at the same time I think all of us will be a little surprised how those passages begin to leap off our Bible pages on to the front news pages
Its getting intense , sure nuff it is

Ive wondered much on Syria of the North
I got to stop getting the wars all balled up with one another
If I dont Ill have us all blowed to kingdom come before we can read it

[mattfivefour]

I got to stop getting the wars all balled up with one another

If I dont Ill have us all blowed to kingdom come before we can read it

[Elijah's Mantle]

Ive decided to lay that part of the wars to the credit of that
millennial Prophet Isaiah I surely want to meet him and talk a long time to him when I get there Isaiah even gave us the servant songs , for the Gentile church too . Amazing what is said . Much he said is about Judah an Jerusalem yet his prophecies covered the entire reign of the four kings in which we read validation of just that continuation in other places later on in the other books one is about Damascus and I have to get to there on the account of Is 2 yes that early on because it corresponds with the one in Micah and its of extreme significance because of the repetition of it being repeated By God to the Nations its there the Lord reveals the character of the kingdom he sets up in the much later

reading through you cant help but help wonderful old Isaiah fight them wars I suppose

[SonSeeker]

Sounds like follow the money trail doesn't it.

That sounds just about right, Carl.

Unfortunately, the same could probably be said for the various versions of the bible itself. The bible is the best selling publication of all time, and as such, it is ripe for the money grubbing to come out with their own version just to make a buck.

[SonSeeker]

I don't do grades. Grades are judgmental. They are also very subjective. I do give a when I strongly agree with someones view.

However, prophecy from the Lord God is infallible. Zero mistakes, zero margin for error because His Word is perfect. Real-world future events are the crucible of true and false interpretation; the Lord's prophetic word being fulfilled in exact precision.

I would say more, but this suffices for the moment.

I understand and agree, but it just baffles me that so many publications get it wrong. Sure makes it difficult to "separate the wheat from the chaff".

[SonSeeker]

Which is why you cannot follow the words of one man, or group of men. You need to use more than one or two commentaries. And it doesn't hurt to research history (if it is relevant to the question to hand) as well.

Commentaries, Word Studies, and Encyclopedias are ALL available free online. Just sayin'.

(For the record, the NLT was more correct on THIS topic. I do not know if it is correct on any other.)

Guess I'll keep reading as much as possible.

[Rescued by the Cross]

I have really enjoyed this thread and many others discussing Bible prophecy. Within the context of this discussion, I have found the promised boundaries of the Promised Land from Genesis 15:18-21 as an interesting consideration. Here is a link to a fairly good map of these boundaries:

File:Greater Israel map.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find the connection to Isaiah 19:18 very interesting as it relates to the boundaries. From current world events and infrastructure, this compliments the Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 understandings presented by Sean and helps set the context for the "hooks in the jaw" for Ezekiel 38. With these boundaries, Israel would be one of the most significant oil and gas producers in the world and they would control the Suez Canal.

[RandallB]

....
There is no mention of the Antichrist or of Jerusalem or any existing Temple in Ezekiel 38/39. I believe these are indicators that the attempted invasion by Gog's confederation occurs during a period of time when Israel is dwelling securely (after Psalm 83, Isaiah 17 for example) but has not yet rebuilt the Temple. Like a time between right now and the start of Daniel's 70th Week and the revealing of the Antichrist with his 7-year "covenant among many."
...

I agree. The Lord says exactly when "they will dwell securely"
-- after He judges the nations that 1) live around them and 2) hate them. i.e. Ps 83

Ezekiel 28:25-26 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God."'"

I feel that they will be dwelling mostly (or falsely) securely after Ps 83 and really securely in the MK when all nations who hate them and their God have been finally judged.

[RandallB]

...
Finally, getting back to the Lord's purpose in His prophetic word to Ezekiel. This is a really crucial point for us to consider. This coming great slaughter upon the mountains of Israel in Ezekiel 38/39 is not just to bring Israel back into faithfulness to God, but also, as the Lord declares in verse 16: (NKJV - emphasis added) "And thou hast come up against My people Israel, As a cloud to cover the land, In the latter end of the days it is, And I have brought thee in against My land, IN ORDER THAT THE NATIONS MAY KNOW ME, IN MY BEING SANCTIFIED IN THEE BEFORE THEIR EYES, O Gog."

Do you see that? God declares to Ezekiel - and to all of us living right now - that He will supernaturally reveal Himself to the gentile nations of the world through the overwhelming slaughter of Gog's entire confederated military forces and the fire He sends on the land of Magog.

First question: What purpose would there be to this for all of the gentile nations if it were not prior to the Harpazo?

...

I believe that what we have in view here is a change in dispensations rather than an attempt to draw more into the Church/Bride.

In the Dispensation of Grace the Lord turns His attention from Israel to the Bride. He uses the Holy Spirit to woo a bride for his Son as Eleazar did with the gentile bride Rebecca. Eleazar spoke of his master's son and gave gifts. Eleazar means Comforter. So Abraham sent Comforter to woo a gentile bride for his son. This period of wooing is currently what we are living in.

In Ez 38 and Ps 83 the Lord again turns His attention back towards Israel. They are again called "My People". He also demonstrations of power in an undeniable way to the Jews and the nations "That they may know that I am the Lord".

I see the purpose as the Lord drawing an elect people, both Jew and gentile, post rapture and during the tribulation towards Him. But this is not the church.