A problem with Ezekiel 38-39

[beameup]

After reading the list of nations involved in the invasion of Israel, one sticks out as being inconsistent with the current state of affairs.
Germany is generally listed, the problem being that Germany is a member of NATO (Russia is not).

Any thoughts on this?

PS: I am concluding that the U.S. will be strictly non-involved in the future due to the current failures of Iraq & Afghanistan.

[Robert]

After reading the list of nations involved in the invasion of Israel, one sticks out as being inconsistent with the current state of affairs.
Germany is generally listed, the problem being that Germany is a member of NATO (Russia is not).

Any thoughts on this?

PS: I am concluding that the U.S. will be strictly non-involved in the future due to the current failures of Iraq & Afghanistan.

Yeah: look how fast Turkey turned, and they are a member of NATO.

Also, Germany is only one possibility for "Gomer"; Gomer could be one of several nations from northern Turkey to eastern Europe. Keep in mind that National borders now do not reflect necessarily the areas spoken of back then, so in the area taken up by one modern nation, two or 3 ancient nations could have existed.

[beameup]

Usually the Bible lists a founder of a certain people (that they identify with as descendants)
or a city (which hasn't changed its name). I'm assuming that the experts in prophecy have
concluded that these are Germanic People mentioned in Ez. 38-39.

Turkey, although a member of NATO is an ISLAMIC country and is being rejected by the
European Union for membership - so they are already showing signs of alignment with Russia.
Keep in mind that half-dozen southern nations of the former Soviet Union are Islamic (names end in "stan").

[Robert]

Usually the Bible lists a founder of a certain people (that they identify with as descendants)
or a city (which hasn't changed its name). I'm assuming that the experts in prophecy have
concluded that these are Germanic People mentioned in Ez. 38-39.

Turkey, although a member of NATO is an ISLAMIC country and is being rejected by the
European Union for membership - so they are already showing signs of alignment with Russia.
Keep in mind that half-dozen southern nations of the former Soviet Union are Islamic (names end in "stan").

To my recollection, it isn't dogmatic about Gomer being Germany.

As for Turkey and NATO, here is your comment:

Germany is generally listed, the problem being that Germany is a member of NATO (Russia is not).

My reply was in reply to that: Turkey is also a member of NATO. Being a member of NATO is no guarantee.

[readytogo]

Usually the Bible lists a founder of a certain people (that they identify with as descendants)
or a city (which hasn't changed its name). I'm assuming that the experts in prophecy have
concluded that these are Germanic People mentioned in Ez. 38-39.

Turkey, although a member of NATO is an ISLAMIC country and is being rejected by the
European Union for membership - so they are already showing signs of alignment with Russia.
Keep in mind that half-dozen southern nations of the former Soviet Union are Islamic (names end in "stan").

I'm not sure which "experts" that you are referring to. And in the area that Robert mentioned Turkey to Eastern Europe, encompasses a large region. Gomer had 3 sons. Not all of them made it to Germany (or even tried to get there.) The nations along the way also have a large number of Muslims. (The "-stans" are in the opposite direction.)

[beameup]

Right, I'm just saying that either Ez. 38-39 is a NATO operation or Turkey and Germany "opt out" of NATO in the future (or NATO just "breaks up" in future).

At any rate, I see this as a "Holy War" with the southern (former) Soviet Islamic States being the "hooks in the jaw" of the bear. But that is another issue...
and Russia joining in "for the spoil" (loot, booty, etc.).

Which brings up another issue: Israel really has no "spoil" to speak of at the current time...

[Robert]

Not to mention that in many nations such as France and England, the Muslim populations are quickly multiplying and growing; antisemitic currents are running rampant through many nations, and simply being part of NATO does not mean a member nation approves of or even likes Israel.

[Chris]

Germany at one time had ships patrolling off the Lebanese border back in 2006 or 2008 as part of the UN peacekeeping force. They could turn on Israel and join in with the UN troops who might work with the LAF and terrorists to attack Israel. I wouldn't put anything past the UN.

[cathysue]

the updated and increased projections of deposits in Israel's off-shore Mediterranean gas fields have put Israel, for the first time ever, on the road to energy-exporter status. the latest report points to a potential of 4 billion barrels of “black gold. IsraelNationalNews.com Could this be the "Hooks in the Jaw"

[beameup]

the updated and increased projections of deposits in Israel's off-shore Mediterranean gas fields have put Israel, for the first time ever, on the road to energy-exporter status. the latest report points to a potential of 4 billion barrels of “black gold. IsraelNationalNews.com Could this be the "Hooks in the Jaw"

Invasion of another country "for spoil" (taking their wealth) really hasn't occurred since WWII.
The U.N. hasn't been involved in any armed conflict to speak of since Harry Truman and Korea.
I suspect from the list of nations mentioned that this is some sort of "Holy War" to most of the
participants. There has to be a very good reason for any invasion of this magnitude.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I came across a "theory" of sorts, that a major geological event (earthquake) in the Middle-East could actually divert these oil fields from their present location. Wouldn't it be something if the borders of Israel were permanently "defined" and then a HUGE deposit of petroleum was diverted into their territory?
A Massive Underground Oil & Gas Flow Will Make Israel the World's Bankers

[Robert]

Invasion of another country "for spoil" (taking their wealth) really hasn't occurred since WWII.
The U.N. hasn't been involved in any armed conflict to speak of since Harry Truman and Korea.
I suspect from the list of nations mentioned that this is some sort of "Holy War" to most of the
participants. There has to be a very good reason for any invasion of this magnitude.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I came across a "theory" of sorts, that a major geological event (earthquake) in the Middle-East could actually divert these oil fields from their present location. Wouldn't it be something if the borders of Israel were permanently "defined" and then a HUGE deposit of petroleum was diverted into their territory?
A Massive Underground Oil & Gas Flow Will Make Israel the World's Bankers

1) That doesn't mean it cannot happen again. People are human, and humans want what others have.

2) Israel already has "plunder" that are considerable: they are a major exporter of food (citrus, fruit and vegetables, etc), medical technology and supplies, computer technology (microchips), military weaponry (they developed the Uzi by col. Uziel Gall of Israel, as well as the "cornershot" weapon that can fire around corners, amongst other things), water-desalinization and purification technology, amongst others.

Plunder doesn't just mean money and treasure, and for nations that don't have what Israel has or are low on such things, Israel would prove to be a VERY tempting target.

[Sean Osborne]

Linking the modern nation of Germany with ancient Gomer is something a few eschatologists did many years ago. It is now generally seen as an error to have made such a link. Very few, if any, make that linkage today.

Per Ezekiel 38:6, Gomer was the eldest son of Japheth (Noah's grandson) and his descendants were known as the Cimmerians. Togarmah was Gomer's son and his descendants settled the area we know as Armenia. This is the region that Ezekiel is pointing to.

Gomer is an anglicized proper name which derives from Gimir and the Gimirri people of 800-700 BC. The ancient Greek geographer Ptolemy, and historian Herodotus, named the Gimiri's principle city as Gomara, and located it north of the Black Sea. Asyyrian scolls also place the Cimmerians in this region north of ancient Urartu circa 1000 BC - 10 centuries prior to Josephus and his historical records.

What Ezekiel is identifying here is a single family branch descended from Noah which settled and lived in the region immediately north and to the east of the Black Sea, also known today as the Crimea, the Don River Basin, Russian Krasnodarsk and Stravropol, and the Caucasus. This entire region is militarily dominated by the Russians.

There is no problem identifying Gomer and Togarmah with modern day Russia, Ukraine and the Caucasus Republics under Russian military domination.

There is a problem if one attempts to identify Gomer and his son Togarmah with the modern day German nation. That, my brothers and sisters, amounts to what is called newspaper exegesis.

[BuzzardHut]

Invasion of another country "for spoil" (taking their wealth) really hasn't occurred since WWII.
The U.N. hasn't been involved in any armed conflict to speak of since Harry Truman and Korea.
I suspect from the list of nations mentioned that this is some sort of "Holy War" to most of the
participants. There has to be a very good reason for any invasion of this magnitude.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I came across a "theory" of sorts, that a major geological event (earthquake) in the Middle-East could actually divert these oil fields from their present location. Wouldn't it be something if the borders of Israel were permanently "defined" and then a HUGE deposit of petroleum was diverted into their territory?
A Massive Underground Oil & Gas Flow Will Make Israel the World's Bankers

Gomer can = Turkey
the spoil can be oil, natural gas

[Sean Osborne]

The U.N. hasn't been involved in any armed conflict to speak of since Harry Truman and Korea.

No? Aren't you forgetting the several wars in the break-up of the former-Yugoslavia?

The fecklessness and ineffectiveness of European-commanded U.N. blue helmeted soldiers (UNPROFOR) against the Serbian and Bosnian-Serb Communist soldiers under Slobodan Milošević made the direct military invervention of the United States and NATO combat soldiers (IFOR) an absolute necessity.

[Meg]

Gomer is, according to Josephus, in "Anatolian Galatia, modern Turkey.

[mattfivefour]

Yes, much confusion and incorrect exegesis of eschatological scriptures has been occasioned by the incorrect correlation between Gomer and Germany. They are not synonymous. Buzz, Sean, and the others who agree with them are correct in their identification of Gomer with modern Turkey and the countries of Anatolia.

[Meg]

Yes, much confusion and incorrect exegesis of eschatological scriptures has been occasioned by the incorrect correlation between Gomer and Germany. They are not synonymous. Buzz, Sean, and the others who agree with them are correct in their identification of Gomer with modern Turkey and the countries of Anatolia.

I sit and wonder at a time like this, are you teaching your grandkids to talk? 'Cause if you are, there will be some very interesting notes sent to their parents by kindergarten teachers some day...

[mattfivefour]

I'm sorry. sometimes when I dash something off it comes out like I think. (Yes, I do think in words like that since that is how I was raised.) But I usually try to rephrase into common terms.

I guess I am a dinosaur from a bygone age when literacy was the norm and polysyllabism was not considered a genetic defect.

However surely you must admit that the phrase to which you refer says exactly what I mean and in the fewest number of words.

(OK, sorry. I shall try to be conversational in future. )

[Meg]

Oh please don't mind me, I'm in one of those moods this morning. I do really respect your education, and you've made me expand my vocabulary, for sure. I might have had to read that sentence twice though.

[Sean Osborne]

I sit and wonder at a time like this, are you teaching your grandkids to talk? 'Cause if you are, there will be some very interesting notes sent to their parents by kindergarten teachers some day...

Not me. I don't have any grandkids and won't have any for some time to come because my sons just turned 16. I've already had run-ins with a couple of their freshman year high school teachers regarding certain topics of "indoctrination" the local NEA insists upon. Those back-to-school meetings left the teachers embarassed in front of the other parents due to their lack of knowledge in Middle Eastern historical and religious issues. They avoid me like the plague these days.