Timing of Rapture

[myinnuendo999]

After considering the as yet unfulfilled prophesy of Psalm 83 it is generally recognized that that will be a victory by IDF over the surrounding Arab (Islamic) states.
However, in view of Ezekiel 38 when Israel defeats the remaining Islamic countries and Russia, God is given the credit for the victory by supernatural intervention.
In those circumstances I would have to conclude that the rapture will occur at the time of Ezekiel 38 as it will be the time when God again calls the Jews "my people"...
and supernatural things begin to happen in rapid succession after that event.

Although to those still living on earth, the final END of Islam will seem to usher in a time of global PEACE & PROSPERITY.

JMHO

I agree with you also and that's a great point you have made as to why maybe the rapture of the Church would take place because God again calls the Jews "my people"



jtvol quote

but I do think we can also make a Biblical analysis of the season we are in, especially considering how late in the season it is.

Paul says in 1Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

[myinnuendo999]

tjplaw said:



TJ, I too doubt the hydrocarbon angle regarding Eze 38:4

After the huge natural gas find, I asked Sean about hydrocarbon being the spoil that serves as hooks in their jaws. He countered (correctly I believe) it is a stretch to place oil and gas in the same class as cattle and goods to be carried off Eze 38:12.

I respectfully disagree brother

Ezekiel 38:12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land."

Ezekiel 38:13 describes Israel rich in livestock and goods and does not say that Russian is going after their cattle and goods. It only says that they are going after plunder and loot and that CAN mean oil and gas--So,it is not a stretch since it does not specifically refer to cattle but only describes Israel's state at that point. We don't know for sure--just what I see the passage reading

[jtvol]

jtvol: but I do think we can also make a Biblical analysis of the season we are in, especially considering how late in the season it is.

myinnuendo999:
Paul says in 1Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

You've got to keep it in context, keep reading 4 verses down:

1Thessalonians 5:1-4
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

also

Matthew 24:33
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

also

Revelation 3:3
3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Ezekiel 38:13 describes Israel rich in livestock and goods and does not say that Russian is going after their cattle and goods. It only says that they are going after plunder and loot and that CAN mean oil and gas--So,it is not a stretch since it does not specifically refer to cattle but only describes Israel's state at that point. We don't know for sure--just what I see the passage reading

I agree, I think its more of a statement of wealth and with the recent discoveries of gas & oil (with the prospect of even more to be found) it does seem to be the case. I wouldn't be dogmatic about that but IMO it is starting to look more and more like the "hook in the jaw".

[tjplaw]

I respectfully disagree brother

Ezekiel 38:12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land."

Ezekiel 38:13 describes Israel rich in livestock and goods and does not say that Russian is going after their cattle and goods. It only says that they are going after plunder and loot and that CAN mean oil and gas--So,it is not a stretch since it does not specifically refer to cattle but only describes Israel's state at that point. We don't know for sure--just what I see the passage reading

I always felt that (plunder and loot) are the intentions of the invading armies after victory, since this happened so many times in the battles of the Old testament. But just who is God angry with?

Verse 38-12 seems to indicate I will capture vast amounts of plunder and take many slaves, for the people are rich with cattle now. Could this mean that Israel plundered and looted those nations defeated in Pslam 83 angering God?

The end of verse 12 seems to indicate just that, stating, (KJV) who live at the center of the world.' Doesn't this indicate an arrogant Israel? that they think the whole world revolves around them! If we know Israels past then yes, the victory in Psalm 83 produces a very arrogant Israel angering God.

The whole of Ezekiel's prophecy produces 2 outcomes:
1. Gods promise to destroy those nations set to destroy Israel, also a judgment against Israel.
God use's one of His greatest tactics against theses attacking nations. Verse 21, I will summon the sword against you throughout Israel, says the Sovereign LORD. Your men will turn against each other in mortal combat.

Verse 19 and 20, 19. For in my jealousy and blazing anger, I promise a mighty shaking in the land of Israel on that day. 20. All living things--all the fish, birds, animals, and people--will quake in terror at my presence. Mountains will be thrown down; cliffs will crumble; walls will fall to the earth.

2. With Israels recent victories, many in Israel may see that it's possible that God has protected them once again, but [U]failed as a nation to give God the Glory, Ezekiel 38-39 produces a humbled Israel, but not a repentant Israel, they will demand a Temple and will sign a peace treaty with the antichrist to get it and begin the sacrificial system.

It will take future events for Israel to fully acknowledge God and the whole of the Tribulation to produce a repentant Israel acknowledging Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

I know that this thread is titled, Timing of Rapture, it is my hope that the Rapture happens before the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, I don't like death and destruction and couldn't stomach to watch such a slaughter.

[Navyblue]

I had posted this link on a separate thread, but I think it’s appropriate to post it here too: Middle East War, Psalm 83 War

It is a webcast/article on the Psalm 83 war. Check it out when you get a chance.

jtvol, Shalom.

Excellent video, all five parts. Once over is insufficient to grasp all they have placed in the teaching, and chronology.

In Messiah, Keep the Watch. Arley

[jtvol]

jtvol, Shalom.

Excellent video, all five parts. Once over is insufficient to grasp all they have placed in the teaching, and chronology.

In Messiah, Keep the Watch. Arley

[GlennO]

TJ

The end of verse 12 seems to indicate just that, stating, (KJV) who live at the center of the world.'

Just to add another perspective to what you have already correctly expressed, knowing that Israel is both God's wife and His timepiece, I continue to marvel that a patch of real estate roughly equivalent to the size of New Jersey occupies the world's breathless attention.

It brings to my mind the image of a basketball player spinning the the ball upon his (or her) index finger-tip. That is Israel's center stage role at this moment of HIStory. As a geopolitical fact, she is the center of the earth, and will be so in the Millennial Kingdom.

[myinnuendo999]

I always felt that (plunder and loot) are the intentions of the invading armies after victory, since this happened so many times in the battles of the Old testament. But just who is God angry with?

Verse 38-12 seems to indicate I will capture vast amounts of plunder and take many slaves, for the people are rich with cattle now. Could this mean that Israel plundered and looted those nations defeated in Pslam 83 angering God?

The end of verse 12 seems to indicate just that, stating, (KJV) who live at the center of the world.' Doesn't this indicate an arrogant Israel? that they think the whole world revolves around them! If we know Israels past then yes, the victory in Psalm 83 produces a very arrogant Israel angering God.

The whole of Ezekiel's prophecy produces 2 outcomes:
1. Gods promise to destroy those nations set to destroy Israel, also a judgment against Israel.
God use's one of His greatest tactics against theses attacking nations. Verse 21, I will summon the sword against you throughout Israel, says the Sovereign LORD. Your men will turn against each other in mortal combat.

Verse 19 and 20, 19. For in my jealousy and blazing anger, I promise a mighty shaking in the land of Israel on that day. 20. All living things--all the fish, birds, animals, and people--will quake in terror at my presence. Mountains will be thrown down; cliffs will crumble; walls will fall to the earth.

2. With Israels recent victories, many in Israel may see that it's possible that God has protected them once again, but [U]failed as a nation to give God the Glory, Ezekiel 38-39 produces a humbled Israel, but not a repentant Israel, they will demand a Temple and will sign a peace treaty with the antichrist to get it and begin the sacrificial system.

It will take future events for Israel to fully acknowledge God and the whole of the Tribulation to produce a repentant Israel acknowledging Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

I know that this thread is titled, Timing of Rapture, it is my hope that the Rapture happens before the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, I don't like death and destruction and couldn't stomach to watch such a slaughter.

very excellent points tiplaw

and I like what you have pointed out to me that I failed to read and consider--thank you

[beameup]

Ezekiel 38-39 produces a humbled Israel, but not a repentant Israel, they will demand a Temple and will sign a peace treaty with the antichrist to get it and begin the sacrificial system.

It will take future events for Israel to fully acknowledge God and the whole of the Tribulation to produce a repentant Israel acknowledging Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

I used to hold that position relating to the temple and antichrist, however in light of Psalm 83 I have reconsidered. I was always of the Hal Lindsey group that felt that all events had to happen in rapid succession (Late Great Planet Earth).

If Israel greatly expands their borders in another Arab-Israeli War then for sure they will take over the whole of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount as well as administration of Arab countries similar to what Gen. MacArthur did in Japan following WWII. Israel will disarm all the Arab states that launched an attack and rightfully could take retribution as well.

There is no reason whatsoever that with control of the Temple Mount the mosque there could be bulldozed and a Temple built. There are lots of archeological discoveries to be made by the Jews in those areas that are now controlled by Arabs. These discoveries will prove conclusively that Israel has historical ties to the land including the Temple Mount.

All this sets the stage for Ezekiel 38-39 where Israel is attacked by remaining regional Islamic States as well as Russia. Obviously between these two wars Israel has gained much wealth. For one thing, the victory of Psalm 83 will attract immigration of Jews and bring much investment capital to Israel.

My position is that these two wars occur prior to the Anti-Christ rising to power. The Anti-Christ treaty could involve Israel giving up its nuclear capability for the "cause of world peace" - and leave them once again vulnerable. It could involve Israel relinquishing their Global Currency - the Shekel - to a global "cashless" system. Or it could involve something else.

At any rate, throughout these wars the Jewish People continue to become more religious and more faithful and thankful to God. I believe they will reinstate the Mosaic Law and daily sacrifices in the Temple. But the one thing that they will fail to do is recognize their ONE SIN, their sin as a people: rejection of Messiah.

[Sean Osborne]

At the fulfillment of Psalm 83, Israel will be prosperous for a time, arrogance by their defeat of it's enemies will create a sense of false security...

tjplaw,

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation on the fulfillment of Psalm 83.

Such a conclusion is not supported by the text of Asaph's inspired inspired imprecatory prayer and prophecy.

No where in the text of Psalm 83 is Jewish economic prosperity implied, nor is any Jewish arrogance resultant from the victory over these enemies.

Concluding verses 15 thru 18 make clear that the fulfillment is actually 100% about the invoked religious conversion of the enemies of God through their military defeat.

So pursue them with Your tempest,
And frighten them with Your storm.
Fill their faces with shame,
That they may seek Your name, O LORD.
Let them be confounded and dismayed forever;
Yes, let them be put to shame and perish,
That they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

The fulfilling result for the "inner ring" enemies will be the abandonment of "allah" and the end of these enemies submission (islam) to that false god.

Circa 3,000 years later, this is the exact same imprecatory prayer believing Christians the world over are lifting up to God in Jesus Name.

[Sean Osborne]

I always felt that (plunder and loot) are the intentions of the invading armies after victory, since this happened so many times in the battles of the Old Testament. But just who is God angry with?

In Ezekiel 38:1-3 the LORD tells us precisely who He is against.

1 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh,[a] Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

And then He tells us why in verses 10-12 and 14-16

10 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— 12 to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land.

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? 15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 16 You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.”

[tjplaw]

tjplaw,

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation on the fulfillment of Psalm 83.

Such a conclusion is not supported by the text of Asaph's inspired inspired imprecatory prayer and prophecy.

No where in the text of Psalm 83 is Jewish economic prosperity implied, nor is any Jewish arrogance resultant from the victory over these enemies.

Concluding verses 15 thru 18 make clear that the fulfillment is actually 100% about the invoked religious conversion of the enemies of God through their military defeat.

The fulfilling result for the "inner ring" enemies will be the abandonment of "allah" and the end of these enemies submission (islam) to that false god.

Circa 3,000 years later, this is the exact same imprecatory prayer believing Christians the world over are lifting up to God in Jesus Name.

Your absolutely right, economic prosperity isn't implied, however, Israel will regain lost territory and resources, ownership of the now occupied areas, Gaza, the West bank and the Golan will be back in Israels control. Israel will become stronger, not weaker, with its military reputation restored.

Biblical nations in Psalm 83.

* Tents of Edom (Palestinians and S. Jordanians)
* Ishmaelites (Saudis - Ishmael father of the Arabs)
* Moab (Palestinians and Central Jordanians)
* Hagrites (Hagarenes - Egyptians)
* Gebal (Hezbollah & N. Lebanese)
* Ammon (Palestinians and N. Jordanians)
* Amalek (Arabs of the Sinai area)
* Philistia (Hamas of the Gaza Strip)
* Tyre (Hezbollah and S. Lebanese)
* Assyria (Syria and N. Iraqis)

In victory, Israel finds itself fulfilling numerous prophecies such as:

* They have become an "exceedingly great army" (Ezekiel. 37:10)
* The execution of judgments on those who despise them (Ezek. 28:25)
* They will then dwell securely. (Ezekiel. 28:26)
* They will acquire Arab lands and great plunder (Obadiah 1:19, Jeremiah 49:2)
* Sovereign International acclaim as "My People Israel" (Ezekiel. 25:14, 38:14,16)
* They will become one of the wealthiest nations on earth (Zephaniah 2:7,9 NRSV)

My conclusion of Israel in the Old Testament is that during their times of prosperity they have become arrogant, self righteous and failed as a nation to give God the Glory He deserves for their blessings, because of this, God has sent Judgments against Israel to Humble the nation.

Many of the nations listed above are Oil rich nations, this implies wealth that comes under control of Israel. The divided land will be divided no more, and Jerusalem will remain a unified city.

The Israeli government approved a controversial security fence 436 miles long, this will more than likely come down, (unwalled village) as Ezekiel 38 requires. Since the borders on all three sides will be safe and the threat of terrorist attacks eliminated. 60 years of war will have finally ended.

A major victory, reclaimed territory and resources to support an influx of Jew returning home and a more powerful military, if this doesn't imply an arrogant and self righteous people, I don't know what does. The battle of Ezekiel will break their attitude of self rightenous and superiority and ensure through God's work that Israel will again acknowledge Him.

When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

[beameup]

Your quote from Ezekiel:
"When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Now think for a minute: under what circumstances would EVERY JEW on the PLANET return to Israel?

BTW: I respectfully disagree as to the "arrogance" of the Israelis following Ps. 83. They have been persecuted to the point of extinction for millennia and yet remain intact as a people. Not only that, but they are some of the most resourceful people on the planet. Even though Ps. 83 seems an IDF victory in self defense, it is the LORD who establishes the current state of Israel, as the real estate (LAND) belongs to God and He has plans for it. Following Ez. 38-39 there will be no doubt as to who gave them the victory.

[GlennO]

Just a guess.............

When church and HS (restrainer) are taken out of the world (whether the USA is a functioning country or not) there will be no other place of safety for the Jews outside of Israel, and real estate will be not be problem as they gain much of the land Jehovah has gifted to them. IMO the extent of the land will be much more like was intended for them before the creation of the Arab League.

How'd I do ?

[tjplaw]

Now think for a minute: under what circumstances would EVERY JEW on the PLANET return to Israel?

BTW: I respectfully disagree as to the "arrogance" of the Israelis following Ps. 83. They have been persecuted to the point of extinction for millennia and yet remain intact as a people. Not only that, but they are some of the most resourceful people on the planet. Even though Ps. 83 seems an IDF victory in self defense, it is the LORD who establishes the current state of Israel, as the real estate (LAND) belongs to God and He has plans for it. Following Ez. 38-39 there will be no doubt as to who gave them the victory.

I didn't write that, God Did. I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

???

[beameup]

I simply meant to ask a question regarding ALL JEWS returning to Israel.
To me it is simply that Israel is the new "land of opportunity" following Psalm 83.
When they conquer the Arabs and confiscate their wealth then a stable Israel will emerge.

That is why I refer to the possibility that the SHEKEL will become the strongest currency in
the world. I speculate this from the emergence of "Mystery Babylon" for it is when in captivity
in Babylon that the Jews learned commerce and finance, and the Babylonian SHEKEL was the currency
later adopted by the Jews in the Holy Land. The SHEKEL is the official currency of Israel today.

Most people are not familiar with the term "petro-dollar", however, since WWII the U.S. Dollar is
TIED to the price of crude oil (crude oil is traded in USD). Iran has been trying to break-up this
superiority of the USD. Russia would like to do the same. When Israel defeats the Arabs they will
DESTROY the OPEC cartel and control the major supply of Middle-East oil.

[Sean Osborne]

Your absolutely right, economic prosperity isn't implied, however, Israel will regain lost territory and resources, ownership of the now occupied areas, Gaza, the West bank and the Golan will be back in Israels control. Israel will become stronger, not weaker, with its military reputation restored.

tjplaw,

Israel will recover and regain far more than just Gaza, Judea and Samaria. Israel will recover all of the territory given in covenant by God. In the aftermath of Psalm 83 Israel's territory will closely resemble that of the Kingdoms of David and Solomon. It is the defeat of these "inner ring" enemy nations, and the subsequent defeat of the "outer ring' enemy nations named by Ezekiel (38/39) which will set the condtions (no enemies around her) that enable the rebuilding of the Temple on the Mount per 1 Kings 5:1-4.

Without going to far askew of the thread topic, I guess it goes almost without saying that having read Bill Salus' book (Isralestine) several times through and having done additional research for both Bill and Dr. David Reagan, I'm just a little bit more than familiar with this and the many inter-related eschatologial issues. They've been discussed at length on several threads of these Rapture Forums, Bill's blogs, the Lamb & Lion Christ in Prophecy blog and on my own blog.

In addition to the prophetic things you have listed above from the proper Biblical sources, I wonder if you are you also aware that the valley burial place of Gog (check out this and this) and the hordes of soldiers of that military confederation is in present day Jordan? No doubt western Jordan falls to Israeli sovereignty as a result of the fulfillment of Psalm 83 and all other related prophecies. Ditto for Syria to the Euphrates River, all of Lebanon and Egyptian Sinai south to Wadi al-Arish.

There is more to come through continuing and expanding eschatological research, but that'll have to wait and become the topic of a new thread coming soon.

[tjplaw]

tjplaw,

Israel will recover and regain far more than just Gaza, Judea and Samaria. Israel will recover all of the territory given in covenant by God. In the aftermath of Psalm 83 Israel's territory will closely resemble that of the Kingdoms of David and Solomon. It is the defeat of these "inner ring" enemy nations, and the subsequent defeat of the "outer ring' enemy nations named by Ezekiel (38/39) which will set the condtions (no enemies around her) that enable the rebuilding of the Temple on the Mount per 1 Kings 5:1-4.

Without going to far askew of the thread topic, I guess it goes almost without saying that having read Bill Salus' book (Isralestine) several times through and having done additional research for both Bill and Dr. David Reagan, I'm just a little bit more than familiar with this and the many inter-related eschatologial issues. They've been discussed at length on several threads of these Rapture Forums, Bill's blogs, the Lamb & Lion Christ in Prophecy blog and on my own blog.

In addition to the prophetic things you have listed above from the proper Biblical sources, I wonder if you are you also aware that the valley burial place of Gog (check out this and this) and the hordes of soldiers of that military confederation is in present day Jordan? No doubt western Jordan falls to Israeli sovereignty as a result of the fulfillment of Psalm 83 and all other related prophecies. Ditto for Syria to the Euphrates River, all of Lebanon and Egyptian Sinai south to Wadi al-Arish.

There is more to come through continuing and expanding eschatological research, but that'll have to wait and become the topic of a new thread coming soon.

I agree, normally I don't read others views (books) on end time prophecy. I like Jack Kelleys website mainly because his interpretation of end times scripture follows mine very closely.

I believe that end-time prophecy (details and timeline) are hidden from the Church, we have our own work of creating disciples throughout the world, The Great Commission, and God has His work, Prophecy. However The Holy Spirit has given many the gift of a watchmen, like so many here.
Israel desperately needs to be continually lifted up in prayer.

I look forward to your future posts. Blessings to you.

[Sean Osborne]

I believe that end-time prophecy (details and timeline) are hidden from the Church...

I am of the view that both details (new prophetic insights to be more precise) and a much clarified timeline have emerged within the past decade and within the past five years in particular through the guidance of the Ruach HaKodesh.

These new developments, born as much of gifted spiritual insight and guided research of prophetic Biblical templates, are the cutting edge of eschatological discussions that have erupted in a major way over just the past two years. The Lord's Spirit is working very powerfully in these things.

Presenting these new eschatological findings to Christians in all stages of their spiritual development, as well as to those who are fence-sitters and the unsaved, is extremely rewarding. The prophetic precision of God's Word convicts one and all absolutely, not only about the current season and our role in it, but to the inerrancy of the rest of His Word.

All of the signs and manifestations of things which preceded Christ's first coming are with us again, here and now, in the days immediately preceding His Second coming. From "Alpha to Omega," they are with us right here, right now. The closer we get to that day the more they'll be manifest in this world.

[tjplaw]

I am of the view that both details (new prophetic insights to be more precise) and a much clarified timeline have emerged within the past decade and within the past five years in particular through the guidance of the Ruach HaKodesh.

These new developments, born as much of gifted spiritual insight and guided research of prophetic Biblical templates, are the cutting edge of eschatological discussions that have erupted in a major way over just the past two years. The Lord's Spirit is working very powerfully in these things.

Presenting these new eschatological findings to Christians in all stages of their spiritual development, as well as to those who are fence-sitters and the unsaved, is extremely rewarding. The prophetic precision of God's Word convicts one and all absolutely, not only about the current season and our role in it, but to the inerrancy of the rest of His Word.

All of the signs and manifestations of things which preceded Christ's first coming are with us again, here and now, in the days immediately preceding His Second coming. From "Alpha to Omega," they are with us right here, right now. The closer we get to that day the more they'll be manifest in this world.

We have to be careful and give God the Glory for all the research and the cutting edge of eschatological discussions, no matter how gifted we feel we are. Only God knows the time line.