Is the Coming Mideast War the Wrath of Man or God? by Bill Salus

[ftwspursfan]

PROPHECY NEWS-STAND: Is the coming Mideast War the wrath of man or God?

Recently, my good friend Terry James , best selling author and co-founder of Raptureready.com, sent me an email from a gentleman who wondered about my position on the Pre-Trib Rapture. Additionally, the gentlemen expressed the concerns below about concluding comments made in my article, “Mideast Wars Could Break Out Tomorrow.”

The gentlemen wrote: “The Tribulation may be worse than the scenario described in Bill’s article, but frankly I do not see how much worse it could get. What Bill Salus is talking about is widespread death do to war and famine. He is talking about starvation, on a massive scale, utter societal breakdown and riots, with murder and violence sure to escalate beyond anything we could imagine due to hunger. So, if that were to happen I ask the question: How is this NOT as bad as the Tribulation. And if this is not God's Wrath, then what is it? This is the sort of suffering that would test the church. Honestly, Terry, if this were to happen I would more than likely conclude that there is no pre-trib Rapture.”

“As an aside, how many folks do you know who have $20,000.00 cash on hand? I certainly do not. No one on my street is even a Christian. It would be every man for himself on my street. No one would be safe if the scenario that Salus describes were to unfold.”

Here is my response to these comments:

I, like Terry James, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dr. David Reagan, and a host of others, am so Pre-Trib that I don't even eat post toasties. Regarding the Tribulation, its commencement point is the signing of the false covenant in Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:15, 18.

The Mideast wars I'm on the lookout for are described in Psalm 83, Isaiah 17:1, and Ezekiel 38 & 39. I believe Isaiah 17:1 will either precede or occur within the Psalm 83 event. I believe all of these wars are Pre-Trib events.

The Church could be Raptured before, during, or after any of these wars. The only prerequisite of the Rapture is that it will occur before or concurrent with the confirmation of the false covenant between the Antichrist and Israel.

more at PROPHECY NEWS-STAND: Is the coming Mideast War the wrath of man or God?

[ftwspursfan]

This is a very interesting article and I liked it a lot. I do wonder, though, if there is going to be several years in between a regional war and the greater conflict of Gog/Magog? I hope Sean and some others will weigh in on this but let me spell out my thoughts.

Israel is going to be living in safety as soon as they finish off their nearby neighbors in the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17 War. Think about it, more than half the Muslim terror organizations will be obliterated, and many of the Muslim countries that despise Israel will be wiped out or weakened into nothing. Israel will have a sense of peace but it will come at a heavy price. They will have been struck hard in their cities and they will have used most of their weapons in this war. They will have enlarged their land but I question whether they will become wealthy as a result of this war. There is no oil in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan or Egypt and I'm not sure they will get control of the Saudi oil because Sheba and Dedan are mentioned as Ezek 38/39 participants.

If Israel is weak, why would a Russian confederation wait to go after her? Iran and Turkey will be screaming for revenge. The rest of the world is going to be furious about Israel's nuke strike(s). The US will stay out of it and let Russia take the lead. If the US has not stopped providing financial and military support to Israel, then it will stop immediately after Israel launches nukes. I just don't see a long period between these wars, only a few months at best.

Where Israel will gain wealth and tremendous strength would be after Gog/Magog. No one will mess with her in light of what our God will do to protect her. Israel would control almost all the world's supply of oil. With a 7 year period of using the products of war, I can see a 3 year period or so of Israeli prosperity before the covenant with the AC. That would put the end of the weapons burning right in the middle of the trib. Then the AOD and the Great Trib period starts.

Someone please tell me where I might be wrong and why Salus thinks Israel will gain prosperity between Psalms 83 and Gog/Magog. I just don't see it.

[ftwspursfan]

By the way, I think the "hook", besides revenge and using UN resolutions, could just be a land grab by Russia. In Epicenter, Joel Rosenberg talks about his meeting with Alexi Mitrofanov, the man behind Zhirinovsky and Putin. Mitrofanov thinks Zhirinovsky could be back big in the picture of Russia by 2012 if not sooner. Further, Mitrofanov says that Zhirinovsky wants to reestablish the Byzantine Empire. Pgs 142-145 of Epicenter.

Russia would have much power and control of land plus the Muslims would be forever indebted to the Bear. Russia would gain huge wealth and great prominence by just going after the 'land'.

[mikhen7]

You stated:

If the US has not stopped providing financial and military support to Israel, then it will stop immediately after Israel launches nukes.

I was listening to an author of a best selling book today who said that the reason we were being attacked is because of Israel. If we would just cut ties that the muslims would leave us alone. I am paraphrasing but it was to that effect. I was shocked!

That type of thinking will spread like wildfire in America. I just think it will cause a multitude of people to protest our alliance with Israel. They forget that radical Islam hates the Christians as much as the Jews.

[ftwspursfan]

You stated:



I was listening to an author of a best selling book today who said that the reason we were being attacked is because of Israel. If we would just cut ties that the muslims would leave us alone. I am paraphrasing but it was to that effect. I was shocked!

That type of thinking will spread like wildfire in America. I just think it will cause a multitude of people to protest our alliance with Israel. They forget that radical Islam hates the Christians as much as the Jews.

Well, we know BHO believes Israel is the problem and he has been saying that since his speech in Cairo early last year. Now, many others are jumping on that bandwagon with the false belief that Islamists will leave us alone. Lame, lame, lame, lame, LAME!!!

[mattfivefour]

Well, we know BHO believes Israel is the problem and he has been saying that since his speech in Cairo early last year. Now, many others are jumping on that bandwagon with the false belief that Islamists will leave us alone. Lame, lame, lame, lame, LAME!!!

I agree!

[myinnuendo999]

Quote from ftwspursfan

Israel is going to be living in safety as soon as they finish off their nearby neighbors in the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17 War. Think about it, more than half the Muslim terror organizations will be obliterated, and many of the Muslim countries that despise Israel will be wiped out or weakened into nothing. Israel will have a sense of peace but it will come at a heavy price.

My question to your comment is," If Israel wipes out all the enemies around them,, what is the point in making Peace? Peace with who?

I am getting 2 different views from respectable prophecy teachers and I'm to the point that I would just rather WAIT and SEE, then to debate who is right and who is wrong. For, only God knows the future. I listen to Jimmy DeYoung, John Ankerberg, Read articles from Joel Rosenberg and then Bill Salus and I'm not sure how to reconcile them..

So back to what this thread is really about?? I think the WRATH of God will be during the 7 years and our sins are what bring about the consequences of man's actions when it comes to "what we sew is what we reap"now.

[Sean Osborne]

I agree with Bill Salus' response to the gentleman's question. The same things Bill describes as accompanying or in the wake of warfare have occured in all regional global wars of the recent past. These terrirble things are the natural result of man's wars. Moreover as mankinds ability to wage war increases expotentially due to technological advancement so too will the accompanying pestilences, famine, starvation, homelessness and displacement of non-combatants increase expotentially.

The prophetic Word of God could not be more clear on this subject. However, for the average American, even the Word of God is almost inconcievable on such things (but we take it on Faith) because Americans (and Canadians) have lived securely within our borders for nearly 200 years and are now several generations removed from direct experience in the realities of what war brings with it. Those days are about over.

With respect to Israel and the wealth and territorial expansion that accompany the coming war - the Word of God reveals that while Israel's population will suffer losses, the infrastructure of the country will apparently be spared by the Will of God. It is this intact infrastructure which will facilitate the expansion and exploitation of new resources - creating tremendous wealth and goods and security - much as America expanded and grew expotentially in the aftermath of World War II. Israel will emerge a true superpower.

Get a copy of Isralestine, the Scripture reference will make these things more apparent than this little post does.

[GlennO]

TO THE GENTLEMAN....for posterity

“ So, if that were to happen I ask the question: How is this NOT as bad as the Tribulation. And if this is not God's Wrath, then what is it? This is the sort of suffering that would test the church. Honestly, Terry, if this were to happen I would more than likely conclude that there is no pre-trib Rapture.”

The Gentleman's premise is flawed (maybe in denial) equating the (the fallout..heh-heh... /pun intended) resulting from Israel reactively or preemptively eliminating the threats clearly articulated by her neighbors is not unique to world history (Bibi has reiterated - Never Again!). The Tribulation will be a singularly unique set of judgments upon the earth and the people left behind.

No one on my street is even a Christian. It would be every man for himself on my street.

How about not being insulated from the neighbors. As the H.S. leads, interact with your neighbors. Build alliances with some of them. You may be the only Bible they ever read. I'm a retired firefighter so pre-planning what to do in advance of a major incident is natural to me. This thought-process has been drilled into me throughout my adult life. So I'm trying to help you get a grip on certain inevitabilities. I can tell you developing a plan for a fire fight while the major incident is underway is unwise. I’m just trying to help you not be helpless or hopeless.

“As an aside, how many folks do you know who have $20,000.00 cash on hand?

If you're not in debt and you are gainfully employed why could you not accumulate an emergency reserve of say, $7,500 over the course of a year. Have a goal, be prepared for natural and man-made disruptions. At least make a start get a couple months ahead.

If you are in debt (not talking about due to layoffs, catastrophic medical issues...etc), sell the car you're making payments on and buy something less pretty that you can own outright (this is basic Dave Ramsey - financial management 101). Look what has occurred in Greece when the Nanny State'rs" (socialists) get their benefits cut. We abandoned a generation of youth and they have, in-turn, been taught by a previous generation of (for the most part) Leftists. They should have been taught principles instead of rights. Yes, mobs on your street would be threatening even terrifying, but such things do happen. This is called tribulation. Many Christians around the world are singled out and deprived of liberty for their beliefs right now.

But Tribulation (in the biblical sense) is a different matter all together. That last 3.5 year period is when God pours out his wrath upon the earth and the people remaining on the Earth. Mercifully, we who trust in Jesus are not will not be her, for God has not appointed us to [His] Wrath.

[myinnuendo999]

I think that this person has what is called hindsight bias-the tendency to view events as more predictable than they really are.

I don't think we really know how absolutely horrible it is going to be. God's grace has held back the tidal wave of his wrath for almost 2000 years

Jesus said in Mat 24:22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mar 13:20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Sounds pretty bad to me compared to now

I don't remember how Vernon McGee put it, but he made a very good point by basically saying, that if THIS is the tribulation then why is the world enjoying T-bone steaks

[mattfivefour]

TO THE GENTLEMAN....for posterity



The Gentleman's premise is flawed (maybe in denial) equating the (the fallout..heh-hehpun intended) resulting from Israel reactively or preemptively eliminating the threats clearly articulated by her neighbors is not unique to world history (Bibi has reiterated - Never Again!). The Tribulation will be a singularly unique set of judgments upon the earth and the people left behind.




How about not being insulated from the neighbors. As the H.S. leads, interact with your neighbors. Build alliances with some of them. You may be the only Bible they ever read. I'm a retired firefighter so pre-planning what to do in advance of a major incident is natural to me. This thought-process has been drilled into me throughout my adult life. So I'm trying to help you get a grip on certain inevitabilities. I can tell you developing a plan for a fire fight while the major incident is underway is unwise. I’m just trying to help you not be helpless or hopeless.



If you're not in debt and you are gainfully employed why could you not accumulate an emergency reserve of say, $7,500 over the course of a year. Have a goal, be prepared for natural and man-made disruptions. At least make a start get a couple months ahead.

If you are in debt (not talking about due to layoffs, catastrophic medical issues...etc), sell the car you're making payments on and buy something less pretty that you can own outright (this is basic Dave Ramsey - financial management 101). Look what has occurred in Greece when the Nanny State'rs" (socialists) get their benefits cut. We abandoned a generation of youth and they have, in-turn, been taught by a generation by a previous generation of (for the most part) Leftists. They should have been taught principles instead of rights. Yes, mobs on your street would be threatening even terrifying, but such things do happen. This is called tribulation. Many Christians around the world are singled out and deprived of liberty for their beliefs right now.

But Tribulation (in the biblical sense) is a different matter all together. That last 3.5 year period is when God pours out his wrath upon the earth and the people remaining on the Earth. Mercifully, we who trust in Jesus are not will not be her, for God has not appointed us to [His] Wrath.

Good post, Glenn.

[mattfivefour]

I don't remember how Vernon McGee put it, but he made a very good point by basically saying, that if THIS is the tribulation then why is the world enjoying T-bone steaks

Excellent point. I love the way Dr. McGee puts things.

And as you say, sis, "I don't think we really know how absolutely horrible it (the Great Tribulation) is going to be."

[GlennO]

ftwspursfan -

Israel is going to be living in safety as soon as they finish off their nearby neighbors in the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17 War. Think about it, more than half the Muslim terror organizations will be obliterated, and many of the Muslim countries that despise Israel will be wiped out or weakened into nothing. Israel will have a sense of peace but it will come at a heavy price. They will have been struck hard in their cities and they will have used most of their weapons in this war.

Well said. I agree.

The way you described this brought to mind David and Goliath the Philistine. After David dropped Goliath, the Philistines fled in disarray. Eventually the "bully people" regrouped and they remain a pest to God's Chosen to this day. Sounds like they will be thumped again followed by another pause, then Turkey, Russia and Iran are drawn (as if by led by hooks) into their ultimate demise.

They will have enlarged their land but I question whether they will become wealthy as a result of this war. There is no oil in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan or Egypt and I'm not sure they will get control of the Saudi oil because Sheba and Dedan are mentioned as Ezek 38/39 participants.

I'm still reading Israelestine. I haven't reached a satisfactory conjecture regarding the "wealth" and "spoil" part. Maybe the value of the Dead Sea deposits will come into play somehow? The new Levant natural gas field off Israel's coast exceeds Russia's reserves (prior to the discovery Russia was #1), but I don't know how that squares with spoil being carried off .

Exciting times!

Glenn

[ftwspursfan]

Thanks Glenn, that was helpful! I don't have a copy of Isralestine but it will be my only request for a Father's Day gift next month.

My one continuing question is that I do not foresee any real time in between the regional war and Gog/Magog. Salus thinks there will be a few years in between but I don't see it. I think Iran and Turkey's bloodlust for revenge will push Russia into action within months. Ezekiel 38:11 NIV is the only Bible version that says that the attack will be "a surprise"against unsuspecting people. The other versions say that the attack will come against people at rest. Israel would be 'resting' by just recovering from the effects of the Psalms 83 War. If Israel has a few years in between then she will have time to regain some weapons also and that does not compute with what we know of Gog/Magog. I think a worn-out and weakened Israel, though victorious against their near neighbors, would be too tempting for the Russian alliance to resist.

Do we have a consensus that Gog/Magog will have to occur at least 3.5 yrs prior to the covenant with the AC? I'll restate that I think Israel will gain their vast wealth after Gog/Magog and not before. I'm not ironclad in that thought pattern but it seems most reasonable to me.

If Israelestine answers these questions, then I CANNOT wait to get my hands on that book. Sean, Glenn, Chris, and anyone else, please enlighten me on all this.

[GlennO]

I gather you are Mike - if so, nice site you've got there...I figured since I saw the term Goofiness there you must have something to do with it!

IMO there are so many variables and linkages, it is too much for me to compute. I'm 200 pages into Israelestine 115 to go. I lean toward the premise that Mr.Salus is putting out there. It seems to me to be just like how the Lord works, His shedding light on an obscure piece of the Word to a completed Hebrew.

I think of Matthew Henry as he commented 250 years ago on the "valley of dry bones". He said (essentially) that God is able to accomplish his plan, and he did not climb aboard the Replacement Theology train. I never gave a thought to Psalms containing unfulfilled prophesy. Sure there was plenty of Messianic prophesy but that was done deal (obviously I'm not a deep scholar).

I just think we're seriously into the Birth Pangs (but I thought we were there in 1980 too). I cannot reconcile so many smart scholars overlooking the "pregnant" significance of NONE of Israel neighbors being mentioned in the Ezekiel 37-39 studies and teachings was not addressed by the great number of fine teachers I have been exposed to over the years. Sure we understood Isaiah said Damascus would be nuked. No Problem. Another example, what I learned was the Edomites were already history in Obadiah because of Esau’s grudge against Jacob in Genesis 27:41, tidy, I had no reason to dig further. In my mind, Jeremiah had prophesied in Chapter 49 against 8 M.E. tribes most of whom Israel has already kicked their hind parts. THE BIG question when brothers in the Lord get together and start slicing and dicing the end-times stuff has always been was “Are we here or gone when Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog war goes down”. I may have some company here or I may be a lone ranger.

So that describes my mindset and relative understanding of the end time scenarios none of which I am wedded to. In fact the scenarios bubble continuously through my mind like the bubbles in a lava lamp.

My one continuing question is that I do not foresee any real time in between the regional war and Gog/Magog. Salus thinks there will be a few years in between but I don't see it. I think Iran and Turkey's bloodlust for revenge will push Russia into action within months. Ezekiel 38:11 NIV is the only Bible version that says that the attack will be "a surprise"against unsuspecting people.

Well, the NIV is a thought-for-thought translation, but I’m not hung up at that level.

The other versions say that the attack will come against people at rest. Israel would be 'resting' by just recovering from the effects of the Psalms 83 War. If Israel has a few years in between then she will have time to regain some weapons also and that does not compute with what we know of Gog/Magog. I think a worn-out and weakened Israel, though victorious against their near neighbors, would be too tempting for the Russian alliance to resist

That is a very tight window with the understanding we have at this time. But I will say this Israel born in 1948. Glenn born in 1949. If the Lord gives me length of days I expect to witness all these things...some from a sky-box!

Do we have a consensus that Gog/Magog will have to occur at least 3.5 yrs prior to the covenant with the AC? I'll restate that I think Israel will gain their vast wealth after Gog/Magog and not before. I'm not ironclad in that thought pattern but it seems most reasonable to me.

I honestly can’t say with 115 pages to go. But, I have never held fast to the premise that the Gog/Magog scenario was the trigger for the Rapture. I’m a pre-trib guy, I follow Revelation chapter 3:19 as the key. The church is present Chapters 1 -3. No mention of the Bride on the earth after Chapter 3. Festivities and worship and the Bema Seat during Chapters 4-5. I am open to the idea that things may be badly deteriorating and the bride being roughed up before Jesus calls up His Bride. I stand fast on the point that we are not around at Revelation Chapter 6 where God’s Wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth in a manner never before seen in history! He has not appointed us to Wrath. Yes 3.5 years takes us from the pact and takes us to the A/C breaking the pact and desecrating the Temple. Obviously, rebuilding the Temple is not going to be a union job…It couldn’t be done in 3.5 years. .

Hope you enjoy the conversation...I do! Iron Sharpening Iron

Glenn

[ftwspursfan]

IMO there are so many variables and linkages, it is too much for me to compute. I'm 200 pages into Israelestine 115 to go. I lean toward the premise that Mr.Salus is putting out there. It seems to me to be just like how the Lord works, His shedding light on an obscure piece of the Word to a completed Hebrew.

I think of Matthew Henry as he commented 250 years ago on the "valley of dry bones". He said (essentially) that God is able to accomplish his plan, and he did not climb aboard the Replacement Theology train. I never gave a thought to Psalms containing unfulfilled prophesy. Sure there was plenty of Messianic prophesy but that was done deal (obviously I'm not a deep scholar).

I'm not a deep scholar either, just a guy who loves studying scripture, especially prophecy. I was late to the party in regards to Psalms 83 as I just heard/read about it in 2008. Bill Salus has done his homework and I think the Lord allowed Bill to unravel a mystery that seemed to have prophecy scholars puzzled for a long time.

I just think we're seriously into the Birth Pangs (but I thought we were there in 1980 too). I cannot reconcile so many smart scholars overlooking the "pregnant" significance of NONE of Israel neighbors being mentioned in the Ezekiel 37-39 studies and teachings was not addressed by the great number of fine teachers I have been exposed to over the years. Sure we understood Isaiah said Damascus would be nuked. No Problem. Another example, what I learned was the Edomites were already history in Obadiah because of Esau’s grudge against Jacob in Genesis 27:41, tidy, I had no reason to dig further. In my mind, Jeremiah had prophesied in Chapter 49 against 8 M.E. tribes most of whom Israel has already kicked their hind parts. THE BIG question when brothers in the Lord get together and start slicing and dicing the end-times stuff has always been was “Are we here or gone when Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog war goes down”. I may have some company here or I may be a lone ranger.

I'd like to think we'll still be here but I know you think like I do that there is nothing that has to happen before the rapture. I kinda hope we're still here for both wars to see the reaction of all the church people who scoff at me right now. Can you imagine the end-times sermons that will hit when we see these events really happen?

So that describes my mindset and relative understanding of the end time scenarios none of which I am wedded to. In fact the scenarios bubble continuously through my mind like the bubbles in a lava lamp.

I like that lava lamp description!

That is a very tight window with the understanding we have at this time. But I will say this Israel born in 1948. Glenn born in 1949. If the Lord gives me length of days I expect to witness all these things...some from a sky-box!

It is a tight window, but imagine how PO'd the whole world is going to be at Israel for setting off nukes regardless of the chem or bio warheads that the Arabs use. I still stumble on the 'hook', as many people do, but I think it may be a lot simpler than we think, ie: Big Brother Russia defending their Arab friends who got beat up by a little 'punk' country. This Russian Coalition could look much like the coalitions the US has formed 2x against Iraq and, like Iraq, everyone would think Israel is doomed.

I honestly can’t say with 115 pages to go. But, I have never held fast to the premise that the Gog/Magog scenario was the trigger for the Rapture. I’m a pre-trib guy, I follow Revelation chapter 3:19 as the key. The church is present Chapters 1 -3. No mention of the Bride on the earth after Chapter 3. Festivities and worship and the Bema Seat during Chapters 4-5. I am open to the idea that things may be badly deteriorating and the bride being roughed up before Jesus calls up His Bride. I stand fast on the point that we are not around at Revelation Chapter 6 where God’s Wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth in a manner never before seen in history! He has not appointed us to Wrath. Yes 3.5 years takes us from the pact and takes us to the A/C breaking the pact and desecrating the Temple. Obviously, rebuilding the Temple is not going to be a union job…It couldn’t be done in 3.5 years. .

My thinking on Gog/Magog being at least 3.5 yrs before the covenant is simply based on the 7 yr time frame for Israel using those discarded weapons and equipment as fuel. 7 yrs, in this thought line, would be right near the mid-point/Great Trib, when Israel will run for the hills(Petra) away from the AC. In regards to the Temple, I don't think construction would take that long especially if it is after Gog/Magog. Israel will be one of the most powerful and richest countries on earth with no enemies nearby, and no one to protest a Temple being built.

Hope you enjoy the conversation...I do! Iron Sharpening Iron
Glenn

I do indeed!