Sean. As you no doubt perceived, my question was Socratic. But by the time you answered I had rather come to the same conclusion as you. Glad you posted.
Ezekiel 39:28-29 - 28Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
If the Gog and Magog in Rev 20 is a different Gog and Magog, then why isn't it explained in scripture?
On the contrary, Scripture does explain the differences if one pays attention to what the text actually says and what it does not say.
In Ezekiel 38-39 Gog, chief prince of Rosh, Magog, Meshech and Tubal has a specified and limited number of allies named in the subsequent verses. In modern terms they are Turkey, Iran, Libya and Sudan. God destroys only 5/6th of this invading force. This force comes against the whole of Israel to plunder. The "saints" are not present in Jerusalem at this time.
In Revelation 20 the time period is specifically AFTER the 1000 year Millenium reign of Christ, which is 1000 years after the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week), and the nations which comprise Gog and Magog are not a limited and specific group but "the nations which are in the four corners of the earth" and whose number "is as the sand of the sea." These enemies come to surround "the camp of the saints and the beloved city." God devours all of these enemies with fire from heaven; i.e. there are no survivors.
Hope this helps your understanding of the Scriptures.
I agree, Sean...
Just a thought.
In Messiah. Arley
Hello all that have replied. Some interesting things came of this thread. However I was still looking for thoughts on how Israel will be at peace and have unmanned walls.
What are your thoughts on how this will happen? Thanks
Possibly through the creation of a Palistinian state where they have a cease fire as a condition...just a guess.
Hebrew language source text.
Verse 8 describes Israel as it was in the mid-20th century AD, and concludes with the statment "and they shall dwell safely all of them."
"They shall" is future tense, not present tense. The next word dwellis the Hebrew word yashab meaning to dwell or inhabit and the word which follow that is betach meaning in security or safety.
Verse 8 describes Gog coming against an Israel that has been returned to the land that had been taken from them by (Roman) conquest (the sword). Then there's a comma, a pause, and then the Lord says, in the future tense, "and they shall dwell safely all of them." This is the end-result, the future reality that will be Israel.
Verse 11 and 12 are actually the same, and together they say:
"And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, to take a spoil, and to take a prey;"
The unwalled villages are pĕrazah which has the meaning of a plain, open region as opposed to militarily fortified cities. This is a description of Israel today. Most of the world lives in the exact same condition -- the overwhelming majority of people on planet earth do not live in fortified locations as they did in the now distant past.
The verse continues to describe israel as being at rest, shaqat, meaning a quiet, peaceful, unharassed. In other words this describes an Israel no one dares to mess with by force of arms or terrorism.
This describes the Israel that will exist in the post-Isaiah 17 and post Psalm 83 era. Even the present day Wahhabist Saudi Arabians, who right now in our time despise the mere existence of Israel will not so much as bat an eye, and will be at peace with Israel. These are the same Saudi Arabians who are currently offering the Russians a massive multi-trillion dollar weapons purchase to woo them away from their Persian allies in Iran. This speaks to the current Middle East paradigm that is about to be massively and permanently altered according to The Word.
One thought, Sean-- betach also means "trust" or "reliance". For example the Hebrew exhortation: "Yisrael betach b'hashem" translates as "O Israel, trust in God (literally: in the Name)" or "O Israel, rely on God." I just add that because it gives another perspective to that last clause in Ezekiel 38:8-- "... and they shall dwell safely, all of them." It could also be accurately translated "and they shall dwell in trust, all of them." Thus the people who are brought back out of all nations shall dwell in trust, relying on God to protect them ... hence the unwalled villages. Just a thought.
-------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a
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Finally, the Gog/Magog event is the event that God will likely use to change his focus from the church back to Israel.
Here's a link we have on the main site that gives what I believe is the sequence of end times events. You might find it informative.
End Times Timeline
I believe the attempted military invasion of Israel by the Gog Allliance occurs well prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.
This allows for the full 7-years of fuel burning. It is those 7 years which I also believe is a final "week of years" prior to the start of Daniels 70th Week.
As rapidly as things seem to occur in this world, they do not occur over night. Time is required for additional events to occur and for the office which will be the power-base of the Antichrist to be fully established and matured.
This is a time period which is also subsequent to the Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 war, and which allows for the rebuilding of the Temple and for the conditions necessary for the establishment of the Antichrist's treaty (covenant) among the many nations which he will confirm.
I do not believe this Antichrist treaty is an Arab-Israeli peace treaty per se. I believe this treaty, due to the brand new global power structure paradigm Israel's military victories make manifest, will be a de facto acknowledgment, an acceptance of the new global power paradigm, of Israel's status as a global military and economic superpower. In this treaty Israel will be allied to the West. So will Iraq. Both nations will play host to the "Roman" antichrist, just as his precursor Antiochus IV Epiphanes had his capitals in Babylon (Iraq) and in the Temple (Jerusalem). After 3 1/2 years the Antichrist will unilaterally abrogate the treaty (covenant) and the Great Tribulation commences. At this point 3 1/2 years remain until the literal Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom on Earth.
This is to say that at that time I believe the "inner ring" of enemy Arab states surrounding Israel are a thing of the past. They no longer exist as enemy states. Damascus, Syria no longer exists. The Russian-led military power of the CSTO will be non-existent by this time as a direct result of the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39. The disappearance of these nations and their military power will WITHOUT QUESTION create a geo-political-military power vacuum. Some one or some thing will have to fill that vacuum.
The major powers in the world in that time, the ones who will fill that vacuum, will be the EU-led West, Israel, southern Africa, and the Kings of the East. The Treaty (covenant among many) will do for that coming world power structure what the establishment of the United Nations did for the post-World War II world.
Last edited by Sean Osborne; October-23rd-2009 at 04:11 PM.
I agree with Chris...
So are we saying theres still much more time than we perceive, for the Lords return.
Its getting painful waiting for that day to happen, and see our blessed Lords face
Last edited by pjosiah; November-9th-2009 at 04:49 AM. Reason: addressed to right person
The heart yearns to see you soon Lord; yet Lord help me to keep the fight on, and avoid any escapist attitude!
No, "we" absolutely are not saying that. The return of Jesus Christ is a two-fold occurance.
The Harpazo occurs first. The Father will send His Son to take His Bride at a time only the Father knows. The Harpazo is an imminent event and very literally will happen at any instant and when we least expect it. We know it will happen prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th Week, but that's all we know about when. His return for us will be accomplished with us rising to meet Him in the air, in the twinkling of an eye.
After the Harpazo occurs Daniel's 70th Week will occur. That 7-year period is divided into 42 month segments. The first is the Tribulation. The second is the Great Tribulation. We know with absolute certainty that at the end of the Great Tribulation Jesus Christ will return as King of kings and Lord of lords to this earth, and He will return with with us to establish His Millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem. In this return the Lord's feet will literally set down upon the earth.
What we are saying is that between now and the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week the Harpazo will occur and the "Bride of Christ" will be transformed in an instant into our eternal bodies and be translated into heaven with Christ. This could occur at any moment.
The last days events which transire on earth in literal 24-hour days that include the fulfillment of Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and 39 and then Daniel's 70th Week will require a certain amount of time to transpire. I personally believe that amount of time is approximately 18-19 years from right now. I base this on Psalm 90:10 and that this generation is a generation of strength (80 years). 1948 AD (Establishment of the Fig Tree/Israel) + 80 years = 2028 AD.
The pain for those who do not accept the covering Blood of the Lamb and His Salvation from sin and eternal separation from God will pale in comparison. Waiting for our Groom to harpazo us away is done with great patience, imminent expectancy and great joy because of the victory He was won eternally over death and sin.Its getting painful waiting for that day to happen, and see our blessed Lords face
Excellent post, brother.And (may I add?) without anxiety or fear of anything.Waiting for our Groom to harpazo us away is done with great patience, imminent expectancy and great joy because of the victory He was won eternally over death and sin.
-------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a
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