Living in the trees of "High Churchville" while the rest of the forest suffers

[mikhen7]

This most likely a deeper topic than a simple post could cover without getting to drawn out but I wanted to post and understand what others think as well. Last night I was under conviction concerning men and women in the pews that really do nothing week after week but write a check to the church. I praise God they are willing to do that, God's work needs to be supported! I wanted to get that out of the way first because it's importance can not be underscored enough. But it is not where I want to go with this.

I want to get your opinion on church ministry. It would be good if there were a central church full of God-loving, Bible-believing, Christ-honoring, loving one another people who took the ministry into their neighborhoods. But in what I have seen this is not the case. Instead I see the members going because of the "Perks" the church can offer for their children and for themselves in most cases. Before you drag me through the gutter consider this: These churches have children's ministries that are huge. They have huge playgrounds, game rooms full of the latest in electronic gadgetry and movies galore. They serve continental breakfasts to each child and give them milk and cookie breaks. At least one hour of the two they are there is simply play. There is, however, worship service and bible study provided. Sounds good huh? The bulk of the membership is coming because of this. On the other hand one of the churches offers breakfast or early lunch to the members. In this one you can worship in the sanctuary or at a dinner table while eating and watching church on the big screen.

The Bible teaches that God bestows gifts on the members of the church to do the work of ministry. We all are aware of this. They can be from serving, to giving, to music ministry, to preaching and teaching. But in these two churches alone, after interviewing many members, their are hundreds of men and women called to lead, teach, preach, and sing but are not doing it because there are only so many slots for this. So instead, because of the "Perks" and complete unaccountability that comes in huge crowds, they vegetate Sunday after Sunday never fulfilling the ministry God bestowed upon them.

Some one please tell me I am foolish or there is something wrong with this picture! While dozens of churches in the city are on their knees begging fo someone to play the piano or teach a class the ones gifted to do so are sitting in a pew or at a dinner table for church on the other side of town. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a wake-up call?

IMO it is time these churches branch out. It is time to get out of your comfort zone and start witnessing, evangelizing, and practicing your spiritual gift. There are churches in need out there. They may be small, they may be dirty, maybe the floors are not carpeted or they are in bad shape. Maybe the roof leaks or the building needs painted. But in these areas are living souls that God created.

It is time that the church started being church. Am I wrong?

God Bless

Here is a solution to consider: It is quite possible that most church-goers are not aware of the needs in the community. A publication that makes these needs known may be what is in order. What are some other ideas? Or what are some ways to get the word out? Maybe I am being too optimistic? I do believe God promises to supply our needs personally and as a church body. I do not believe that churches that dot a city landscape are all washed up unless there is just no population around them. Some will stay small but they still have ministry needs. Is it asking too much for us to leave our comfort zones?

[Meg]

Interesting question...

[micah719]

The same points were addressed in the 6-video series I posted recently. Church isn't supposed to be a spectator sport, a lecture hall or a social club, not is it a welfare provider for the world, a building or an organisation. Too much Roman baggage still in our caboose, no wonder things aren't working out. Long past due time we got back to being Family....sell those empty buildings, and get back to NT principles.

[SonSeeker]

Now please keep in mind this is all just my opinion.

It seems to me you are bringing up a number of issues that may or may not be related.

It would be good if there were a central church full of God-loving, Bible-believing, Christ-honoring, loving one another people who took the ministry into their neighborhoods.

Sounds a lot like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They have huge playgrounds, game rooms full of the latest in electronic gadgetry and movies galore. They serve continental breakfasts to each child and give them milk and cookie breaks. At least one hour of the two they are there is simply play. There is, however, worship service and bible study provided. Sounds good huh? The bulk of the membership is coming because of this. On the other hand one of the churches offers breakfast or early lunch to the members. In this one you can worship in the sanctuary or at a dinner table while eating and watching church on the big screen.

So everybody wants to go to the big, fancy church with all the perks and not the dingy, small, dirty church across town? Well, who wouldn't? It takes a lot of cash to run all this stuff so they must have a large congregation writing some decent sized checks. You say the bulk of the membership is coming because of these perks. Maybe so, but what would they be doing with their kids otherwise? Probably taking them to daycare someplace. Better to keep them in a Christian environment, isn't it?

The Bible teaches that God bestows gifts on the members of the church to do the work of ministry. We all are aware of this. They can be from serving, to giving, to music ministry, to preaching and teaching. But in these two churches alone, after interviewing many members, their are hundreds of men and women called to lead, teach, preach, and sing but are not doing it because there are only so many slots for this. So instead, because of the "Perks" and complete unaccountability that comes in huge crowds, they vegetate Sunday after Sunday never fulfilling the ministry God bestowed upon them.

Some one please tell me I am foolish or there is something wrong with this picture! While dozens of churches in the city are on their knees begging fo someone to play the piano or teach a class the ones gifted to do so are sitting in a pew or at a dinner table for church on the other side of town. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a wake-up call?

I couldn't agree more, Mike, a wake-up call is in order. But what type of wake-up call? In my experience in another fellowship, a general announcement in the big fancy church would largely go unheeded. But, as you said, there is "complete unaccountability that comes in huge crowds." Speaking to one individual on a one-to-one basis,with the gifts you are looking for and asking them to please consider coming to the small church is much more likely to go further toward you realizing your goal. If you keep it personal, you are much more likely to get a positive response. Who knows? Maybe the big fancy church would appreciate it as it would help to shrink their wait-list.

Nothing wrong with starting small, Mike.

Just my

[SteveJM]

I agree with your viewpoint, mikhen7. We have a large megachurch not too far from us that has branched out several times into surrounding communities. The problem I see with their expansion is that besides the lack of deep Biblical teaching in the mother church, the communities that are being moved into already have Bible believing churches that are in membership decline. The sister churches that are being started don't have their own identity, own leadership, but rather are all tied directly to the mother church and its pastor. Would it be better when a church expands to capacity, to encourage it's members to move their memberships to other established churches, where there is a need and opportunity for them to use their gifts? That may not give the leadership and the members of the megachurches bragging rights about how big their ministry is, but it would be a more efficient model. The large churches may have to pass on some of the perks, but it would be a greater perk to have your brothers and sisters use their gifts for God, also the money saved from building bigger and more buildings could be better used, for example, in missions work.

[micah719]

Went and dug up the thread link.

Be church.

[mikhen7]

Now please keep in mind this is all just my opinion.

It seems to me you are bringing up a number of issues that may or may not be related.



Sounds a lot like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses.



So everybody wants to go to the big, fancy church with all the perks and not the dingy, small, dirty church across town? Well, who wouldn't? It takes a lot of cash to run all this stuff so they must have a large congregation writing some decent sized checks. You say the bulk of the membership is coming because of these perks. Maybe so, but what would they be doing with their kids otherwise? Probably taking them to daycare someplace. Better to keep them in a Christian environment, isn't it?





I couldn't agree more, Mike, a wake-up call is in order. But what type of wake-up call? In my experience in another fellowship, a general announcement in the big fancy church would largely go unheeded. But, as you said, there is "complete unaccountability that comes in huge crowds." Speaking to one individual on a one-to-one basis,with the gifts you are looking for and asking them to please consider coming to the small church is much more likely to go further toward you realizing your goal. If you keep it personal, you are much more likely to get a positive response. Who knows? Maybe the big fancy church would appreciate it as it would help to shrink their wait-list.

Nothing wrong with starting small, Mike.

Just my

On your first point JW's and Mormons - yes it does minus the Bible teaching of course. In the past 10 years i have not had a believer come to my door to witness. It is getting very rare.

On point two I can see your point. I happen to be very good friends with the pastors there and they are glad the kids come because the parents hear the gospel. That is the Pro. On the hand, the Con is they are involved in cliques. The gospel seems to mostly bounce off because they are attending because of status. You would have to know the church. I hope most are not like that. I also believe a good solid Children's ministry is necessary and if it helps bring in families I am all for it. If the trend continues that SteveJM mentions in his post, the smaller churches would eventually die as many are now.

Third point, small is fine, I agree. But to be small for 40 years means there is an issue. If the issue is doctrinally related then so be it.

My point is not to attack the Mega church or even be jealous, I came from one. Certainly that is not the issue. The "Perks" I speak of, at least in these two churches, override the call to ministry. I have very good friends who wait year after year for a chance to teach but never get it. Asking them to go elsewhere is out of their comfort zone. The same with singers and musicians. Our church has a fine Praise team and some very good teachers. We are blessed in that respect. Can say much for the Pastor though! LOL!

I guess my dilemma is if there are so many places to minister and use your gifts why allow 'Perks" to stifle you?

God Bless!!



Sorry if my post was unclear in perspective. Sometimes my fingers override my senses! LOL

[SonSeeker]

My point is not to attack the Mega church or even be jealous, I came from one. Certainly that is not the issue. The "Perks" I speak of, at least in these two churches, override the call to ministry. I have very good friends who wait year after year for a chance to teach but never get it. Asking them to go elsewhere is out of their comfort zone. The same with singers and musicians. Our church has a fine Praise team and some very good teachers. We are blessed in that respect. Can say much for the Pastor though! LOL!

So your friends never get a chance to teach and going elsewhere will take them out of their comfort zone? I guess they don't want to teach very bad.

[mikhen7]

I agree with your viewpoint, mikhen7. We have a large megachurch not too far from us that has branched out several times into surrounding communities. The problem I see with their expansion is that besides the lack of deep Biblical teaching in the mother church, the communities that are being moved into already have Bible believing churches that are in membership decline. The sister churches that are being started don't have their own identity, own leadership, but rather are all tied directly to the mother church and its pastor. Would it be better when a church expands to capacity, to encourage it's members to move their memberships to other established churches, where there is a need and opportunity for them to use their gifts? That may not give the leadership and the members of the megachurches bragging rights about how big their ministry is, but it would be a more efficient model. The large churches may have to pass on some of the perks, but it would be a greater perk to have your brothers and sisters use their gifts for God, also the money saved from building bigger and more buildings could be better used, for example, in missions work.

You are so correct! That is what I am talking about. And the good thing is it is Scriptural:

³ Join the ranks of those who bear suffering, like a loyal soldier of Christ Jesus. ⁴ No soldier gets entangled in civil pursuits: his aim is to satisfy his commander. 2 Timothy 2:3-4 (MOFF)

⁵ But as for you, be serious about everything, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:5 (HCSB)

⁵ The reason I left you in Crete was to set right what was left undone and, as I directed you, to appoint elders in every town: Titus 1:5 (HCSB)

¹⁶ When this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you also read the letter from Laodicea. ¹⁷ And tell Archippus, “Pay attention to the ministry you have received in the Lord, so that you can accomplish it.” Colossians 4:16-17 (HCSB)

¹¹ And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, ¹² to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, ¹³ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, ¹⁴ so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. ¹⁵ Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ¹⁶ from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 (ESV)

²⁰ how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, ²¹ testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. ²² And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, ²³ except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. ²⁴ But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. ²⁵ And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. ²⁶ Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, ²⁷ for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. ²⁸ Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. ²⁹ I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; ³⁰ and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. ³¹ Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. Acts 20:20-31 (ESV)

There are many others that point to ministry, expansion and evangelism. I still believe it is God who builds the church. So in reality our requests must always go to Him first. I just see things from a larger picture. From a Birds Eye view I see a city with two large churches on one end and a few dozen spotted throughout the city at strategic points. Many who attended these churches in the past, now drive the 30 or so minutes to the Mega church. So it is not that these areas do not have Christians they just seem for the most part to go out of their area to worship. I know it is an issue and some may be called to do it. I know of one church that is in a 20,000 population 1/2 mile radius that is huge in building, land, ministry resources, electronics video and many other resources yet only has 40 members or so. It is fully paid for and sits on a 1 1/2 city block plot on a high traffic commercial road that runs through the residential area it is located in. NOT ONE Member lives in that area. They are all 15 to 30 minutes away. Interesting huh?

Thanks for listening to these crazy thoughts. god is on Mission and I cannot rest unless I catch the bus!!! His Bus!

Absorbed in Christ!

[mikhen7]

So your friends never get a chance to teach and going elsewhere will take them out of their comfort zone? I guess they don't want to teach very bad.

I think people are scared. I think they are used to the familiar. I praise God for the ones who cannot escape the conviction to move on into another ministry. That is why I admire Missionaries so much. You must remember that we are all taught and discipled by the Lord to go out into the world. Not to sit in the upper room!

God Bless!

[SteveJM]

mikhen7
Thanks for listening to these crazy thoughts. God is on Mission and I cannot rest unless I catch the bus!!! His Bus!

Absorbed in Christ!

There's nothing crazy about your thoughts, brother. We need to question how things are done. The Church is following the example of big business, and just as many small businesses have folded because of the big box stores, many small churches are suffering because of the draw of the mega-churches. A lot of the draw is because, as was discussed in one of your other threads, people are often choosing churches for what they can get out of them rather than what they can give to them. A mega-church can be a very good thing with the use of small groups, solid Bible teaching, an organized outreach to the community and support of the mission field. How many fit that description? I'm sure that some do and some don't. It often seems that the mega-church is built around the charisma of the lead Pastor. Sometimes it's the fact that the Pastor is a Spirit filled and excellent teacher/preacher. The best case scenario would be to have a strong leadership team, so that everything doesn't hinge on one man for as we know man can and often fails. I still see the benefit of having several small churches in a community versus a mega-church. The spread out churches, it would seem, would be able to better evangelize and impact their immediate surrounding neighbors.

I always look forward to reading what God is speaking to your heart.

[SonSeeker]

I think people are scared. I think they are used to the familiar. I praise God for the ones who cannot escape the conviction to move on into another ministry. That is why I admire Missionaries so much. You must remember that we are all taught and disciplined by the Lord to go out into the world. Not to sit in the upper room!

God Bless!

I agree with you, Mike. People don't like to get out of their comfort zone. But it's not like you're asking them to change jobs and move three states away! You're only asking them to teach a class once a week at a different church. Come on, is that going to kill them? Tell them it's a great opportunity to use their God-given gifts, and if it turns out that is too much for them, they can just go back to the upper room and sit on their hands waiting for a spot at the big church. It's also a great opportunity for them to try out their skills to learn if it's a good fit for them.

[FaithInChrist]

I am wary of mega churches. Simply because we live in a world where money is god. In mega churches you get many people that are going to church as a way to network, to meet others and sell themselves professionally. Mega churches are full of people that go to church for that one reason alone. They dress up their families and take their "perfect" little family to church. Who doesn't trust a church-going man, with a beautiful wife and kids? Okay, that is beyond the scope of this thread but I wanted to share this discpicable practice that I have seen in some mega-churches. Quite honestly many people do not want an intimate relationship with God. They go to churches where they will hear an "inspirational" speech and not much Biblical substance. There might be a few people in the mega church that seek a closer relationship with God, but they will never obtain this relationship in the mega-church.

I truly believe that once you have a congregation that is so large that the pastor has celebrity status, then the church is probably too big to minister to everybody. A church should have a serving position available to each and every person that wants to serve. If you have more people than you have service areas then it's time to open up new avenues of service within the church. If the mega churches would utilize all their people the outreach to the community would be huge, but they do not do that. They buy rock climbing walls and basketball courts instead of feeding the hungry. It's a huge problem in the world but the itching ears keep the seats full and the souls empty.

I do not know if there is a solution to this problem, since this has been prophesized as happening in the last days. All we can do is work on the services that God has called us to do, with the resources we have been given.