how do you guys treat gay people?

[ronen]

seen a movie about pat haggard. seemed to me like the evangelical community is taking this matter a bit too seriously. i mean who cares they are not a threat to anyone. i think you should embrace them and put a pressure against the dont ask dont tell policy in the army. maybe some people will see that being religious doesnt mean you are backward.

[ronen]

i have a creeping suspicion im about to be slapped

[Robert]

Are you talking about Pat Haggard, or Ted Haggard?

[ronen]

Are you talking about Pat Haggard, or Ted Haggard?

hmmm probably ted than

[Revelation]

seen a movie about pat haggard. seemed to me like the evangelical community is taking this matter a bit too seriously. i mean who cares they are not a threat to anyone. i think you should embrace them and put a pressure against the dont ask dont tell policy in the army. maybe some people will see that being religious doesnt mean you are backward.

How do you mean, "how do you treat gay people"?

I treat gay people like I do anyone else, I work beside them, I talk to them as I would anyone else and I pray for them, as I would anyone else that is lost.

If you are asking us to accept them into the church as though they were not trapped in sin and accept that sin, any sin - adultery, murder, child abuse, lying, thieving, then the answer is no.

To treat anyone lost in any sin as though their sin is OK with God is to not love them. God says it is not love, but hate to allow people to sin (go without correction) without telling them that separation from God is okey dokey.

I do not believe you have ever been in the service if you think that openly gay is a good thing. It creates a great distrust among service members and destroys the bond military members feel because they have to depend on their shipmate that they no longer trust, especially in a person way.

It weakens the military at a very basic level. This I can tell you from experience. There is nothing worse than hearing gay sex going on in the berthing compartments that you sleep in, and I imagine that out in the field it would be no better.

It is an invasion of personal space that can be disturbing. IMHO.

Being openly gay in the military, I can promise you, will be flaunted in people who are heterosexual's faces, just to see our reaction (just like you see on this and other Christian boards being taunted by God haters and atheists). Thus creating an atmosphere of distrust and anger and starts the path of breakdown in unity that is needed in the military,

This is how satan is trying to destroy our country and military to make America vulnerable and to ultimately destroy America through a weakened morality and military.

Which is Obama and his socialist/communist friends want, the destruction of America.

[Robert]

Okay; Ted Haggard was a pastor.

Let me share with you a couple of things:

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap." (1 Timothy 3:1-7, NIV, emphasis mine)

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22, NASB)

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NIV, emphasis mine)

Scripture makes it CLEAR that homosexuality is a sin, and that a pastor is to be involved in NONE of these things. By doing so, he has exposed people in his congregation to that sin, and has sent a message to the world that slaps the Lord in the face. If someone purports to be "a man of God" and does something that the word of God CLEARLY condemns, what does that say about that person? It gives a very bad black eye to the Body of Christ.

This is why we take it so seriously. We do NOT believe in that sort of thing; the Word of God says it is wrong, and yet someone who is supposed to be teaching and guiding Christians is caught doing this. The Bible has a severe warning for those who lead another into sin:

" But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!" (Matthew 18:6-7. NIV)

Aside from that, Revelation made some good points as well. We do not look down upon people, but we cannot embrace their sin in the church, no matter what that sin is.

[Revelation]

hmmm probably ted than

You do realize that Ted Haggard has repented of his sin, don't you?

He knew it was wrong.

[Robert]

Revelation, I take it you served in the Navy?

[ronen]

revelation dude, i did serve in the army and i dont think you are right. why would gay people have sex in the compartments? and robert i did read that chapter in leviticus. when i was about 15 i heard about this on the ricki lake show and i couldnt believe that the bible would say something like that. but i looked it up and it did. on the other hand it just doesnt seem right to me.
over the years i came to know a couple of gay guys. one was very negative and full of anger because he lives in a religious place and they sort of cast him out. the other served in the IDF and is a great guy and a great friend. i think there are worse things a man can be. anyway since the decision on who will be born gay is above our earthly capabilities i think that judging gays should also be left to god.
i think the pastor's real sin was not to his community which he deceived. because that community has taught him that he has to deceive them. his real sin was to deceive his wife and live with her all these years. and even now after that whole thing. because i am completely sure that being gay is not a choice and there is no way that he stopped being gay.
i think that alienating good people is a big wrong.
our orthodox hold similiar negative opiinons about gays and that alone should make you reconsider.
they walk around in huge coats in the middle of summer for crying out loud
most jews accept gay people thats all i know.

[Robert]

i think that alienating good people is a big wrong.

Good people?


" But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6, KJV)


"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18, NIV)

No one on this planet is "good."

As far as "alienating them", I'm sorry, but our marching orders are clear in this matter, and they come from the Lord:

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them." (2 Timothy 3: 1-5, NIV)

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, KJV)

There was someone I knew who was gay, and every time I got the chance, I witnessed to him. I never 'alienated" him, nor made disparaging remarks, and I got to know him fairly well. I always treated him as a PERSON, and not a thing. And I try very much to do that for ANYONE who is lost, no matter what their sin is. But do NOT ask me to condone what SCRIPTURE has already said is a sin. If someone is doing something scripture says is WRONG and will not repent of it, then how can they be a member of the body of Christ?

I'm sorry, but the Word of God is clear on this. And i do not care what a priest, rabbi, pastor, or anyone else says. When scripture says one thing and a human being says another, I go with scripture.

[ronen]

well robert i have one major problem with scripture
i dont know who wrote it
and dont get me wrong i do believe in it
i read most of it (though not very carefully) and i believed in it
it was obvious for me since the first moment that this was not some fantasy
but that doesnt mean that every word is genuine
who know what path the word of god traveled until we got it now
i am not convinced that it is holy word by word
i mean just the fact that except for the first 5 books the rest of the books have been picked by men to be part of the bible, while other books have been left out
just this fact alone is a major problem, dont you think?
the last book of the 5 (i dont remember the english name for it) and the book of joshua say the same things about 3 times. how is that even logical that god would have expressed himself in such a way?

according to judaism the origin of the books is explained by tradition. which if you question than you get no definitive answers. either believe that moses wrote the first five book or dont. there is no other answer anyway. so i say: we should not take literally every word. if there is something that is inconsistent with the spirit of the book than its suspicious. just my opinion.

[ronen]

i have another example: it is known that names have been changed in accordance to how the author felt about the personalities. eg: baal zvuv or queen izevel
you probably can continue the list better than me

so there is definitely a serious credibility problem. the same as in the masada story account for instance.
im just saying that i dont know.. since adam and eve have eaten from the fruits of the tree than we can tell right from wrong and we dont need to follow a couple of sentences from the book of leviticus if they contradict our own feeling on the matter.
especially when it is possible that some one of my tribe has added these lines like three thousand years ago just because it seemed right to him at the time.
should we really take our moral from the people that lived back than. they have sinned almost every other chapter

[Chris]

revelation dude, i did serve in the army and i dont think you are right. why would gay people have sex in the compartments? and robert i did read that chapter in leviticus. when i was about 15 i heard about this on the ricki lake show and i couldnt believe that the bible would say something like that. but i looked it up and it did. on the other hand it just doesnt seem right to me.
over the years i came to know a couple of gay guys. one was very negative and full of anger because he lives in a religious place and they sort of cast him out. the other served in the IDF and is a great guy and a great friend. i think there are worse things a man can be. anyway since the decision on who will be born gay is above our earthly capabilities i think that judging gays should also be left to god.
i think the pastor's real sin was not to his community which he deceived. because that community has taught him that he has to deceive them. his real sin was to deceive his wife and live with her all these years. and even now after that whole thing. because i am completely sure that being gay is not a choice and there is no way that he stopped being gay.
i think that alienating good people is a big wrong.
our orthodox hold similiar negative opiinons about gays and that alone should make you reconsider.
they walk around in huge coats in the middle of summer for crying out loud
most jews accept gay people thats all i know.

Boy, you've got it all wrong. God doesn't make people gay, people choose to be sexual perverts and be queer. Your friend choose to be a pervert like all the others out there that choose homosexuality. The same goes for those who masturbate, etc. The truth is we are all perverts in a sexual sense. But the finger pointing at God making people Gay is just stupid. It's man's flagrant and disobedient turning from God and his holy ways and being turned over to our sexual lusts. It's wrong. Period.

[Chris]

.....

[micah719]

Another bone of contention from ronen; mate, I'm starting to worry about you....

Who is responsible for Scripture? Here:

2 Timothy 3:15-16
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
17 So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Remember how in the time of the Judges, so often it was said of the people of Israel that every man did what was right in his own eyes....that is folly, and very dangerous. Lean not to your own understanding....

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.

You've read the Old Testament parts about this vile sin, here it is in the New Testament as well, one of many such passages:

Ephesians 5:1-17
1 THEREFORE BE imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father].
2 And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance.
3 But immorality (sexual vice) and all impurity [of lustful, rich, wasteful living] or greediness must not even be named among you, as is fitting and proper among saints (God's consecrated people).
4 Let there be no filthiness (obscenity, indecency) nor foolish and sinful (silly and corrupt) talk, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting or becoming; but instead voice your thankfulness [to God].
5 For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]--for he [in effect] is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience.
7 So do not associate or be sharers with them.
8 For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [lead the lives of those native-born to the Light].
9 For the fruit (the effect, the product) of the Light or the Spirit [consists] in every form of kindly goodness, uprightness of heart, and trueness of life.
10 And try to learn [in your experience] what is pleasing to the Lord [let your lives be constant proofs of what is most acceptable to Him].
11 Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead [let your lives be so in contrast as to] expose and reprove and convict them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that [such people] practice in secret.
13 But when anything is exposed and reproved by the light, it is made visible and clear; and where everything is visible and clear there is light.
14 Therefore He says, Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine (make day dawn) upon you and give you light.
15 Look carefully then how you walk! Live purposefully and worthily and accurately, not as the unwise and witless, but as wise (sensible, intelligent people),
16 Making the very most of the time [buying up each opportunity], because the days are evil.
17 Therefore do not be vague and thoughtless and foolish, but understanding and firmly grasping what the will of the Lord is.

Here is why people do these things...notice especially the bit about being without excuse....

Romans 1:16-32
16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
17 For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith.
18 For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.
19 For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).
26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
29 Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
30 Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
31[They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
32 Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.

And just in case someone says The Lord Jesus Christ would never say something to offend, read here what He says Himself, again:

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And He [further] said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life.
7 He who is victorious shall inherit all these things, and I will be God to him and he shall be My son.
8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.

If you truly are seeking the Lord you will find Him, and you will listen to His voice and know what He says. Normal married men and women never have the impulse to march the streets nearly naked to proclaim pride in their choice of what they do in private...but the deviates are poor deluded sinners and pawns of the devil, being used to attack the institution of marriage and the foundations of God's LAW. Choose whom you will serve...Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Look at how sad and empty those people are, and how sick they are because their lifestyle is so unhealthy...as the Lord promised, they reap retribution in their souls and bodies. Even the marxist subversives know homosexuality is bad, that is why they promote it in places they want to destroy....it is a weapon of the devil.

And by the way, "gay" used to mean "happy, upbeat", not "perverted, deviate, queer, sodomite". Jesus Christ died horribly to give them the opportunity to be set free of their sin, not to wallow in it.....

[Revelation]

revelation dude, i did serve in the army and i dont think you are right. why would gay people have sex in the compartments? and robert i did read that chapter in leviticus. when i was about 15 i heard about this on the ricki lake show and i couldnt believe that the bible would say something like that. but i looked it up and it did. on the other hand it just doesnt seem right to me.
over the years i came to know a couple of gay guys. one was very negative and full of anger because he lives in a religious place and they sort of cast him out. the other served in the IDF and is a great guy and a great friend. i think there are worse things a man can be. anyway since the decision on who will be born gay is above our earthly capabilities i think that judging gays should also be left to god.
i think the pastor's real sin was not to his community which he deceived. because that community has taught him that he has to deceive them. his real sin was to deceive his wife and live with her all these years. and even now after that whole thing. because i am completely sure that being gay is not a choice and there is no way that he stopped being gay.
i think that alienating good people is a big wrong.
our orthodox hold similiar negative opiinons about gays and that alone should make you reconsider.
they walk around in huge coats in the middle of summer for crying out loud
most jews accept gay people thats all i know.

No, I am not wrong. I can testify that it did happen on the ships I was on. And as a Dudette, it was constant in the female berthing, a lot. It was supposed to be a thrill thing I guess.....

Why you would think that there was no sex going on? There was also heterosexual sex going on all the time (pregnancies after a 6 month cruise were rampant). The difference (not better or approved) was that people tried their best to keep their sex private- because someone would tell their spouse when they got home (from the ship - or at least the spouse would hear the rumors.). Not a show.

So I know exactly what I am talking about. You see a lot of things in 13 years of service in the Navy, or whatever branch you serve.

[Revelation]

Boy, you've got it all wrong. God doesn't make people gay, people choose to be sexual perverts and be queer. Your friend choose to be a pervert like all the others out there that choose homosexuality. The same goes for those who masturbate, etc. The truth is we are all perverts in a sexual sense. But the finger pointing at God making people Gay is just stupid. It's man's flagrant and disobedient turning from God and his holy ways and being turned over to our sexual lusts. It's wrong. Period.

Exactly right Chris. The result most sad from this sin, is the tearing apart of families and the eventual accepting of a sin so horrible to God He calls it an abomination.

[Revelation]

i have another example: it is known that names have been changed in accordance to how the author felt about the personalities. eg: baal zvuv or queen izevel
you probably can continue the list better than me

so there is definitely a serious credibility problem. the same as in the masada story account for instance.
im just saying that i dont know.. since adam and eve have eaten from the fruits of the tree than we can tell right from wrong and we dont need to follow a couple of sentences from the book of leviticus if they contradict our own feeling on the matter.
especially when it is possible that some one of my tribe has added these lines like three thousand years ago just because it seemed right to him at the time.
should we really take our moral from the people that lived back than. they have sinned almost every other chapter

No it is not known to have changed anything in the Bible. The scrolls testify to the accuracy of the Bible, and that has been actually proven.

If the Bible - God's Word is not your final authority and you do not trust it, how do you square with Christianity and the revealing of God and the life death and resurrection of Jesus?

Do you just pick and choose what you think is true? And if you do, how do you come to your conclusions as to what you believe from the Bible?

If you do not trust that God has preserved His word through the last 3000 years, how do you believe that God is God? That He is Sovereign over the Universe, omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent?

How do you defend your Faith in Jesus, or am I mistaken and you are not a Christian? Honestly, maybe I just did not see that you are not a Believer.

Christianity is not a blind Faith.

[Revelation]

Good people?


" But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6, KJV)


"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18, NIV)

No one on this planet is "good."

As far as "alienating them", I'm sorry, but our marching orders are clear in this matter, and they come from the Lord:

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them." (2 Timothy 3: 1-5, NIV)

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, KJV)

There was someone I knew who was gay, and every time I got the chance, I witnessed to him. I never 'alienated" him, nor made disparaging remarks, and I got to know him fairly well. I always treated him as a PERSON, and not a thing. And I try very much to do that for ANYONE who is lost, no matter what their sin is. But do NOT ask me to condone what SCRIPTURE has already said is a sin. If someone is doing something scripture says is WRONG and will not repent of it, then how can they be a member of the body of Christ?

I'm sorry, but the Word of God is clear on this. And i do not care what a priest, rabbi, pastor, or anyone else says. When scripture says one thing and a human being says another, I go with scripture.

You said that very nicely Robert, definitely better than I could have.

I always treated him as a PERSON, and not a thing. And I try very much to do that for ANYONE who is lost, no matter what their sin is. But do NOT ask me to condone what SCRIPTURE has already said is a sin.

[Revelation]

Revelation, I take it you served in the Navy?

Robert, I served 13 wonderful years in the Navy. I wish I had stayed until retirement, but hindsight is always 20/20,

I did not get back to this thread last night, which is why I have some many replies now.......