Salvation dependant on believing that Jesus is God

[Potter's Clay]

Hi Everyone,

I posted a thread here a while back regarding the deity of Jesus. I have been coresponding with an individual who claims that Jesus is his savior, but refuses to accept His divine nature. I have sent him all of the obvious references such as John 1:1-5,14, John 10:30, Col 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:7, Rev 19:13 etc along with some of the web sites Mattfivefour recommended. His stance is that Jesus was born, lived and died and is not eternal.

Here is the last few dialogs between us.

My post

I most certainly DO believe that Jesus is eternal. That is the basis for our entire discussion and I believe there is overwhelming evidence of this in scripture.
In John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus after feeling the nail marks in His hands " My Lord and my God."
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. I know I quoted this verse before but it seems that in the greek there is one article preceding two descriptive terms (God, savior connected by and) whenever this is done, both terms describe the same person. In order for two people to be meant, two articles are needed. This is also true for 2 Peter 1:11.
Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end who is and who was and who is to come. The Almighty.
Isaiah 44:6 says "Thus says the Lord, the king of Isreal, And his redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides Me there is no other God. Sound familiar? see Revelation 22:13 which says I am the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end the first and the last. The "I" is clearly identified as the "one who comes quickly" in verse 12. see revelation 3:11 which is in one of Jesus' letters to the churches.
In Isaiah 45:22 and following it says for I am God and there is no other.. every knee shall bow, every tounge shall take an oath. And in Philipians 2:10,11 says that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tounge confess...
I also believe that there is evidence in the OT for pre bethlehem works of Jesus. In genisis 48:16 talks about the "angel who has redeemed me from all evil bless the lads. " We know that the only one who can redeem is God.
Another passage is in Judges 13 where a barren couple has just learned from an "angel of the lord" about the future birth of Sampson. The father requests the name of the angel so that they might name the baby after him. The angel responds why do you ask my name, seeing it is secret. The word secret is from the same hebrew root word used in Isaiah 9:6 for "Wonderful". we know the wonderful in this verse refers to Christ and it is highly probable that the "secret" in Judges also refers to Christ.

His post

Again sorry for the delay. First let me say again that Jesus the Christ is my Lord and Savior because He declared/revealed God. He took mankind from darkness(ignorance) to light(truth/knowlegde/wisdom/understanding). So for me, it is follow Jesus, worship God, Jesus being the example. As to Lord, this depends greatly on where/how it is used. Generally it is a title as to one having absolute power, like God, but also like a Master to a slave, or a ruler like Pharaoh or Pontius Pilate. Therefore the appearance of the word Lord does not mean a reference to God although in some cases it does. There no denying what Thomas says in John 20:28, however given the choice, who's word are you going to accept, Thomas or Jesus? I choose Jesus. As to Titus 2:13, as I previously stated, in the KJV that verse says "the great God and OUR Saviour Jesus Christ. This, to me, is one of the many, many subtle differences between the KJV and the newer version of the Bible which change/add/subtract words and puntuate differently in an attempt to make it easier to read/understand. I study from the KJV because it is the first and oldest word for word translation in english. If I could read in Hebrew I would study from that in its original form because each change can render a new meaning or understanding as in this very example. If you haven't heard already, many of the newer "improved/updated" versions are attempting to become gender neutral. In 2 Peter 1:11 in the KJV it says "our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". Here, "Lord" and God are not interchangeable. If one looks at the beginning of Pauls Epistle, they all begin very similarly, "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God". Also Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son", says God is speaking THROUGH his Son. part 1

My post


So according to your interpretation of Titus 2:13, both God and Jesus are coming back at the end of the tribulation. Is there any scripture that supports God coming to earth? (other than in the person of Jesus Christ)
Matthew 24:30 says And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Not both. More about "The son of man" later.

His post


Another example: I could write "My God Kevin!" Written just like this, these three words could have two totally different interpretations, an exclamation, or claiming you to be MY God. Before coming to a conclusion, one would have to examine context and look elsewhere for clarification. By themselves those three words dont mean you Kevin are God. As to the Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 to me it is quite clear this is referencing God. However, you must poit me to "Jesus' letters to the churches" as "churches" were something established by Paul after Jesus ascended to Heaven. Prior to that, there were synagogs as far as I know. Angel is another word of ambiguous meaning. Some references define it as being an agent of God or an agent of Jesus, meaning anyone who acts on the behalf of either. Other reference define them as heavenly beings. I ascribe to the former. As I have said before, I read what is there and work very hard not to allow my thoughts, feelings or belief to creep in. For me if it is not clear or I don't understand, I pray and meditate, seeking revelation. Nothing I say contradicts anything written in the Bible and I provide clear and unambiguous reference that demonstrate my perception. However what I see is that a lot of what I see contradicts what is taught at church and how people interpret the Bible, not what is written. For instance, Numbers 23:19 says; "God is NOT a MAN" no room for interpretation. In John 8:40 Jesus says he is a MAN who hath told the truth. Again no room for interpretation. Act 17:31 Jesus is referred to as "that MAN" whom God ordained, and Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man. Again, no room for interpretation, further you also are a son of man. In this discussion, you have yet to address any of the references I provided or answered any of the question I put forward. I can ask them again if need be, but I want you to understand that my purpose is to point out that what is taught in church does not always come from the Bible and that there is so much more to Jesus' life than dying on the cross, as he died for preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God. That is in addition to what Jesus says about the church and the doctrine of man in Matthew chapter 23. To me, ignoring the entirety of His message, what he preached and taught, minimizes His sacrifice, and that true knowlegde and understanding of His message is life changing.


I did not see your 3:14pm post when I wrote the last reply. God is omnipresent so he is everywhere always. The Son can come and go. You know you are a son of man also right?

My post

read your references and agree that God is not a man. However Jesus took on that role when He came to earth. Back to John 1 again, the WORD ( second member of the trinity) BECAME flesh and dwelt among us. The context of the verse would indicate that the Word was something else before He became flesh. Remember, nothing is impossible with God. While here on earth He was fully human. He was a man. I see no problem with that. There could be no other sacrifice for the sins of man except that of the man who knew no sin. Jesus.
I read a very good explanation of what is meant by the term "son of man". It is from a comentary on the gospel of John by F. B. Meyer.
He says:

He speaks of Himself repeatedly as the Son of Man. Not A Son of Man. Not the Son of A Man. But, as if He were the child, offspring, and representative of the entire human family--the Son of Man (John 3:14). Whilst, therefore, as the Son of God, He was able to know God perfectly, as the Son of Man He was able perfectly to express, unfold, and reveal Him; so that all might understand the deepest thought and being of the ever-blessed One.

So I am the son of A man not THE son of man.

Another reference to the preeminence of Jesus can be found in 2 Timothy 1:9, 9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

My concern for you Aldon is that the Holy Spirit has not revealed this truth to you regarding the true identity of Jesus. John 16:13 says
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. I will continue to pray for you.

His post


I thank you for your concern and your prayers. As the "Spirit" of truth is eternal, it is here already. We just have to accept it. Not only does Numbers 23:19 say God is not a man, Jesus identifies himself as "a MAN who Hath told the truth" (John 8:40) and Paul identifies Jesus as "that MAN whon He(God) ordained" Acts 17:31. Further, Jesus says "that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent", (John 17:3). John 1:18 says "No man hath seen God at any time". I understand versions differ in the rest of the verse, however, I'm pretty sure men saw Jesus. This phrase is repeated in 1 John 4:12, "No man hath seen God at any time". Why is "WORD" anything other than what God "speaks"? Jesus carried God's "Word" to humanity, in the begining God "SPOKE" all into exsistance, and before God spoke nothing exsisted. To me the "WORD" becomes flesh in Genesis 1:26 "And God SAID, Let us make man in our image" 2 Corinthians 4:18 says "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal". Jesus was seen, making him temporal, God is not, making him eternal. The spirit of Jesus is eternal as it lives in all of us who live by his word. The whole Trinity thing was decreed by Emporer Constantine in 325AD at the Counsel of Nicea, at the same time the Bible as we mostly know it today was assembled. Prior to that, it depended on which Christian community you asked as some believed Jesus was a man and some believed Jesus was God. The Emperor's decree made the "Trinity" the official church doctrine although trinity is not in the Bible. F. B. Meyer's "explanation" is just that an explanation by a man. I'm pointing to scipture. Perhaps my "situation" would be helped if you could point me to the specific scripture wihich says salvation in dependant on believing Jesus is God.

I Know I am probably fighting a losing battle but any help would be appreciated.

[mattfivefour]

Unless the Holy Spirit opens his eyes, he will remain blind to the truth. And unless he is willing to accept what the Spirit would reveal to him then he will remain wilfully blind.

All I can suggest is that you storm heaven with your prayers for this friend. Prayer touchs God to change things, and He can according to His wisdom change anything. Anything except a heart that does not want to be changed.

[micah719]

If The Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth hadn't told the Sanhedrin Who He is, they wouldn't have had a charge to condemn Him on....remember He said, I AM...and then the high priest ripped his clothes (forbidden!) and charged Him with blasphemy.

As Matt says, this is a case for prayer.

[myinnuendo999]

Hebrews 1:6 God the Father is speaking: He says "Let all God's angels worship him". How Can God tell his angels to worship His Son and then turn around and read in Luke 4:8 "Jesus answered, "It is written: "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only".

Jehovah alone is to be worshiped and yet the Father in Hebrews tells all the angels to worship His Son?? there is a serious problem if a person cannot see that Jesus is God.

How do you reconcile these passages if Jesus is not God? God doesn't speak with a forked tongue..

The 10 commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Humans refused worship. Remember Paul in Acts 14? people thought He was a god and Paul said no don't worship us...

Angels also refuse worship. You remember John who fell at the feet of an angel who was bringing him revelation. The angel refused and said don't fall down before me if you are going to worship God. Worship God alone.

Jesus accepted worship. In this Jewish "monotheistic" context where nobody else but the Supreme Creator who is God---Jesus accepted worship..Mt.20:20 he accepted worship from the mother of James and John. From the Garasene demoniac Mark 5:6. From the blind man Mark 9:38. From doubting Thomas John 20:28. From the woman at the tomb-Mat. 28:9 and a Canaanite woman Mt. 15:25. His Disciples worshiped Him-Mt. 14:33. A healed leper in Mat. 8:2 came back and worshiped him. And a rich young ruler in Mt. 9:18.

Now if you can ONLY worship God and they didn't even worship in the presence of an angel and Jesus accepted worship on 9 occasions, he is accepting the acclamation of God. YES accepting worship as only God is supposed to receive is overwhelming proof that Jesus claimed to be God

Notice that Jesus never rebuked anyone who worshiped Him. Angels do not worship ANYONE BUT GOD>and yet God the Father says LET ALL God's Angels worship HIM-Jesus. and Also Angels refuse to be Worshiped.

God the Father would be breaking His own law if He commanded worship to Jesus and He is just an angel or another god, just a man. God clearly says "Worship the LORD your GOD and served HIM ONLY" God said that.

The bible clearly says that Jesus is God in the Flesh--John 1:1,14;

2 John 7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the Antichrist.

1 John 4:2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God... <<When John wrote this he was NOT saying that Jesus lived but that Jesus is God in the Flesh. John was writing against the heresy of Gnosticism..

Jesus stated implicitly that it is essential to salvation that a person believe in who he claimed to be. If we fail to believe who Jesus really claimed to be then Jesus stated we would die in our sins 8:24.. I'm not sure how much clearer you can get.

Believing Jesus is God in the flesh is essential to being saved--Jesus said so-John 8:24. The very reason why John wrote the Gospel of John was that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name"-John 20:31.. How can anyone read the whole Gospel of John and fail to see who Jesus CLAIMED to be??

with all that being said, mattfivefour is correct. you can talk until you are black and blue in the face. Only The Holy Spirit can open his eyes. Pray for Him and lift Him up daily to the Lord. Ask The Lord to lead you and guide you... Leave an open door and love mercy and grace

[jesuschangesall]

If The Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth hadn't told the Sanhedrin Who He is, they wouldn't have had a charge to condemn Him on....remember He said, I AM...and then the high priest ripped his clothes (forbidden!) and charged Him with blasphemy.

As Matt says, this is a case for prayer.

yeah,and with the ripping of the high priest clothes,a NEW PRIESTHOOD was manifested,that of OUR HIGH PRIEST JESUS...if JESUS CHRIST is not GOD ( and HE IS!!!!) the Bible would make NO SENSE,because HIS DIVINITY is prophesied in the OT and manifested in the NT.....but,JESUS will REVEAL HIMSELF to anyone that asks for THE TRUTH,He cannot be known by our human senses or brain...HE MUST BE REVEALED and that is the wonderful work of THE HOLY SPIRIT.....the NEW BIRTH is a MIRACLE of GOD!

[Potter's Clay]

Thank you all for your wise counsel. The examples of Jesus accepting worship posted by myinnuendo999 are great.
I appreciate the help and will pass this on to my friend. Pray that the Holy Spirit opens his eyes and heart to this truth.