Need some help

[Potter's Clay]

Hello Everyone,
I recently met someone who does not recognize the deity of Jesus. I am posting our written corespondence for evaluation. Any assistance would be appreciated.
His first post is as follows.


Hey Kevin, it was my pleasure and I really enjoyed the conversation. It's good to share well developed perceptions, helps me to see a more full picture of what I'm trying to observe. The book of Proverbs is one of my favorite books along with Ecclesiastes. I believe one must live by Proverbs 3:5 because the outcome of any action I choose to engage in, any action really, has been predetermined, and that will be the outcome regardless of my desire. I choose the outcome that I want, then seek the actions to engage in to create the outcome. To me that lines up with Hebrew 11:1, the definition of faith. As to John 1:1 I perceive a little differently than most. For me, since most of the New testement is a resitation of the old testement, this verse is restating Genesis 1:1 because in the begining nothing exsist but God. In Genesis 1:3 God SAID "Let there be light", so you have only God and what he speaks, his WORD. So I percive John 1: 1-5 is talking about God. In John 1:14 when the word becomes flesh, happens in Genesis 1:26 when God SAID 'Let us make man in our own image. Jesus is God's Glory full of Grace and Truth. You have Genesis 1:1 'In the Begining God created the Heavens and the earth.', and Acts 17:23 - 31. Acts 17:31 says " by that MAN whom he hath ordained" and "raised him from the dead". As to John 10:30, absolutely and this is true for you also. I would again point to Acts 17:25 -29. I would love to hear you opinion. Peace!

My response



Hey , One of the things that I have discovered while studying scripture is that it is very specific and means exactly what it says, except in some cases when symbolism is used. Omitting or adding even the smallest word can change the interpretation and thus the meaning and intent of the verse. John 1: 1 cleary states the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God. 1 John 5:7 says "For there are three who bear witness in Heaven; the Father, the WORD, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
Colossians 1: 15-17 talks about the preeminence of Christ in creation. Verse 16-17 says " For by Him (Christ) all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."
Scripture also attributes Christ as being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, all the qualities of God the Father.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them saying " ALL(little word) authority has been given to me in Heaven and on earth."
Matthew 18: 20 " For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
Colossians 2:3 in whom (Christ) are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
Acts 17:31 does say "by the Man" but that refers to Jesus' human form. The Word became flesh. Jesus had to come in the form of man to be the propitiation of sin, and to make attonement for our sin.
God Bless!


He responds


I agree with what John 1:1 says, for in the begining there was nothing until God spoke. Also that is how the Genesis begins, "In the begining. I also agree with John 5:7 in that the three are The Father (God), the WORD (What God has spoken) and the Holy Spirit (that which gives everything life and the ability to act). Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light, ( light being knowledge). It continues in 1:13 talking about God, Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness (ignorance) and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (truth and grace) Verses 14 and 15 are talking about Jesus. Verse 16 is talking about God. Many references for this exsist one being Acts 17:24, another Proverbs 16:4 also states the LORD (God) hath made all things for himself. I absolutely agree with your frist two sentences, this is why when I study I read what is there with out attempting to interpret precisely because of what you stated. Please tell me if you perceive me to be ommiting or adding anything and what that may be. Mathew 28:18 Jesus says "authority has been given to me" which indicates it didn't originate with him (Jesus) but was given to him by the Father. This lines up with being ordained by God as is stated in Acts 17:31. In John 5:30 Jesus says "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me". I also believe Jesus is in our (you and I) midst because it is the truths that he revealed that we are pursuing and attempting to understand. I see this in the passage you quoted Colossians 2:3 because Jesus possesses the wisdom and knowledge of God. John 1:17 says "for the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Acts 17:31 says God has appointed a day in which he (God) will judge the world in righteousness by that man(Jesus) whom he(God) hath ordainded (measure the world against the Righteousness of Jesus). Through Jesus, God has give assurance unto all men and proved it by raising Jesus from the dead.

Omnipresent means being everywhere at once. Since Jesus could leave from one place and go to another, then he was not everywhere at once.
Omnicient means all knowing. Jesus says in John 8:28 "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me." One who is all knowing need not be taught.
Omnipotent means all powerful. As you have said, in Matthew 28:18 Jesus says, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". To me indicates that he (Jesus) was not the source of "all power" as it was GIVEN to Him. Who but God could have Given Him anything as God is the Begining and the Ending, the source of all things.

my post

Good Morning, I think what you are ommiting or ignoring from john 1:1 is "The WORD WAS God." To interpret it the way you do would mean that the "spoken" word was God which does not make sense.
Remember, every word is important and it means exactly what it says right down to every jot and tittle.
Yes, in human form Jesus was only in one place at a time, but He was also spirit. Could He have been in the midst of two or three gathered in His name in spirit while here in human form? Certainly. He is God and nothing is imposible with God. Whether He was or not I don't know. I can't come up with an example from scripture. However, His statement is very relavant to us today. What do you think Jesus meant when He said that? Remember all scripture is given by God , is valid and has meaning.
There are many things that we do not understand completely and I think the Trinity is one of those things. At least I don't. That is what makes studying God's Word so great, it draws us closer to Him and He reveals more and more of Himself.


His post
I also wanted to say that Jesus the Christ is my Savior who has saved me from the lies and deceit of the world created by man. I believe he was God's annointed, which is what Messiah and Christ mean. However it seems to me most worship the man with out knowing His message. Jesus always points to the Father, never to himself, as the source of all things. As to John 1:1, it starts, In the begining, the same as Genesis 1:1. Nothing exsist until God speaks. Nothing happens until God gives the 'word' Some people see a Trinity in that; the spoken word, the written word, and the living word. Although trinity the word in not something that appears in the Bible, the first place I see a trinity is in Genesis 1:1; God, Heaven and earth. I Corinthians 12:12 One body, many members, bound by the same spirit, is another. I see a Trinity in Kevin, Kevin the entirety, the individual members that come together to make the entirety, and Kevin the spirit that holds you all together and causes you to function.

What do you guys think?

[mattfivefour]

Short answer? I think this guy has found his own ideas and is married to them. And by not accepting Jesus is who He says He is, He is denying Him and therefore is not of Him.

Long answer? The Bible has ample verses stating that Messiach would be God. Take a look, for example, at Isaiah where the Hebrew calls Him "Mighty God" (El Gibbor) and "Eternal Father" (Avi Ad). In fact there are 58 verses in the Old and New Testaments in which all three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—are shown as being present. Also Jesus claimed and/or applied (and the Bible in other verses adds to that claim) the names and titles of Jehovah for Himself. In fact, it is clear that Jesus in the New Testament is exactly the same as Jehovah of the Old Testament. Finally Jesus accepted worship. No Jew would ever have done this, yet He did. And the Jews knew it and therefore sought to stone Him for blasphemy. Look at the moment recorded in John 8:58 when Jesus looked at the Pharisees and said plainly "Before Abraham was, I am." The Greek is emphatic. It is πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί which says literally: "before Abraham came into being I, I am." He was clearly claiming to be the "I am". In Greek "eimi" is sufficient to say "I am". But Jesus said "ego eimi" which means "I (or me) I am". He wanted no misunderstanding, and He got none. The Jews fully understood what He meant and the very next verse records: "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him." (John 8:59a)

To return to my initial sentence, this friend of yours is not born again because his understanding is not enlightened. He speaks of God's creation in Genesis 1 but is unable to tie it to John 1:3 "All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made." Or Colossians 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him." Genesis 1:26 says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...." Therefore we have a simple congruency. God made man. Christ made man. Either the bible has contradicted itself, or God and Christ are one. A further proof of Jesus being God is in the fact that the latter part of the Genesis statement says, "in our image, after our likeness." Man was originally created in the very image of God. But he fell. Now, as the Bible says in 2 Corinthians 3:18, man when he is redeemed is being made into the image of Christ (We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.) If Christ were not God, then what purpose would man being changed into the image of Christ have? What part would that play in restoring things to the original Creation, whereby man is in the image of God? It only makes sense if Christ is God.

BTW, there are a number of good scriptural studies on the Trinity and on whether Jesus is God. May I suggest a couple of very simple online ones? Is Jesus God - Did Jesus Ever Claim to be God? and Jesus - The Life of Jesus Christ - Is Jesus God.

Hope this helps a little.

[myinnuendo999]

Amen mattfivefour

[Potter's Clay]

Thanks Mattfivefour
I am passing on the info.

I think my friend said he goes to the church of jesus christ of latter day saints but did not "fully subscribe" to their teaching on this matter. whatever that means. maybe this sheds some light on his thought process.

[Potter's Clay]

Here is the latest corespondence beginning with my post.


Here are some other references for you to consider.
John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad. Then the jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.
John 10:30 says I and my Father are one.
When Jesus healed the paralytic in Matthew 9 He said be of good cheer your sins are forgiven you. Only God has the ability to forgive Sin.
How can Jesus be a great moral teacher if on the most crucial point of His teaching, His identity, be a deliberate liar?
Who is the "He" in john 1:2? and the Him in verse 3?
He was in the begining WITH God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
The Word.


His response


Excellent references. However, in John 8:28 Jesus says "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." In verse 40 Jesus says "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God". In verse 50 Jesus says, "And I seek not mine own glory". verse 58 is one I have puzzled over because of the tense issue. "Before Abraham was (past tense), I am (present tense) One could say after a close reading, Jesus never says he saw Abraham.
You and the Father are one as you are part of God, The Entirety.
I don't believe Jesus lied about His identity as he never ever claims to be God on earth.
In the King James it says "The same was in the begining with God". In verse 3 'him' is God, references Isaiah41:20, Isaiah 45:18, Acts 17:24. People have been having this same discussion for 2000 years, and I'm glad to be having it with you. I do feel we mostly agree. The counsil of Nicia(sp) was to decide the Deity of Jesus. Are you aware of any scripture where Jesus teaches to worship Him(Jesus)?



My post:


Thanks, I enlisted the help of some knowledgable Brothers and Sisters and consulted some web sites on the subject reccomended to me.
I think you may be on to something re the past-present tense statement. Look at it this way. BEFORE Abraham was in the past, I AM present. No Jesus did not say He saw him but was present before him.
Let me go back for a moment to Matthew 18:20. Jesus said where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst of them. Would you agree if this were not true or possible then it is a lie?
And if a lie, then all of the Gospel is worthless and we are all doomed.
Yes, Jesus was worshipped. That was the whole reason the pharisees saught to kill him, because He did not deny the fact that He was the son of God.
In John 10:36 Jesus said " I am the Son of God."
Matthew 16:15 peter recognizes Jesus as the Son of the living God and Jesus did not rebuke him but commendend him by saying that flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but My Father who is in Heaven.
Jesus was worshipped and will be forever more. Revelation 5:13 says And every creature which is in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them I heard them saying: Blessing and glory and honor and power be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb for ever and ever.

I don't think I am getting anywhere with him. All that can be done at this point is
Thanks in advance for your insights.

[jesuschangesall]

we know that the"god" of this world (satan) HAS BLINDED the minds of the unbelievers so that the glorious gospel will not shine on them...a good way to proceed is TO PRAY that THE LORD will lift the blindness so at the least the person has a chanche to see and make a decision.....simplicity and the power of The Holy Ghost...

[mattfivefour]

I don't think I am getting anywhere with him. All that can be done at this point is

Well, that is not surprising considering that he is a member of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". That is the official name of the Mormon church. It is not Christian, in any form whatsoever. They freely use the name of Jesus but without knowing Him. Their doctrine is built on what began as a colossal fraud perpetrated 150 years ago by a con man named Joseph Smith Jr.

Prayer is the only thing that will free him from that demonic cult. Most of its members are very nice, and very sincere people. But they are very deceived ... and very lost.