Troubling message from my brother in defense of the RCC

[Saved by Jesus]

I got this back from my brother and I am struggling how to answer.

He is only a holiday church-goer and generally goes to a RCC because it's what he has known from his past and so it's convenient and also due to the fact that my other sisters and my dad invite him. He's far from a devout Catholic though.

He is also married, has 3 children and is 40 years old. However he fervently defends the mary apparations are indeed Mary and that the RCC worships the same God as we do and that any of us that beleive in John 3:16 are basicaly just one big happy family depsite any differences in worship style, religion.

Him and I have been having allot of discussion back and forth where I've presented to him an overwhelming amount of evidence scriptually as to the false teachings of the RCC church. So how do I respond to this?? He won't even look at the evidence I have presented scriptually saying it is all just propaganda basically for my side and I have NEVER pushed being a Baptist on him whatsoever??? In fact while I attend a Baptist church I refuse to give myself that label other than being a saved by Jesus alone as a Christian.

I don't want to say the wrong thing that will have him put up a wall.

Troubling message from my brother in defense of the RCC

Sis,

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think that pretty much sums all these discussions up. Say what you want....but everyone in our family believeth in him. That being said....how can anyone who beleives that go to hell?

If you add any stipulations to this verse or add anything else to it you are contradicting the word of God. True or not true?

This is about as clear as it gets no ifs ands or butts. Sure, there are a lot of other versus and or beliefs set out by Christians and by the RCC as you claim.....but in the end do any of them really matter more then this one? Unless someone chooses not to believe in Jesus I can't see God denying them entrance into heaven. If you don't truly believe this then John 3:16 is a lie. If that is the case then what verse in the Bible can we believe....right? BTW...the point is there is absolutely no rebuttal to this so don't even try.

As stated before, the non-believers and the ones who have not heard the word of God are the ones you should be talking to. If you don't think they are out there look at some of the posts on YouTube message boards under the videos you forward. There are people out there that flat out deny God and are proud of it. Those are the ones in real jeopardy.

I look at it like this, Religion whether RCC, Baptist or any other is a business. That being said, they all compete for families to fund their churches. Just look around and you'll see what I mean. Money is everywhere. Look at Joel Olsteen, The Pope, and plenty of others out there teaching the word. Heck...just go visit the BIG mega church between Dover and Sugarcreek to see what I mean. They have over 3,500 people attend there each Sunday and you walk in there and it looks like Quicken Loans Arena. They have a Coffee Shop, Arcade and rock bands that play the music. Oh..it looks like a lot of fun and I bet my kids would love it. Trouble is, if you weren't told it was a church you would never know. To me it looks like it's all about having a good time and "attracting" the clientele. Oh...and did I mention they won't let you join unless they see a copy of your W-2?? Not kidding about this! Since when did God care about how much money you made to worship him? If you don't believe me check it out yourself. They teach right out of the King James BIBLE about the same stuff you do like Revelation, End times, and everyday life. I know this because a good friend of mine goes there. It's not a cult or anything it's just a big Christian Church that does it to "attract" new families. Are they going to hell? No..because I bet everyone of them believes in John 3:16.

Look it's all a big competition for membership. The more doubt you can sell or fun you can promise the more you can convince others to join your side. It's not rocket science it's just SALES 101. Learn about the competition, find a way to create doubt or pain to get them to buy into it. It's what we do everyday in our real sales jobs. Your just selling for your side and Dad is selling for his. It's all the same product though in the end...GOD. Why can't you see that?

There are some extremists in all religions but all I know is what I believe.... and according to John 3:16 that is enough to get me to heaven. It's doesn't matter what church I go to as long as I believe what I believe. Religion just uses people like you and Dad for their own gain. Your their TOP salepeople. The thing you have to remember though is God is real. Religion is man made.

Bottom line.......is if you peel it all away all you really need is John 3:16.

Brian

[MikeD]

Bottom line Sis, and I hope you don't mind me calling you such? Anyway, bottom line? He's right! Yet, there are things we need to look deeper into - FOR OURSELVES! These are things only the Holy Spirit can reveal to your brother.

I would say, pray for him without ceasing. I understand. I have a sister that once went thru a divorce then ended up living with another man. She couldn't understand why I would not come to their house. All we did was just pray and let God handle the situation. Today, she's happily married, loves going to church, and LOVES what the Holy Spirit showed her concerning a HOLY LIFE! That sort of thing can ONLY come from God.

We'll join you in prayer. I know it hurts you more than you can say to see what's going on in your family. Pray and leave it to God. He's more than able to cover them, and you too!!

OK, enough "prechen", sorry to go on so much. Praying with you for a great testimony to come!!

[Jesus Freak]

Hey sis, believe in John 3:16 comes from a greek word, (I forgot it sry) but it means to put ones trust in to. They can believe all they want. Almost everyone believes a man named Jesus walked this Earth, but alot of them dont believe who He truly is.

[mattfivefour]

Sia, you might ask them to consider the following:

According to the Bible, both Cain and Abel clearly demonstrated that they each believed in God and that they each knew that it was God's due that He be worshiped and that He receive of the fruit of their labor. Yet, Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God, and Cain's sacrifice was not. Why?

God had, in the Garden, first instituted blood sacrifice as a covering for sin. It was a foreshadow of the requirement for salvation (without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins ... no forgiveness. — Hebrews 9:22) that would be revealed more and more until the coming of Messiah and His ultimate and final sacrifice.

Abel offered as a blood sacrifice and therefore was accepted. Cain offered a sacrifice that made sense to him, but was not what God required; therefore it was not accepted. God will only accept that which HE requires, not what man thinks is acceptable. Cain made the mistake of substituting what seemed good to him for that which God says is required. Many Churches—indeed, many Christians—do that today. They substitute the practice of liturgies or sacraments or obedience to laws and attempts at personal holiness for the one thing—the ONLY thing—God will accept: faith in the once-for-all, all-sufficient, all-encompassing, all-complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The RCC with its denial of the personal confidence of Heaven, with its insistence that baptism, the eucharist, confession and absolution are mandatory for one's salvation, with its continual sacrifice of christ in the Mass, with its foundational belief that a person must pay for one's own sins in sufferings on this earth (including self-inflicted sufferings, mortifyings of the flesh) and then in a place called Purgatory until one's sins are all remitted (which thus denies the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice) has substituted its own way to God for God's way to God. Like Abel they believe in God (and, of course, Jesus who is God) and they believe that He is to be worshipped and they believe man owes Him service. But, unlike Abel, they have chosen to give Him what seems to them the right thing to give God, rather than what God clearly has told us in His Word that He requires— faith in Christ and Christ alone. Sola fide, sola gratia, solo Christo. By faith alone, by grace alone, through Christ alone. Thus they are not like Abel in obedience to God's way, but rather like Cain in the creation of their own way. Therefore as He did with Cain, God rejects their offering.

James says, "You believe in one God? So do the devils, and they tremble." (James 2:19) Believing is not enough. It is what you choose to believe in for your salvation that counts. Believe in Christ's sacrifice alone as being sufficient for your salvation, sanctification, and eventual glorification (which is as good as done) and your sacrifice is accepted ... you are saved. Believe the wrong thing, believe the product of men's wisdom and thinking, believe that works and sacraments are required in addition to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, believe that Christ must be sacrificed continually and that you must take part of it in order to be saved, and you have chosen the way of Cain. Therefore your sacrifice is rejected: you will be undone like Cain.

If you understand the above, sis, and find it useful you are welcome to use all—or any part—of it in a letter of reply to your brother. Believing in Christ is not the point. It is believeing in Christ ALONE. And abandoning as salvatory ALL of the sacraments.

[Faith]

Now I'm one who believes anyone can be saved from all religions,but their salvation has to be based on Christ alone for salvation.

If you add anything to Christ, I don't believe your saved...

From witnessing, I learn a long time ago, never mention 'religion.'

Just share the 'Gospel of Christ',and pray...

[mattfivefour]

Hey sis, believe in John 3:16 comes from a greek word, (I forgot it sry) but it means to put ones trust in to. They can believe all they want. Almost everyone believes a man named Jesus walked this Earth, but alot of them dont believe who He truly is.

The word is pisteuōn and, as you say, it means a lot more than belief or mental assent. It means to trust entirely in, to cast your entire confidence upon Christ ... and what He has done. The expositor, Alfred Barnes a hundred or so years ago wrote in his commentary on Mark 16:16:

"He that believeth. That is, believeth the gospel. Credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true. This is the whole of faith. Man is a sinner, he should act on the belief of this truth, and repent. There is a God. Man should believe it, and fear and love him, and seek his favour. The Lord Jesus died to save him. To have faith in him, is to believe that this is true, and to act accordingly; i.e., to trust him, to rely on him, to love him, to feel that we have no merit, and to cast our all upon him."

In his commentary on John 3:18 (yes, I meant 18) he wrote:

"He that has confidence in him; that relies on him; that trusts to his merits and promises for salvation. To believe on him is to feel and act according to truth--that is, to go as lost sinners, and act toward him as a Saviour from sins; relying on him, and looking to him ONLY for salvation."

To quote D.L. Culliver from Bible Truth Today:

"One of the most often quoted scriptures in the Bible is John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.' On the face of it, the verse seems pretty straight forward. If you believe in Jesus you're saved. It sounds simple enough to me. Is it? Let's look at another passage that I mentioned earlier this week. James 2:19b '... the demons also believe, and shudder.' Are the demons saved? They certainly believe. They more than human beings, have been around long enough to see God's power demonstrated in the Lord Jesus Christ. Even though they are created beings and therefore finite, have seen all of the evidence. They were certainly there at the crucifixion. They saw Jesus' body laid in the tomb. They watched as the most incredible miracle in history occurred when God raised Jesus from the dead. Of course they believe!

"Against this evidence alone we can see that to believe MUST mean more than an intellectual affirmation of facts about the Son of God. First, I must affirm that faith in Christ alone is all that is necessary for salvation. The so-called "good" works of men, (Isaiah 64:6), are not only insufficient to save you, but if you ADD works to the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel is no longer the Gospel and it has no power to save. (Galatians 1)"

Yes, pisteuōn is a lot more than mental assent, a lot more than intellectual acceptance. It means acting in regard to one's salvation and eternal hope by trusting COMPLETELY in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ ... and Him ALONE. The RCC commands its followers NOT to do that, but rather to rely upon the actions that it deems necessary—baptism, confession, absolution, eucharist, charitable deeds, purgatory—in addition to what Jesus did.

[Saved by Jesus]

Oh my gosh...I cannot thank everyone enough for responding. I was so troubled by this.

My brother-in-law said to me this morning.....

You are not the lone ranger! You have God on your side, and what does Romans 8:31 say? ( please read whole passage in context (the whole chapter or book if you have to!)) So you will never be the loan ranger! But you see satan will take our short-comings and use them against us. You have always felt like the outcast of your family, satan is going to keep that garbage in your head to try to stop you from witnessing to the family. Don't let that happen!

In another comment from my Pastor this morning I received this

John 3:16 was never intended to be the only statement in the Bible worth knowing or trusting. While I’m eternally thankful for that verse, it is the hundreds of other verses of the Bible that we must also know and trust in order to fully understand it. Isolated from its context, John 3:16 could mean any “god,” any “son,” it doesn’t mention anything about Christ’s work on the cross or the empty tomb, and it omits any details about belief (keep in mind even the devil believes).

Just about every “Christian” cult in the world would also believe John 3:16. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc all would believe it, but they define the terms of the verse in their own way. They don’t let God’s word define the parameters of who God is, who the Son is, what it means (and doesn’t mean) to believe, etc. It is a significant overstatement to say that anyone (regardless of background) who accepts John 3:16 as truth is ok. We are called upon to be students of the Bible, not people who cling to one verse while ignoring 31,000+ other verses. II Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect (spiritually complete/mature).” Our spiritual “opinions” are really not opinions. The Bible alone can define what we believe. We don’t correct wrong belief, Scripture does. We don’t come up with our own morals, Scripture does. We don’t determine ourselves (or let tradition show us) how to connect with God, Scripture does.

I think your brother’s greatest concern is not for doctrinal unity or conversion, but for family peace. You are still called upon to be a witness of the truth. He suppresses that truth by pointing to imperfect churches, and imperfect videos for his reasons of unbelief. He needs to be encouraged to read the Bible. The book of Romans or gospel of John would be a great starting place. If he’s going to reject something, it would be better for family peace for him to reject the Bible than to reject you. Offer to do a Bible study with him. Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

[Saved by Jesus]

So I presented to my brother what many of you said, including those from my pastor and this was his answer:

Opinions....nothing more, nothing less. I could get 5 different people in a room and ask them to describe John 3:16. Guess what, I would receive 5 totally different answers. This is what fuels religion as a whole and is why so many people are confused. But then again, if people aren't confused religion wouldn't be the money making machine it is? I'll stick with my view, as I believe it's the way God intended it to be.

This is exactly what most protestants do by picking at anything they feel denounces the RCC. It fills the need and you use it as well. I'm not saying the RCC is right or wrong because only God knows that. But please don't make me have to start pulling out all the Catholic books Dad gave me from former "born again Christians" that turned Catholic and pick out things from the Bible that are pro RCC. I don't have the time nor do I want to go down that road. Not just because I don't have the time but also because they are just someones interpretation of the facts.

How discouraging....

[myinnuendo999]

"Saved by Jesus", I've found in my sharing the Gospel with sharks all around,(not literally)LOL, it's always best to focus in on pointing them to Jesus and what HE said. You could ask if he believes everything Jesus says is final authority and if what the Roman Catholic Church teaches contradicts with what Jesus says, will he believe in Jesus or was Jesus a liar? Jesus said "If you believe in ME as the SCRIPTURE has said,,,,,"-John 7:38 and He also said if you HOLD to MY Teaching you are really my disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."-John 8:31. Jesus DID--"Sanctify they by the Truth THY WORD IS TRUTH"-John 17:17. stress the importance(in a loving way after praying to the LORD) of Jesus laying down his life and validating all that HE said is the truth. What has the Roman Catholic Church done? They did not die and validate what they say is the truth. Anyways, I would establish the importance of Jesus as final authority and point to HIM cause Jesus backed up His claims.
Also, It is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse and arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with Your theological position. Paul faithfully declared “all the counsel of God [holding] back nothing” (Acts 20:20,27. And as far as it goes for believing in John 3:16,, Satan believes it too and he's certainly not saved. The Bible clearly says that it is not enough to BELIEVE you must ACT and RECEIVE-John 1:12!! Jesus said, “I am the door. "IF" anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” Jesus himself said “if you enter ANY OTHER WAY you are a thief and a robber”. So it's not just by GRACE it is by grace through FAITH-(the ACT "on our part to believe).
Again, if Jesus lived his life in total submission to the word of God as Final Authority, I can rest assured to stake my life in total submission to the word of God as final Authority in my life as well. Jesus backed up his claims when he ROSE from the DEAD and validated EVERYTHING the Bible says IS the truth. What has the Pope done or any Church for that matter. Anyways we love you in Christ and know what it's like to love people whom we would DIE for to know Jesus. But, it is God who does the saving

[repent1st]

So I presented to my brother what many of you said, including those from my pastor and this was his answer:



How discouraging....

The answer your brother gave is the same answer my MIL would give and its truly a sad thing. I know what you are going through. Just as an honest truth God doesn't lead people to the catholic religion, God takes people from there. Only those who reject God and his truth will consider converting to roman catholicsm. Take courage my sister, don't let his words discourage you. You have a savior and a friend in Jesus and much support from people on here who have gone through what you are going through. Those who leave a part of the body of Christ to go to catholicsm aren't leaving to go to the true church of Christ. They are infact joining a cult masquerading as a christian organization.

God bless

[Chris]

We've got a whole section on the RCC on the main site. Hopefully that will help some in reaching out to your brother. The RCC adds works to grace, and is therefore not true Christianity which believes in "grace thru faith" only. Here's the link on the main site:

Roman Catholicism

[WazOz]

Very difficult situation you are in.
Isn't it a bit suspicious that it's "Mary" and "Jesus" in all these apparitions, signs wonders and miracles to RC, now in a more controversial idea, who would absolutely hate it if all Catholics discovered the truth, that they are and have been deceived for so long, and turn to God, and be save. Ol Nic, JMO of course, Satan gives these signs to Catholics to keep them trapped, better chance for him to have those souls, a lot easier to deceive than those of us that do know the truth, hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but the elect won't be deceived.
Just as time comes close we will see more signs from the stars, like UFOs and the like, just to keep these people from looking for God and turning to God.
JMO and not the sort of thing to tell you bro.
Your Bro in the Lord "Me"

[Saved by Jesus]

Satan gives these signs to Catholics to keep them trapped, better chance for him to have those souls

WazOz you sure have that right. I got some materials from the Mike Gerndon site Proclaiming The Gospel Ministries with Evangelist Mike Gendron - Home in the mail today...one was his Pocket Evangelism Kit..for witnessing to catholics. That seems like a really good tool to use in conjunction with the Holy Word of the Bible to hopefully somehow, someway get through to them but first they have to let the HS in.

My dad and two sisters are the others in my family who are just as lost....but I refuse to give up.

The mary apparitions are totally NOT of God but to think at one time I was convinced....boy I am sure glad I saw the light and that's not the light of anymore apparitions.

Thanks Chris as well for the link....some really good articles there....my you have done your homework on that!!

I just ask that everyone would pray that my family comes to know the truth. Sometimes I think if my Dad did the rest would just follow. At least that is what my husband seems to think that my dad is the key to getting them to budge and at least be open to seeking the truth. The reason why you ask??

He is so staunch Catholic that if he became saved he would never quit talking about it.. and NO one on my side of the family that IS Catholic can ever see him leaving the bondage of the RCC. But my dad is dying of bone cancer as it has now entered his bones after miraculously having his cancer leave for 10 months until now (kepp in mind he had no treatment) That was back in Feb 09 where they only gave him but 2 weeks or so to live!!! I mean the doctor told us back in Feb to phone hospice.

It's still hard for me to even beleive any of them will come to know the truth but that is part of having faith....and also accepting the fact that I can't make that choice for them.

[Saved by Jesus]

I sent this to my brother today...


I wanted to also thank you for bringing up John 3:16 and I am not saying this sarcastically because it got me to thinking even more. In actuality it instead helped me disprove ones thinking that all it takes is anyone believing in John 3:16 and they are good to go...to heaven that is. Here's the evidence.....and I KNOW you are smart enough to recognize it.

So if this is the case I guess we can say:

Jehovah Witnesses are saved as well. (well we might be out of luck here because only 144,000 of them are chosen so I think we might have missed the bus on this one)
Christian Scientists are saved as well. (belief that evolution as the beginning of creation and science rules)
Mormons are saved (they believe that Satan was Jesus's brother and that we are all Gods...oh and you can have multiple wives)

There is even a new religion called Christlam (combination of Christianity and Islam) They claim belief in either gets you to heaven so I guess as long as they also give weight to John 3:16 being correct in addition to belief in Allah...they are good too.

And I guess the members of Joel Olsteen's church are saved (those who follow the prosperity gospel like that emergent church in Dover you were talking about. They beleive you can gain "your best life NOW" (not in heaven ) but yeah they beleive in John 3:16. We KNOW they are preaching a twisted GOSPEL but what's a little false doctrine mixed in as long as you beleive in John 3:16....Hmmmm.....the list could go on and on. I guess just go by your own understanding of God and not take everything literally as God's infallible word intended it to be in the Bible. I guess the scripture reference "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"

God was probably just KIDDING here....don't you think....I mean maybe he was just having a bad day when he spoke those words?? He is a loving God...afterall. We can do our own thing and even if it slaps the face of scripture....oh well. Here's what I beleive Brian.....I sure wouldn't bet my salvation - ETERNITY on that type of misguided thinking.

So back to the RCC:
Lets see what they have added (again NOWHERE in the bible..but hey so what??)

Did you ever look at when ALL the sacraments and some of the heretic beleifs that came into play with them?
Here's a timeline:

431 AD (again after the death and resurrection of Christ) - Proclamation that infant baptism regenerates the soul
500 AD The Mass instituted as the re-sacrifice of Jesus on the altar.
1000 AD Attendance at Mass made mandatory under the penalty of mortal sin. (which sends one to hell)
1079 AD Celibacy of priesthood decreed by Pope Gregory VII
1090-1190 AD The granting of indulgences (scapulars, prayer cards, prayers to the dead) established to reduce time in Purgatory
1215 AD Transubstantiation (the Eucharist ) (where the wine and bread becomes the actually body and blood of Christ ) and proclaimed by the Pope Innocent III and also the Confessions of sins to the priest, instituted by Pope Innocent III as well.
1438 AD Purgatory elevated from doctrine of the RCC to a dogma (meaning never can be changed) by the Council of Florence (again NO mention of Purgatory anywhere in the bible)
1545 AD Tradition claimed equal in authority with the Bible by the Council of Trent (again another Dogma)
1854 AD Immaculate Conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius IX
I870 AD Infalibility of the Pope, proclaimed by the Vatican Council
1922 AD Virgin Mary proclaimed as co-redeemer with Jesus by Pope Benedict XV
1950 AD Assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven proclaimed by Pope Paul XII

Well I guess if the RCC says it in their manmade laws, as the TRUTH, then it is..who are we to question??? After all they claim to have the KEYS from Peter! Even though God clearly states HE is the Rock but the Pope says he is. The Pope has to be right...he after all is infallible!! Heck they decreed it above! I guess God just TOLD them to add these laws and rules to scripture because sadly NOWHERE in the bible does it reference any of this as PROOF. Oh and you are an anathema condemed (cursed, going to hell) if you don't beleive that the above is true...oh wait...all EXCEPT the Muslims CC 841 ....they are worshipping the same God in the RC's book... I guess me, Mike, Trish, Don, Kelli and you are going to hell. Hope you bring plenty of ice cubes...Do you see where I am going with this????? The RCC IS a false religion and its holding Dad, Jane and Joan BONDAGE. They don't beleive that Jesus dying on the cross was enough to save them, instead they beleive you have to continue to sacrifice him and atone for your sins weekly...and the only one that can help them is the RCC...put your trust in them, their manmade rules and traditions. If you care about them at all and I KNOW in my heart you DO then Brian please don't hinder our efforts in trying to reach them but help them get SAVED. Dad's time is short...he even admitted to me that Jesus dying on the cross and accepting his sacrifice as not enough to get you to heaven!!!! You know it and I know it. It God's way or the highway. Which is it for YOU? Will you help me?? This is a false religion DEFIANTLY going against the word of GOD.

So what it comes down to is this. According to the RCC if you chose the Holy Bible as your only authority you cannot be saved. Who's right? There is no in-between. They are preaching a false gospel which will not gain them entrance into heaven. They are trusting in their rituals, a false diety called Mary (masking around as Satan) apparations, and sacraments to get them to heaven but instead only keeps them in bondage. God revealed EVERTHING in the bible.....he did not leave ANYTHING out. The only thing the Protestants were guilty of was rejecting the Pope as the subsitute for Jesus Christ and his words and holding to the authority of the Bible. And guess what? Ther RCC killed 50 million so called Protestants because of it. Does that sound Christian??? YouTube - Catholic Inquisition and The Torture Tools

Learn the history of what the RCC and please watch those videos Brian. Don't let yourself be deceived as well by giving that false church/ religion any credibilty at all. That's how we can help Dad.....by standing up for the truth and rebuking false doctrine. This is the best thing we we do for him is pray that the HS works in him to save his life by coming to grips with the truth that will set him FREE. Are you IN? Radio Free Church : Speakers

[Saved by Jesus]

Comments received back from my brother to the above:
Any help is appreciated... :(

Very Interesting Below from very famous "Non-Catholics" and who Protestants look up too

Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
Martin Luther had the belief of Mary's Immaculate Conception, Luther's words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).
Martin Luther on Mary's Perpetual Virginity
Here are some of the founders of refom commenting on Mary:
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

"Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that."
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther's Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)

"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees." (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)
Commentaries on Luther
". . . in the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin, and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her." (Ref: Wm. J. Cole, "Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?" in Marian Studies 1970, p. 116:)

"In Luther's Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary, which Wright feels compelled to call 'surprising'".
(David F. Wright, Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspecive, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, p. 178, Cited from Faith & Reason, Spring 1994, p. 6.)
Martin Luther defends the Eucharist
In 1529 Martin Luther engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.
Other Reformers on Mary's Perpetual Virginity
John Calvin
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
Huldreich Zwingli
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained 'inviolata' before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - 'Hail Mary' . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
'Fidei expositio,' the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on 'Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.'
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}
Heinrich Bullinger
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary's perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: 'In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.' She is 'the most unique and the noblest member' of the Christian community . . .
'The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.'
{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}
John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)
The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.

Also, still think I am wrong about everyone has an opinion? Here is biblical proof about Purgotory!! Read it and you will see that no matter who you talk to whether they are Protestant or Catholic they can always prove their side.

Hence...in the end it get back to a true belief in John 3:16

"Most Christians who profess belief in Heaven and hell only, have to admit they would probably end up in hell if it was not for Purgatory, At least that's what a proper understanding of Purgatory teaches:

Purgatory is a State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness & Purification After Death By Fire.

There is ample Biblical evidence of this as follows:

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

Now what can you say??? Sounds like Purgotory to me and straight from the Bible too!

If there was only one passage I could see maybe doubting it...... but 15????

When was the first Bible created?

A: The Bible was completed prior to A.D. 100. And a couple of books - Revelations being one - were not included in the official canon of scripture until 390 A.D. The early church relied on Jesus' teaching about God and heaven and His instructions on how his Church should be set up being handed down from the apostles to their hand-picked bishops and down throughout this apostolic lineage.
This huge body of knowledge, too huge for the Bible, was kept and still is kept by the original apostolic Church. The knowledge itself is called Tradition. Used in this way tradition means Truths Taught by Jesus.
Over 50 testimonies collected about the life of Christ were considered for inclusion in the Bible and only 4 were chosen. As John says at the end of his version, there were so many signs and wonders that to write them all down would require volumes and volumes.
So the Bible is just a sampling - but a very good one, carefully chosen - of the words of Jesus and of his most faithful, like Paul and James. And the rest of the knowledge of His life and the things He taught the apostles about heaven and God that DIDN'T make it into the Bible is still in the hands of His apostolic lineage which teaches it to priests in schools who in turn teach it to their congregations, as much as they can.
The limits of the human mouth and vocabulary - not to mention the limits of time - preclude even the combination of the Bible and Tradition telling the whole story of Jesus, God and Heaven.

A: The Canon of Sacred Scripture, the Bible, was finalized in the Council of Carthage in 397 a.d. with 73 books. Martin Luther took out 7 books from God's Inspired word during the Prostestant reformation, but Catholics still read the same and original Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit. God bless.

See what I mean. Plus, this is only a small sampling.

[mattfivefour]

Sis, Luther was wrong about many things. The issue is not what Luther wrote, but what God wrote. Even John Wesley was wrong about a few things ... for no man is perfect. Your brother is merely quoting the "evidences " for Roman Catholic faith that the RCC itself has devised. They are all based on taking either the words of mere man, or taking the Word of God and placing upon it their own interpretation rather than taking from it what it itself says.

I'll give you one quick example. Your brother uses the old RCC line about purgatory being in the Bible. Take just one of the passages he quotes in support of the RCC view: 1 Peter 6-7. "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." Read it. It has nothing to do with purgatory, and everything to do with this earth. What Paul is plainly saying is that NOW you may be going through many trials but they will act upon you like fire does on gold and will bring refine your faith as fire refines gold. This is a symbolism that he uses many times in the New Testament.

OK, you've got me going here. Let's keep on. Your brother uses 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 as a "proof" of purgatory, despite the fact that it says nothing about a soul being burned or punished in any way. It says: "10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

A simple reading is all it takes to see that Paul is talking about the work we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. The work we do in His name will be judged at the Bema seat. Here it tells us that non-perishable work—eternal work, selfless works done form a pure motive, symbolized by gold (righteousness: teaching the pure Word of God), silver (redemption: the leading of souls to Christ), precious stones (saints: works to edify the members of the body)—will come through the judgment fire and will have their reward. But perishable works—things done for self glory or through self interest or earthy wisdom (symbolized by wood, hay, straw which are all extremely flammable)—will be destroyed by those same flames. This has nothing to do with sins being burned away in purgatory. It is the simply the teaching of a truth. And if you look at the entire context (read the WHOLE third chapter) you will see that what I have said is borne out.

Also note the words "but so as by fire". The clear meaning of the Greek here is NOT that the soul will be burned by fire, but that is will be LIKE fire ... it literally says "as though as through fire." Not "through fire" but "as THOUGH as through fire".

And the word for "to suffer loss" is not, as your brother puts it, from a word that means to punish. His statement that the Greek word zēmiōthēsetai is from a root that means "punish" is just plain false. He cleverly (or more likely the Jesuits whom he has read) mixes up the great differences in active and passive meanings of this Greek word. Zēmiōthēsetai is the Third Person Singular Future Indicative Passive of the verb zémioó. This is important because IN THE PASSIVE (as you can see it is in this verse) zémioó ALWAYS means "to suffer loss". In NO WAY can it ever mean "punish". Your brother has been drinking the Jesuits' Koolaid. They love to play with words like that.

And they love to play games by twisting the meaning of simple thiings. Viz- your brother writes: "The early church relied on Jesus' teaching about God and heaven and His instructions on how his Church should be set up being handed down from the apostles to their hand-picked bishops and down throughout this apostolic lineage. This huge body of knowledge, too huge for the Bible, was kept and still is kept by the original apostolic Church. The knowledge itself is called Tradition. Used in this way tradition means Truths Taught by Jesus." No it does not. This is palpably false since there is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that approximates ANY of the major doctrines or practices of the Roman Cath9olic Church in the way they believe and practice them. We are led to believe that somehow the RCC has possession of many documents and traditions that have been lost outside. Baloney. Such documents and traditions would be in direct contradiction of the written Word of God as we have it for the majority of RCC doctrines and traditions alter or deny those of the Word and most have been ADDED to that church as time has gone by, the product of men's imaginations, not of God's teachings.

Those who defend the RCC's teachings should remember the eighteenth and nineteenth verses of the final chapter of the Bible:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." —Revelation 22:18-19

Anyway, I could go on and on and refute every point your brother brought up. But what is the point? Disputing the obvious is inane. And in the case of your brother and many like him, it is futile. His mind is made up and only the Holy Spirit can open spiritual eyes. We never can. So quit arguing with him. Instead, simply pray for him; pray that the Holy Spirit would cause him to see God's Word in counter-distinction to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Simply lift up Jesus and pray that your brother will accept Him as He is and obey that which He has truly taught in His Word and no longer view Him and His teachings as the RCC portrays them.

God bless,

Matt

[ljmoffice]

It seems that you are very troubled about your family's involvement with the RCC.(many posts on this topic) I understand that also...as most all of my friends are Catholic...including my BFF of 50+ years. She is a convert...and used to attend a Pilgrim Holiness church as a child. I have gotten into a few discussions with her in the past...but she is 100% committed to catholicism. She said it gives her a feeling of peace when she enters the church. I have talked to her about purgatory...all the usual stuff. I have come to the conclusion that I could talk until the cows come home and unless or until the Lord decides to intervene, and lead her to Him...by His Grace...then all is for naught. God calls His own....Also, Catholics who I know....will argue tit for tat against anything you or I might say. They are CONVINCED that they are Christ's Chosen Church....Peter is the rock...he has the keys....they eat the blood and flesh LITERALLY...blah. blah, blah. She works herself to death doing things for others. I would cease and desist with the harping on this subject with your family. Pray for their deliverence.....encourage them to READ THE BIBLE...although most of them won't b/c the church has convinced them that they are not smart enough to read God's Word. Anyway...as I said...let Go and Let God....IF it is HIS WILL, then HE will call them to HIM. Your input may really be hurting rather than helping the situation.

Anyway...that's my 2 cents

[Saved by Jesus]

He still is in dialogue......but eventually I will lose steam here. Already I am feeling quite drained over rebuttling his views of the RCC.

From my Pastor in answer to his issue with Purgatory.

Ok, take a deep breath. This is a very detailed response. Hope it helps!

As for the 15 so-called “purgatory” references, a careful look at each does not help any Catholic’s cause:

Hebrews 12:29 obviously refers to God as a consuming fire. It’s immediate context of 12:18-29 refers to the importance of believers building their lives on what cannot be shaken (the eternal things of Christ). Illustrations are given in 12:18-24 of earthly situations that God was intolerant of sin. Since God is a consuming fire, He will indeed burn away the non-eternal things that we may attempt to build our lives upon. This is nowhere referred to as a long, drawn out process. It is an instantaneous spiritual (non-physical) event that at the Judgment Seat of Christ (also mentioned in II Cor 5:10. This is a judgment only for believers. It does not determine who goes to heaven and who does not. The point behind the word, “consuming” is to show that everything sinfully man-centered that we cling to will simply not be taken with us into the eternal state. Catholics clearly impose the idea of purgatory onto these verses – making them say something the verses do not say. It’s another classic situation where Tradition always trumps Scripture for the Catholic.

The I Corinthians 3 passage also refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ. The illustrations of wood, hay, and stubble are used here to further describe God’s view of the ungodly things Christians embrace (including false doctrine). These are things that are instantly consumed. All the Greek word studies listed below are frankly misleading. The term “zemia” refers primarily to suffering loss, not punishment. It refers to the loss of something a person previously possessed. For instance, Paul (the writer of I Cor) uses the same term in this way when he wrote “I have suffered the loss (zemia) of all things” – Philippians 3:8. This was not some type of punishment from God… but rather God removed the false teaching/belief from Paul’s life. The loss of that false belief was a blow to his ego, and a major shift in life for Paul – therefore it was considered loss. Even if Paul meant “punishment” in I Cor 3, he was writing it from man’s perspective, not God’s perspective. What God sees as good and necessary, man often sees as a punishment (like a parent & child). It hurts to lose things, but everything in this text shows that the loss is instantaneous. If it was drawn out, then words like wood, hay, and stubble would not be used in the same idea as consumed.

The business about “houtos” in 1 Cor 3:15 is way overstated. It simply refers to the fire burning up the wood, hay, & stubble, while leaving only the eternal elements (as represented by gold, silver, precious stones). The eternal elements bring about greater reward in heaven, the lost elements (including false doctrine) are obliterated. The Greek word, sothesetai is a verbal form of sozo. Sometimes it refers to eternal salvation (Eph 2:5), but many other times refers to general rescuing, preserving safe & unharmed, to bring safely, or to restore health (for instance, when Peter was walking on the water and began to sink, he cried out “Lord save me!” Same Greek term sozo. Sometimes it simply means to preserve unharmed). Though God’s consuming fire produces instantaneous loss, the soul of the believer is preserved unharmed because it has been purchased w/ the blood of Jesus alone.

I Peter 1:6-7 simply refers to the persecution Peter’s recipients were enduring. God was allowing (“if need be” vs 6) them to endure trials that were comparable to fire in this life! Our faith is sometimes tried in this life with forces that seem as strong as fire. In the end they produce honor and glory for God. Anyone who thinks these verses are referring to purgatory is again changing the clear meaning of the text to fit their preconceived idea.

Jude 1:23 is clearly referring to our evangelistic efforts towards the living who are unsaved. It is preposterous to immediately assume Jude is referring to pulling the dead out of “purgatory.” The Biblical mandate has and will always be to bring the message of salvation and make disciples. The fire mentioned in this verse is clearly the flames of hell – the future destiny for unbelievers. It is stated in a graphic manner to show the urgency of our mission.

Revelation 3:18-19 is in the context of the Laodicean “church”. They are unsaved people whom the Lord desperately wanted to save. He is asking them to buy from God pure gold and white raiment and eyesalve. It is clearly metaphorical. We don’t use eyesalve with salvation and don’t make people put on white robes before they can go to heaven. These are all metaphors describing what Christ provides for us: he is like pure, refined gold, he makes us internally and externally pure with His blood (not fire), and His Spirit helps us to also see spiritually (see I Cor. 2:9-16). No Purgatory here either.

Daniel 12:10 is in a context that simply doesn’t allow for Purgatory either. Daniel had asked God, “when will this end come?” God’s reply was that before the end comes, many will suffer for their faith, and their faith will be made stronger due to their persecutions. The wicked will continue their wickedness. All of this in vs 12 refers to life on this earth before the end comes. To say vs 12 refers to purgatory would require us to white out everything else around the words “purified” and “tried.”

Zechariah 13:8-9 refers to a time during the Great Tribulation. Many people will be saved during this 7 year period just after the Rapture. These new believers will suffer greatly at the hands of the Antichrist. 2/3 will be killed. The remaining 3rd will suffer terribly, and will grow stronger in their faith as a result of this suffering. In other words, they will be refined through their physical earthly suffering. Then, Christ will return to set up His earthly kingdom. To say that the refining of Zech 13:8-9 is purgatory is a truly funny conclusion. The Catholic “scholars” are intentionally ignoring the context in an attempt to Biblically defend their false doctrine.

Malachi 2:2-3 cannot be read without verse 1, which speaks of none other than John the Baptist (Mark 1:2-3). This historically places the fulfillment of Malachi 1 at the time of John the Baptist (when “the Lord, whom ye seek will suddenly come into his temple.”) Verses 2-3 refer to Jesus’ life and ministry that He Himself would purify the sons of Levi – ultimately with His work on the cross. Even Malachi states that Christ doesn’t use real fire – “He (Christ) is like a refiner’s fire.”

To say that these verses refer to purgatory would eliminate an important prophecy about Jesus’ appearing just after 400 years after Malachi wrote.

Wis. 3:5-6 – and Sirach 2:5 - are both from extra-biblical sources and are not applicable to this discussion.

So much for “Biblically defending” Purgatory.

As for the extra Catholic books (that we would call the Apocrypha), please know that the leaders of the early church, almost without exception, rejected the Apocrypha. Neither Josephus in the 1st century, nor Melito in the 2nd century included any of the Apocrypha in their lists of holy books. Origen specifically referred to the Apocrypha as “uncanonical writings.” Others who were outspoken in their opposition to the Apocrypha included Athenasius, Cyril, and Ephiphanius. It was also omitted by the Jewish leaders of the church age at the Synod of Jamnia (AD 90). In 400 AD Jerome had a well documented dispute over these books with Augustine. Jerome clearly excluded them. While it may seem that Augustine fully accepted them, this is not true. Augustine clearly differentiated between human authorship of the Apocrypha and the divine inspiriation of Scripture. He still included the Apocrypha, but often relegated these books to a sort of “second class” status.

God Bless!

AND now my brother's response back to me after reading the above.

This is funny. I look at both explanations Catholic and the one from your pastor and they both go into quite a lot of detail about what they mean. However, I actually feel the Catholic explanation makes more sense. I'm not kidding. Again...this all comes down to interpretation. It also furthers my belief that if you put 5 different people in a room each person will describe it differently. It's why there are so many religions today and it's why religion is a business.

Why are you guys so blind? You make it sound like the Bible was written for 5 year olds. It's not. The truth is most people have a hard time understanding it because of the the way it is written. That is why you see easier to read versions put out all the time. I have two Bibles myself that I've owned for awhile. Guess what someone had to "interpret what "they" thought the bible was saying to write those. Plus, as long as their are different views and opinions then there can always be more religious factions started.

Interpretation , Interpretation : Until you know for a fact you are interpreting it the right way how do you really know? I'll tell you how....you don't!

That is what I am saying RCC or Not RCC they both interpret it differently. Only God knows the true way and I doubt he is going to condemn any of us for trying to understand his word the best they can. As long as we believe in him as in John 3:16

Well that was his answer....he just isn't getting it. :(

[mattfivefour]

Which is why I and ljmoffice have advised you to stop trying to argue with him. ljm suggests you could be doing more harm than good. I tend to agree. Just pray for him as suggested above, and lift up Jesus and Him alone. Forget the disputing. You are never going to win. this is a spiritual battle ... and prayer is the only road to victory at this point until God pricks his heart. I know that you love your brother and want to see him saved; but words will never do it. Prayer can.

[Saved by Jesus]

Oh I hae been praying......if you only knew how much.

I saw hiim on Sunday for his 3 year old daughter's birthday....he was fine with me there...we were not arguing...as far as his emails.....I don't take those as being sent angrily. He is very animated in emails. I just look at them as being a very spirited debate.

In fact even after him sending me the above he called me yesterday about something else and had no attitude with me whatsover.

Part of his hang-up I think might be due to the fact that my mom died 12 years ago from cancer and he was very close to her. I was as well. And while I cannot say 100% I think maybe he feels that by admitting that the RCC is 100% wrong it would be like admitting that my mom perhaps did not go to heaven. I know my brother well enough to know it would be extremely hard for him to deal with this possible reality. I think at times that is why he continues to have one foot in the door to the RCC and one foot outside the door because it's too painful to think of the alternative. And now since my Dad's cancer has returned and is in his bones I am sure he is thinking to reject the RCC now would be like admitting my dad might not end up in heaven either.

I have struggled with this same issue in the past but I do not claim to know where my mom's heart was and the relationship she had with Jesus, closer to when she died. YES, I pray she did not end up there. But even if she did I try to tell myself that she would want me to know the truth.....for that matter any person in hell would want to warn us and tell us the truth so we did not perish.

Outside of my brother bringing this up again I will just let him lead with this. I think my husband and I have given him as much evidence scriptually as possible. He is the youngest in my famly amongst brothers and sisters, I being the oldest.

At least he is willing to have a dialogue about it....without hanging up on me or giving me an attitude in person. But I agree.....it's almost like he is looking for proof and that's called faith and for some reason he is having difficulty coming to that place.

My husband said the other nite its like he is in a place in life where he doesn't know what to truly put his faith in 100% so he uses John 3:16 to cover all the bases.

But I won't stop praying because at one point I was in his same place....sitting on the fence, one foot in and one foot out. At least he is willing to talk about it. My other two sisters won't even do that much. :( Either that or I am just a terrible witness.

However, let this be yet another example to anyone trying to reach someone with the truth of the Gospel who is presently part of the RCC. It is extremely difficult because they are so deeply rooted, brainwashed to most extent into believing the LIE.

And when I think that Jesus went through this every day of his life on earth...dealing with those who rejected him, mocked him, scorned him and eventually killed him for revealing the TRUTH...well it's very humbling.

So again....maybe I am just a poor witness??....(believe me it has crossed my mind) I really don't know. Or I'm just expecting too much too soon.