Purgatory?

[snowfox]

I was visiting my parents home yesterday and they are very much Catholic. They had the Catholic radio station on and I couldn't help but to listen to this talk show. The topic of the talk show was purgatory. I didn't listen to a whole lot of it because I was busy. I don't feel like I can discuss things to much with my parents or get into any heavy dialogue with them. They are very sensitive when it comes to their Catholic faith and they are up there in years. What I had gotten from this radio show, was that Catholics still really believe in purgatory and that saints and relatives can pray one out of purgatory. This is nowhere in the Bible. Then again, Catholics have two books that we do not have. I don't believe this anyway. Oh yeah, they were talking about the immaculate conception of Mary. I got the impression that they believe Mary was immaculately conceived.

[BuzzardHut]

Here is an expose on Catholicism

[snowfox]

Thanks Buzz. I have listened to two links already on this interesting website.

[Ort]

Saying that there is a purgatory is basically saying that Christ's finishing work on the cross was simply not enough. That alone is blasphemous. There is no such thing as purgatory, as that is not Scriptural no matter how much catholics protest that it is. :)

[BruceWL]

Does anyone know where the idea of purgatory came from ?

[Ort]

I would hazard a guess that it came from the wrong interpretation of Jesus' story about Lazarus and the rich man in hell. Before Christ died and atoned for our sins, the righteous who looked forward to His coming could not enter heaven. They went to Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. The evil went to Gehenna, a horrible holding place that was hell-like. The rich man was in flames and was in agony, so it definately was hell-like.

When Christ rose, He ascended and brought with Him the souls of those righteous who died waiting for Him.

Somehow, I believe (and I could be wrong), purgatory got made up as a result of this.

[mattfivefour]

I would hazard a guess that it came from the wrong interpretation of Jesus' story about Lazarus and the rich man in hell. Before Christ died and atoned for our sins, the righteous who looked forward to His coming could not enter heaven. They went to Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. The evil went to Gehenna, a horrible holding place that was hell-like. The rich man was in flames and was in agony, so it definately was hell-like.

When Christ rose, He ascended and brought with Him the souls of those righteous who died waiting for Him.

Somehow, I believe (and I could be wrong), purgatory got made up as a result of this.

You are correct, Ort. This same place also is referenced in the OT as well. But once Christ conquered death, the righteous are taken to Heaven.

[e-man]

Do the Jews that are still waiting on their Messiah go to hell if they die? This is a serious question because I've heard both sides of the argument. Aren't they partially blinded or something?

[Robert]

Does anyone know where the idea of purgatory came from ?

The need for money?

[Ort]

Do the Jews that are still waiting on their Messiah go to hell if they die? This is a serious question because I've heard both sides of the argument. Aren't they partially blinded or something?

Anybody, Jew, Gentile or anything in between, that doesn't recognize Jesus as Lord and the only Way to the Father, will not see life, for as John the Baptizer said "God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36

Jesus is the only way to remove God's wrath, therefore if one doesn't have Jesus, one has not received Life, and is under God's wrath.

And, yes, "blindness has happened, in part, to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." (can't remember the verse!)

Because the Jews wouldn't accept Him the first time around, God then turned to the Gentiles to offer them salvation. For, it is "The Jew first, and then the Gentile." But if we get to feeling superior over the Jews, we should read Romans 11 with Godly fear and humbleness of heart.

[mattfivefour]

Ort, it's Romans 11:25.

[Ort]

Ort, it's Romans 11:25.

Of course. 2:

[mattfivefour]

Of course. 2:

2:

[Robert]

[voiceoftruth]

Hi All.

This is from the Council of Trent about Purgatory.

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."

The Council of Trent hurled 125 anathemas (eternal damnation) against Bible-believing Christians. The phrase anathemas does not only mean eternal damnation but also excommunication as well. So any person who is in the catholic church who does not agree with all that it teaches, in truth if the church was made known of the fact that they do not believe in all it teaches, they would be excommunicated from the church. This is something that confuses me when I here catholics on forums say that they are Bible believing Christians / born again believers, yet they are still in the catholic church & say there is no reason for them not to be.

As it states in the Council of Trents own declarations, if they do not agree with all the Church teaches & they believe only what the Bible says. Then they must be excommunicated from that same catholic church. So I am sure you can understand how this could confused someone, yes? I am not trying to cause any arguments here, I am just showing what the RCC's own Council of Trent & so there own rules state with regard to the Bible & what should & should not be taught. There are lots of things that the catholic church teaches that is not biblical, they have done as any cult does. They have taken the Bible & they have twisted its words to show that what they teach is the truth & no others have that same truth. But we have that true Bible to show otherwise, to show the truth of the word of God.

God Bless you all
VoT

[Jillian]

I would hazard a guess that it came from the wrong interpretation of Jesus' story about Lazarus and the rich man in hell. Before Christ died and atoned for our sins, the righteous who looked forward to His coming could not enter heaven. They went to Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. The evil went to Gehenna, a horrible holding place that was hell-like. The rich man was in flames and was in agony, so it definately was hell-like.

When Christ rose, He ascended and brought with Him the souls of those righteous who died waiting for Him.

Somehow, I believe (and I could be wrong), purgatory got made up as a result of this.

I had a priest to quote Matthew Chapter 5 verses 23-26 as a belief for purgatory. About not getting out of prison until you pay the last penny.

23 Therefore , if you bring your gift to the altar , and there remember that your brother has something against you,24 leave your gift there before the altar , and go your way . First be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly while you are on the way with him lest your adversary deliver you over to the judge , the judge hand you over to the officer and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

[Ort]

I had a priest to quote Matthew Chapter 5 verses 23-26 as a belief for purgatory. About not getting out of prison until you pay the last penny.

23 Therefore , if you bring your gift to the altar , and there remember that your brother has something against you,24 leave your gift there before the altar , and go your way . First be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly while you are on the way with him lest your adversary deliver you over to the judge , the judge hand you over to the officer and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Well, that priest sure got his excercise by jumping to the entirely wrong conclusion, scripturally. :) If there is a purgatory, then he is saying that Christ's finishing work on the cross, His atonement for us, wasn't good enough. How could any person supposedly grounded in Scripture even think such a thing? KWIM?

[Robert]

Well, that priest sure got his excercise by jumping to the entirely wrong conclusion, scripturally. :) If there is a purgatory, then he is saying that Christ's finishing work on the cross, His atonement for us, wasn't good enough. How could any person supposedly grounded in Scripture even think such a thing? KWIM?

By twisting scripture to fit their presuppositions, rather than submitting themselves to the guidance of the scripture.

Remember, in this day and age, no one who is worldly is going to want to submit themselves to God; instead, they want a system that can be molded to their whims. It speaks of most society: instead of changing to suit the conditions, they want to change their environment to suit THEM.

Unfortunately, God doesn't change for anyone "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17) ; he changes us to be like HIM: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

When a man subjects the word of God to HIS judgment, rather than submitting himself to the word of God, you get a mess like this, which is HERESY.

[Ort]

By twisting scripture to fit their presuppositions, rather than submitting themselves to the guidance of the scripture.

Remember, in this day and age, no one who is worldly is going to want to submit themselves to God; instead, they want a system that can be molded to their whims. It speaks of most society: instead of changing to suit the conditions, they want to change their environment to suit THEM.

Unfortunately, God doesn't change for anyone "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17) ; he changes us to be like HIM: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

When a man subjects the word of God to HIS judgment, rather than submitting himself to the word of God, you get a mess like this, which is HERESY.

:iagree:iagree

[mattfivefour]

By twisting scripture to fit their presuppositions, rather than submitting themselves to the guidance of the scripture.

Remember, in this day and age, no one who is worldly is going to want to submit themselves to God; instead, they want a system that can be molded to their whims. It speaks of most society: instead of changing to suit the conditions, they want to change their environment to suit THEM.

Unfortunately, God doesn't change for anyone "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17) ; he changes us to be like HIM: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

When a man subjects the word of God to HIS judgment, rather than submitting himself to the word of God, you get a mess like this, which is HERESY.

Another good post, Robert. I agree.