Question regarding homosexuality

[arapahoepark]

I was discussing this with youth group friends last night and it's interesting and would like your take. One asked what we thought about homosexuality and it was unanimous that it was a choice. But, the who asked the question said the same thing though with a twist. He had read or heard about some 'gay' pastor, but he's gay in the sense that he's attracted to men with that temptation. However, he affirms homosexuality to be a sin and remains celibate. One of the other guys said that it's a false premise, that one can still choose.

So I am wondering....where does one draw the line. One thinks that thinking in that 'attraction' way is a choice and a sin, while the other says it's only a temptation (but affirms that thoughts are wrong as well).

Your take please

[mattfivefour]

I do not believe that the attraction to ANY particular sin is a choice. It is something that develops in us as we grow for a variety of factors, some of which are known, some guessed at, some totally unknown. The one thing that is for sure is that it is all a product of our fallen human flesh. But I firmly believe—because the Bible teaches it—that engaging in the sin IS a choice. According to Hebrews 4:15, Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are." If being tempted is a sin, then Jesus was a sinner. But, of course, He was not because this very verse ends with the words "yet (he was) without sin." Therefore, clearly, the Biblical position is that being tempted is NOT a sin, but giving in to the temptation IS.

[Meg]

For those who don't know my history, the closest friend of my youth was a homosexual man who thought he was born that way. I knew him very well, and I knew his story (he passed last fall).

I think, for a sizable percentage of the homosexual population, its not about whether homosexuality is in fact a choice, I think what's at issue is that for many of these people, is that being homosexual is perceived as not being a choice (ie born that way). This was certainly the case with Bruce. Furthermore, in the case of the gay pastor, the man in question is not aware that Jesus Christ can heal someone from the inside. In fact many people don't realize that. I found out, because for me it wasn't homosexuality, it was something else I don't share, and the Lord healed it, taking me completely by surprise, during a worship service in 2006. I thought I was stuck with that until after I arrived in Heaven, but in fact, the Lord showed me that we have another sort of choice entirely, a choice to be free, truly free. I have personally experienced inner healing/deliverance from very serious anger as well and also heard of other forms of healing from deep rooted emotional/psychological agony as well. There is nothing hidden from the Lord, not even our deepest damage, and what our Holy Shepherd can see, He can also heal. Glory to His Holy Name, Jesus Christ.

[mattfivefour]

Thank you, Meg, for going beyond the basic doctrine I outlined and sharing the very real hope that is in Jesus Christ. Well done, sis!

[Meg]

Thank you, Meg, for going beyond the basic doctrine I outlined and sharing the very real hope that is in Jesus Christ. Well done, sis!

*blush* Thx Boss!

[OnceWasLost]

Well said, Meg!

It must be a choice, unless we believe God created them with no possibility of coming to Him in repentance. If Paul was correct and we are "New Creations" (II Cor 5:17) than it applies to whatever predisposition we may have. I am by nature not wired for monogamy, but God has changed my heart in that matter and His will has become mine because I am Born Again.

Honestly, denying impulses while holding to them, becomes a work of the flesh. However, if we allow God through His Holy Spirit, to recreate us, we don't have to suppress things we can have Him overcome what we were by His grace.

[mattfivefour]

Well said, OWL!

[GlennO]

IMO, Sin is sin. It comes with the Fall in the Garden. We broke it (the relationship with our Creator), and we cannot fix it. We all suffer under its weight.

He gave us a Savior, His Holy Spirit (the Helper) and an "owners manual" (the Bible).

Prayer and scripture are the sinners tools!

In the case of lust (I have various advanced degrees), here are some scriptures I've written down from on the back pages my bible.



Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust at a young woman [or male].

Mat 5:27 "You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman [or man] with lust has already committed adultery with her [or him] in his heart.

Rom 6:12-13
(12) Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.
(13) Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God.

Rom 8:3-8
(3) The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent His own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving His Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
(4) He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
(5) Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.
(6) So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
(7) For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.
(8) That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

Rom 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Rom 13:13 Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don't participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy.

Rom 13:14 Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don't let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires.

1Co 10:13
(13) The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, He will show you a way out so that you can endure.


Gal 5:16-17
(16) So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves.
(17) The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.


Col 3:5-10
(5) So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.
(6) Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.
(7) You used to do these things when your life was still part of this world.
(8) But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language.
(9) Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds.
(10) Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like Him.

1Th 4:3-8
(3) God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.
(4) Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor—
(5) not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and His ways.
(6) Never harm or cheat a Christian brother in this matter by violating his wife, for the Lord avenges all such sins, as we have solemnly warned you before.
(7) God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
(8) Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human teaching but is rejecting God, who gives His Holy Spirit to you.


Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
(12) And we are instructed to turn from godless living and sinful pleasures. We should live in this evil world with wisdom, righteousness, and devotion to God,
(13) while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.
(14) He gave His life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us His very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds.
(15) You must teach these things and encourage the believers to do them. You have the authority to correct them when necessary, so don't let anyone disregard what you say.

Jas 1:13-17
(13) And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and He never tempts anyone else.
(14) Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away.
(15) These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
(16) So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.
(17) Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.


1Pe 1:12-15
(12) They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.
(13) So think clearly and exercise self-control. Look forward to the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world.
(14) So you must live as God's obedient children. Don't slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn't know any better then.
(15) But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy.


1Jn 2:12-17
(12) I am writing to you who are God's children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.
(13) I am writing to you who are mature in the faith because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning. I am writing to you who are young in the faith because you have won your battle with the evil one.
(14) I have written to you who are God's children because you know the Father. I have written to you who are mature in the faith because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning. I have written to you who are young in the faith because you are strong. God's word lives in your hearts, and you have won your battle with the evil one.
(15) Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you.
(16) For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world.
(17) And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.


Rev 21:6-8
(6) And He also said, "It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life.
(7) All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be My children.
(8) "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
IMO, Sin is sin. It comes with the Fall in the Garden. We broke it (the relationship with our Creator), and we cannot fix it. We all suffer under its weight.

He gave us a Savior, His Holy Spirit (the Helper) and an "owners manual" (the Bible).

Prayer and scripture are the sinners tools!

In the case of lust (I have an advanced degree), here are some scriptures I've written down from on the back pages my bible.



Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust at a young woman [or male].

Mat 5:27 "You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman [or man] with lust has already committed adultery with her [or him] in his heart.

Rom 6:12-13
(12) Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.
(13) Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God.

Rom 8:3-8
(3) The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent His own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving His Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
(4) He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
(5) Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.
(6) So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
(7) For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.
(8) That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

Rom 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Rom 13:13 Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don't participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy.

Rom 13:14 Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don't let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires.

1Co 10:13
(13) The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, He will show you a way out so that you can endure.


Gal 5:16-17
(16) So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves.
(17) The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.


Col 3:5-10
(5) So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.
(6) Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.
(7) You used to do these things when your life was still part of this world.
(8) But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language.
(9) Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds.
(10) Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like Him.

1Th 4:3-8
(3) God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.
(4) Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor—
(5) not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and His ways.
(6) Never harm or cheat a Christian brother in this matter by violating his wife, for the Lord avenges all such sins, as we have solemnly warned you before.
(7) God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
(8) Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human teaching but is rejecting God, who gives His Holy Spirit to you.


Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
(12) And we are instructed to turn from godless living and sinful pleasures. We should live in this evil world with wisdom, righteousness, and devotion to God,
(13) while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.
(14) He gave His life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us His very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds.
(15) You must teach these things and encourage the believers to do them. You have the authority to correct them when necessary, so don't let anyone disregard what you say.

Jas 1:13-17
(13) And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and He never tempts anyone else.
(14) Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away.
(15) These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
(16) So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.
(17) Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.


1Pe 1:12-15
(12) They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.
(13) So think clearly and exercise self-control. Look forward to the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world.
(14) So you must live as God's obedient children. Don't slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn't know any better then.
(15) But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy.


1Jn 2:12-17
(12) I am writing to you who are God's children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.
(13) I am writing to you who are mature in the faith because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning. I am writing to you who are young in the faith because you have won your battle with the evil one.
(14) I have written to you who are God's children because you know the Father. I have written to you who are mature in the faith because you know Christ, who existed from the beginning. I have written to you who are young in the faith because you are strong. God's word lives in your hearts, and you have won your battle with the evil one.
(15) Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you.
(16) For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world.
(17) And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.


Rev 21:6-8
(6) And He also said, "It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life.
(7) All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be My children.
(8) "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

[mattfivefour]

Awesome post, Glenn!

[Hannah]

So I am wondering....where does one draw the line. One thinks that thinking in that 'attraction' way is a choice and a sin, while the other says it's only a temptation (but affirms that thoughts are wrong as well).

Your take please

First of all we all struggle with some kind of sin and ministers are not immune to that. Many ministers would have struggles with temptation in their heads but not act on it. I am not recommending we are the thought police here.

So the question about our thoughts and sin. this is what the Bible teaches on that subject.

MT 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

JAS 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

What you do with your mind is of course just as important as what you do with your body. It is not sin until it has had a time of conception. So you had to interact with the temptation before it could conceive sin. You will note what Jesus said about the man who looked at the woman, what he did was lust after her so he went beyond the temptation and entertained it with his mind.

Temptation is to be resisted not embraced if you are to have victory over sin.

MT 22:37 Jesus replied: " `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

We are to love the Lord with our minds not just our actions/deeds. So that requires we give our thoughts over to the Lord as well not just what we do but what we think.

RO 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Our thought life needs to be transformed and renewed so we start to have minds no longer conformed to this world.

PR 15:26 The LORD detests the thoughts of the wicked,but those of the pure are pleasing to him.

PS 10:4 In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

PHP 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

Those who come to Christ will struggle with their thought life to bring it also under submission to Christ.

As I said we cannot be the thought police to other Christians but this is the standard we are to follow. We are not free to entertain wickedness and evil in our minds. Just because we do not outwardly act on our sinful thoughts doesn't make them any less sinful. Our thoughts will be judged by God not just our actions and our words.

Now it doesn't matter what the SIN is and so I am putting aside the Celebate Homosexual Minister aside here.

All SIN is SIN wether it is comitted in your head or acted upon outside your head in the real world. It is not a SIN if it is a temptation your are struggling against. The Bible says the temptation has to be conceived into Sin and that requires the act of conception.

JAS 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin.

1CO 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Even Jesus was tempted but he didn't fall for the temptation. So when you get evil desires pop into your head you need to fight them so they don't give birth to Sin.

A truly Saved Believer will do more than just stop sinning outwardly but give their minds over to the Lord and discipline their thought lives and so honour God with their minds as well as their bodies.

[brethorn56]

GlennO,

I wanted to make two comments. First, great post and second, I never realized the amount of scripture in the “Owner’s Manual” that addresses this issue. It truly must be an important item in God’s eyes.

Very impressive!!!