Charasmatic / Pentacostal Question

[Ruth]

I sincerely do not intend this thread to cause division and strife. I simply want to understand a few things about those who are aware of the inner workings of this movement.

My questions are:

1. Why do they always seem to get so angry so easily? It seems that whenever I ask a question they get very upset and slam doors. This has happened with every single one I have had contact with and that includes at least 20-25 from various facets of life - real world and virtual world.

2. If any of them have the gift of healing - why don't they park themselves in a children's ward and heal the babies? If Jesus wanted to heal anyone through them - then you would think He would want the babies healed. Not one has been willing to answer that question.


I have done an in depth study of the original Greek and Hebrew and listened to many learned scholars on the matter and I am fully convinced that these 'gifts' as they claim are not valid today.

I do believe that God heals but not in the volume and manner that they state. I do believe in miracles and God's providential intervention in our lives but not the way it is presented in that movement.

Again - I am not looking to cause an argument or cause division. I would simply like anyone who is more aware (because I am new to all of this) to help me to understand.

I would like to reach out to these people in love but it seems like I just don't understand how they think and any help will be appreciated.

[Robbinson]

Ruth:

I belong to a Pentacostal congregation (Assembly of God). I promise - no offense taken at all by your questions. I do think, however, that you/we all need to be careful about "generalizations". So I speak here only for myself, and not for others. Within the Pentacostal and Charasmatic movement there people with many different views on these subjects.

See my thoughts below under your questions:

I sincerely do not intend this thread to cause division and strife. I simply want to understand a few things about those who are aware of the inner workings of this movement.

My questions are:

1. Why do they always seem to get so angry so easily? It seems that whenever I ask a question they get very upset and slam doors. This has happened with every single one I have had contact with and that includes at least 20-25 from various facets of life - real world and virtual world.

This is one of the generalizations I referred to. I don't get angry at anyone (try not to) and its not a Christian reaction. Those who do (regardless of denomination) are misguided

2. If any of them have the gift of healing - why don't they park themselves in a children's ward and heal the babies? If Jesus wanted to heal anyone through them - then you would think He would want the babies healed. Not one has been willing to answer that question.

I don't believe there are many who believe they have the gift of healing "on demand" - healing comes through the Holy Spirit and uses us as a vessel (I do not possess this gift). I do believe there are those who have this gift and who have, on occassion, been successful, at being the vessels through which God has cured the sick and infirm. I think healing comes only from belief by the sick and their faith in Jesus Christ, and then through the assistance of prayer and the laying of hands by one acting as God's vessel in distributing the healing- so the usual forum for healing are those seeking God and who, in faith, seek out those who appear to have the gift.


I have done an in depth study of the original Greek and Hebrew and listened to many learned scholars on the matter and I am fully convinced that these 'gifts' as they claim are not valid today.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here as you have stated a conclusion with no support - there is plenty of support in scripture for the ongoing gift of healing and other gifts of the Holy Spirit

I do believe that God heals but not in the volume and manner that they state. I do believe in miracles and God's providential intervention in our lives but not the way it is presented in that movement.

Again, respectfully, this is somewhat of a generalization. But I agree with you that there are plenty of incidences of "claims of healing" that are not valid - some are intentional (fraudulent, sadly), some out of overexcitement and a belief by the healer that they have the gift, when they may not. But that does not mean the gifts are not real for some - just like the fact that there are some who pervert the gospel doesn't mean that the gospel is not true.

Again - I am not looking to cause an argument or cause division. I would simply like anyone who is more aware (because I am new to all of this) to help me to understand.

I would like to reach out to these people in love but it seems like I just don't understand how they think and any help will be appreciated.

We know we are disciples of Christ when we love oneanother. I'm glad you asked the questions in the way that you did. I have found that Christians of various denominations tend to emphasize more on what divides us than on what unites us. I think these dialogues are healthy for the body of Christ. Thanks for the post

.

[Ruth]

Thank you for your response. My generalizations, as I prefaced in my OP, are completely based on the fact that every person I have met of that faith have 100% of the time lost their temper and slammed (virtual) doors when I asked these questions. So they are not generalizations but reasonable conclusions based on my experiences to date. I was saying that everyone that I have met have been consistent and therefore - prompted my questions. My OP question is that is there something about this faith system that causes such an overwhelming propensity to not have the reaonsable responses that you gave but instead they go on the defensive. It is not just a few but more of the majority.

I did not post my research results that brought me to my conclusions because I was not interested in getting into that discussion as to who is right and who is wrong but was simply stating that my own personal studies have convinced me of my position.

[paul&katie]

I can say that the gifts of the Sprit are alive and well today. Often misused/ abused and the gift of Tongues is the most misused/ abused of all of these. I know a lot of humble vary spiritual Christians who have had one or more of these gifts in their life. They are NEVER done in a public setting and they are never proclaimed ahead of time. i.e. “Well I have the gift of _____.” It seems that the Sprit comes in when needed and works through some people. I don’t think Spiritual gifts are something that should ever be ask for.

P&K

[Theresa]

Ruth - It appears that if you ask questions here, the door will not be slammed in your face. Your average just went a bit lower than 100%, PTL. :)

[ub4war]

My experience has varied

They are so loosely bound together that it is different from on Group to another

Oneness is another subject, Oneness Pentecostal theology affirms that there exists only one God in all the universe

It affirms the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, Oneness theology denies the Trinity.

Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."

Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

In addition, oneness theology also maintains that baptism is a necessary part of salvation; that is, in order to be saved, one must be baptized, by immersion.

If you are not baptized you cannot be saved. However, not only must baptism be by immersion, it must also be administered with the formula "In Jesus’ name" rather than the formula "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19.

Finally, this baptism must be administered by a duly ordained minister of a church that maintains oneness theology: United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc.


Oneness churches also teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Since a person cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), it follows that only those who have spoken in tongues are really saved.
Oneness groups are decidedly Armenian in the doctrine of salvation.
Oneness churches strongly imply that if you go to movies, or have a TV, or wear makeup, etc., then you are not "really" a Christian.

[firstlove]

I've actually found the opposite problem-those who do not believe in the Spiritual Gifts-especially the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-have a hard time accepting that some may have a different view of scripture and many many times, end up name calling or just getting angry and walking away.-or even worse, accuse me of not being "saved".

I am a Pentecostal Christian-(Assembly of God) I believe that the Bible teaches that not all Christians are baptised in the Spirit. (but they could and should be), and when it happens to us-the first physical evidence that this has occured is speaking in tongues as the Spirit enables us. It happens after salvation. (Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, Acts 10:41), and this tongue is not to be confused with the "gift of tongues" which is for the church gathered.

For the record-we believe in salvation by faith in Jesus Christ-and that water baptism AND Spirit baptism should happen to each Christian. And-the Trinity.

And I do believe-both from my Bible and personal experience-that the gifts are definitly valid today. Jesus is the Same Forever!

[sandy]

I sincerely do not intend this thread to cause division and strife. I simply want to understand a few things about those who are aware of the inner workings of this movement.

My questions are:

1. Why do they always seem to get so angry so easily? It seems that whenever I ask a question they get very upset and slam doors. This has happened with every single one I have had contact with and that includes at least 20-25 from various facets of life - real world and virtual world.

2. If any of them have the gift of healing - why don't they park themselves in a children's ward and heal the babies? If Jesus wanted to heal anyone through them - then you would think He would want the babies healed. Not one has been willing to answer that question.


I have done an in depth study of the original Greek and Hebrew and listened to many learned scholars on the matter and I am fully convinced that these 'gifts' as they claim are not valid today.

I do believe that God heals but not in the volume and manner that they state. I do believe in miracles and God's providential intervention in our lives but not the way it is presented in that movement.

Again - I am not looking to cause an argument or cause division. I would simply like anyone who is more aware (because I am new to all of this) to help me to understand.

I would like to reach out to these people in love but it seems like I just don't understand how they think and any help will be appreciated.

I'll probably get chewed on for what I have to say.

I grew up in the pentecostal stuff. and I dont want anything to do with it. what I have seen is that gifts are #1, little focus on fruit.
common sense goes right out the door with helping people as
its a devil needing prayed out. rather than ok, this person is hurting lets emotionally support them and lift them up.

ok this is embarressing but here it goes I was being molested by a uncle, and of course showing the side effects from it,
instead of like I said "common sense" in them, I was blasted with
"get behind me satan". as a kid I was horrified.
and no I was'nt one of those outta control kids either,
just severly depressed.

they have a "know it all" attitude. now thats not to say everyone does, but in my time and I'm in my late 40's, I have only seen 2 people who had any real kindness. they just dont seems to have "time" to really uplift others. they really believe you just say a prayer, pray the demon out, and there ya go.
and very very selfish. oh my....

I've had severe spiritual abuse in the pentecostal/charasmatic stuff.


I really believe their beliefs cause this.
I dont believe the gifts as the apostles had them are here today.
does God still heal yes!

I really feel that the intense focus on gifts has left to the exclusion of fruit, and the gifts will not work without the fruit.
and then it heads right into what the corinthian church was like.

I do not believe in another baptism of the HS.
we have the HS at the time of salvation.

oh yes, you will find them running on "feelings".

lots of bragging about which "gift" they have.
again to the exclusion of other scriptures.
and "they" dont have that gift.
God gives us love to pray for others then its HIS decision,
not ours.
and I'd bet too you might have run into those close into wof or
into it.

they can not scripturally back what they believe and "feel" its horrid to question what they believe to be god.

[Robbinson]

I'll probably get chewed on for what I have to say.

I grew up in the pentecostal stuff. and I dont want anything to do with it. what I have seen is that gifts are #1, little focus on fruit.
common sense goes right out the door with helping people as
its a devil needing prayed out. rather than ok, this person is hurting lets emotionally support them and lift them up.

ok this is embarressing but here it goes I was being molested by a uncle, and of course showing the side effects from it,
instead of like I said "common sense" in them, I was blasted with
"get behind me satan". as a kid I was horrified.
and no I was'nt one of those outta control kids either,
just severly depressed.

they have a "know it all" attitude. now thats not to say everyone does, but in my time and I'm in my late 40's, I have only seen 2 people who had any real kindness. they just dont seems to have "time" to really uplift others. they really believe you just say a prayer, pray the demon out, and there ya go.
and very very selfish. oh my....

I've had severe spiritual abuse in the pentecostal/charasmatic stuff.


I really believe their beliefs cause this.
I dont believe the gifts as the apostles had them are here today.
does God still heal yes!

I really feel that the intense focus on gifts has left to the exclusion of fruit, and the gifts will not work without the fruit.
and then it heads right into what the corinthian church was like.

I do not believe in another baptism of the HS.
we have the HS at the time of salvation.

oh yes, you will find them running on "feelings".

lots of bragging about which "gift" they have.
again to the exclusion of other scriptures.
and "they" dont have that gift.
God gives us love to pray for others then its HIS decision,
not ours.
and I'd bet too you might have run into those close into wof or
into it.

they can not scripturally back what they believe and "feel" its horrid to question what they believe to be god.

I'm sorry you had such an aweful experience (on every level - both the abuse, and the experience with other Christians in your former congregation). The intensity of your post shows that perhaps you have retained some anger at some in your former congregation. I'm sorry if they hurt you - but you should also try to let that go.

But please don't generalize about an entire movement/denomination based upon your personal experience with one congregation. I, like Firstlove, belong to an Assembly of God congregation - and our community and church experience is nothing at all like you describe.

One constructive criticism (not directed at you personally - directed at all of us - to the Board generally) has been a tendancy to criticize other Christians along denominational lines. At least there has been "equal" treatment in the mudlinging category - I think over the years just about every denomination has been slamed by someone with a different view. But lets all try to be bigger than that. We are Christians - and we should love one another and while respectful debate about theology is healthy and should be encouraged, it should be done in love and with respect. Lets focus on what Unites us all (our love of, and faith in, Christ). I promise to do my part along these lines.

Regards

[sandy]

I'm sorry you had such an aweful experience (on every level - both the abuse, and the experience with other Christians in your former congregation). The intensity of your post shows that perhaps you have retained some anger at some in your former congregation. I'm sorry if they hurt you - but you should also try to let that go.

But please don't generalize about an entire movement/denomination based upon your personal experience with one congregation. I, like Firstlove, belong to an Assembly of God congregation - and our community and church experience is nothing at all like you describe.

One constructive criticism (not directed at you personally - directed at all of us - to the Board generally) has been a tendancy to criticize other Christians along denominational lines. At least there has been "equal" treatment in the mudlinging category - I think over the years just about every denomination has been slamed by someone with a different view. But lets all try to be bigger than that. We are Christians - and we should love one another and while respectful debate about theology is healthy and should be encouraged, it should be done in love and with respect. Lets focus on what Unites us all (our love of, and faith in, Christ). I promise to do my part along these lines.

Regards

yes, there still is anger. a lot of hurt.
I can forgive but that does'nt change what happened.

and you have to realize I'm not the only one who has this problem!
this was in a "nice" foursquare church, been to AOG,
then the other pastor was molesting a child and went to prison.

now is "everyone" in these like this? no but MOST are.

do I say this out of hate? no but love.
fruit is of utmost importance! one day they must stand before the Lord!

[firstlove]

yes, there still is anger. a lot of hurt.
I can forgive but that does'nt change what happened.

and you have to realize I'm not the only one who has this problem!
this was in a "nice" foursquare church, been to AOG,
then the other pastor was molesting a child and went to prison.

now is "everyone" in these like this? no but MOST are.

do I say this out of hate? no but love.
fruit is of utmost importance! one day they must stand before the Lord!

I'm sorry that these things happened to you, and of course, no matter what church they happened in-it is very wrong and abhorant to our Lord-however, your statement "now is everyone in these like this? no but MOST are" is not only uncalled for but also an untruth concerning brothers and sisters in the Lord. Please refrain.

Also, those things, bad as they may be, do not negate from the truth of the Baptism in the Spirit and the Gifts being active today.

[sandy]

I'm sorry that these things happened to you, and of course, no matter what church they happened in-it is very wrong and abhorant to our Lord-however, your statement "now is everyone in these like this? no but MOST are" is not only uncalled for but also an untruth concerning brothers and sisters in the Lord. Please refrain.

Also, those things, bad as they may be, do not negate from the truth of the Baptism in the Spirit and the Gifts being active today.

no I will not refrain. it is truth. I do NOT say it in hate or anger,
it just is. this is one reason many are so hurt, weak,
ect. sure its not pretty, but something that needs attention to get cleaned up. not to be swept under the rug.
this is going on all over the place.

the lack of discernment in the church is unreal.
the church is for the hurting.

and we are given the HS at the time of salvation.
show me where there is another baptism of the HS.

we have a very very important responsibility to one another,
most do not like to admit what really goes on.

I do not believe that the gifts as the apostles had them are still here. when was the last time you saw someone grow a arm or leg?
I hear plenty tout they have the gift. I've yet to see any of it.

we pray and even pray with the person, but then its Gods will not ours His decision to heal and "when" it will be done.

the apostles gifts were called "sign" gifts. they were the sign of an apostle.

fruit is extremely important. otherwise the gift is empty.

[BuzzardHut]

Whenever you have people in a church you are going to have problems.

[Ruth]

I can say that the gifts of the Sprit are alive and well today. Often misused/ abused and the gift of Tongues is the most misused/ abused of all of these. I know a lot of humble vary spiritual Christians who have had one or more of these gifts in their life. They are NEVER done in a public setting and they are never proclaimed ahead of time. i.e. “Well I have the gift of _____.” It seems that the Sprit comes in when needed and works through some people. I don’t think Spiritual gifts are something that should ever be ask for.

P&K

When you say they are misused - and based on your example - are you saying then that there is tone of pride in the misuse?

Because I honestly think that it is pride in being special that causes both the misuse/abuse and tone of anger that I hear when I question them on things. It is almost as if my question is challenging their identity of themselves by their gift rather than their humility in their position as a sinner saved by grace as the rest of us are.

Just my thoughts on what may be occuring with those who get angry with my questions.

[Ruth]

I'll probably get chewed on for what I have to say.

I grew up in the pentecostal stuff. and I dont want anything to do with it. what I have seen is that gifts are #1, little focus on fruit.
common sense goes right out the door with helping people as
its a devil needing prayed out. rather than ok, this person is hurting lets emotionally support them and lift them up.

ok this is embarressing but here it goes I was being molested by a uncle, and of course showing the side effects from it,
instead of like I said "common sense" in them, I was blasted with
"get behind me satan". as a kid I was horrified.
and no I was'nt one of those outta control kids either,
just severly depressed.

they have a "know it all" attitude. now thats not to say everyone does, but in my time and I'm in my late 40's, I have only seen 2 people who had any real kindness. they just dont seems to have "time" to really uplift others. they really believe you just say a prayer, pray the demon out, and there ya go.
and very very selfish. oh my....

I've had severe spiritual abuse in the pentecostal/charasmatic stuff.


I really believe their beliefs cause this.
I dont believe the gifts as the apostles had them are here today.
does God still heal yes!

I really feel that the intense focus on gifts has left to the exclusion of fruit, and the gifts will not work without the fruit.
and then it heads right into what the corinthian church was like.

I do not believe in another baptism of the HS.
we have the HS at the time of salvation.

oh yes, you will find them running on "feelings".

lots of bragging about which "gift" they have.
again to the exclusion of other scriptures.
and "they" dont have that gift.
God gives us love to pray for others then its HIS decision,
not ours.
and I'd bet too you might have run into those close into wof or
into it.

they can not scripturally back what they believe and "feel" its horrid to question what they believe to be god.

Thank you so very much for sharing your struggle and thank you for your honesty. This is exactly what I have heard from others and consistently experienced myself when coming into contact with someone of this denomination (save for those who have responded here in this thread)

It would be wonderful if, rather than defending against my concerns, more would be honest about this troubling pattern that exists among those who hold up the gifts and baptism of the Holy Spirit as the most important aspect of their belief. And yes - there are problems within every denomination and while that is true - I am simply trying to understand this particular denomination's peculiarity.

Thank you again for helping me to better understand what I am running up against. You have helped to clarify what I am dealing with. Perhaps now I can pray about the most loving way to respond to them in the future.

Those who deny this is prevalent in this belief system and simply wish to say that I am being to judgmental and generalizing too much are not helping me to address an issue that does exist whether they wish to acknowledge it or not.

[Robbinson]

Thank you so very much for sharing your struggle and thank you for your honesty. This is exactly what I have heard from others and consistently experienced myself when coming into contact with someone of this denomination (save for those who have responded here in this thread)

It would be wonderful if, rather than defending against my concerns, more would be honest about this troubling pattern that exists among those who hold up the gifts and baptism of the Holy Spirit as the most important aspect of their belief. And yes - there are problems within every denomination and while that is true - I am simply trying to understand this particular denomination's peculiarity.

Thank you again for helping me to better understand what I am running up against. You have helped to clarify what I am dealing with. Perhaps now I can pray about the most loving way to respond to them in the future.

Those who deny this is prevalent in this belief system and simply wish to say that I am being to judgmental and generalizing too much are not helping me to address an issue that does exist whether they wish to acknowledge it or not.

Ruth/Sandy:

If either of you are ever in the New York/Ct area, it would be my great pleasure to have you join us in fellowship and worship in our AOG congregation. I think you would find a very different experience than what you have described.

I have not personally experienced what you have described in other AOG or Calvary churches I have attended (as a guest), but I'm not questioning you regarding your experiences. I imagine there are many churches, among virtually every denomination, where we might find some (or even many) who offend us for one reason or another. I just find generalization about denominations made up of literally millions of believers to be not constructive or fair. I will say, that like every deonimination, there certainly are non-believers within the mix who, while perhaps with the best of intentions, may pervert the gospel and offend some (many). That is, in fact, IMO, the biggest threat to Christianity - bigger than any external threat post by secular socieity or other religions. From within the Church, we can be our own worst enemy. I'll reiterate from my prior posts - We all need to focus on what unites us, rather than on what divides us. If another Christian offends you, you should discus it with them - discuss scripture, try to reconcile differences, and if there remain disagreements over theology, so be it. Do you really believe that everyone, or even a majority, of believers within any major protestant denomination are just "wrong" or "misled" or worse? I'm not asking whether you disagree with particular aspects/interpretations of scripture - i mean on core Christian theology?

To me, the Holy Spirit is a critical part of Christian theology (it is part of the Trinity - no less important than the Father or Christ). But I enjoy fellowship with Chrisitians of other denominations and enjoy what we have in common and mostly enjoy the challenge of respectful debate and discussion of God's word - I am constantly growing and my mind remains open - I don't know it all (not even close), but I love the journey of learning and sharing. Perhaps this thread can serve as an opportunity to do that with each of you.

Regards

[Ruth]

Robbinson - I appreciate your approach - but continually asking us to simply sweep the problem under the rug because you believe it to be an isolated case is more of you making judgments about us than the fact that we are sincerely and IN LOVE trying to bring something out that is a problem with people who believe in the 'gifts of the spirit' as is in the denomination mentioned. It is specific to this group and because of the pride that it has a tendancy to draw out in people - it has caused problems. At least that is part of what some who have sincerely tried to resolve the problem with me here have helped me to understand.

If you don't have any thing to help us in finding the root of the problem so it can be dealt with in a Christian manner - than please do not keep alluding to the fact that you think we are being unfairly judgmental because ironically - while you are defending one position - you are judging us.

[Robbinson]

Robbinson - I appreciate your approach - but continually asking us to simply sweep the problem under the rug because you believe it to be an isolated case is more of you making judgments about us than the fact that we are sincerely and IN LOVE trying to bring something out that is a problem with people who believe in the 'gifts of the spirit' as is in the denomination mentioned. It is specific to this group and because of the pride that it has a tendancy to draw out in people - it has caused problems. At least that is part of what some who have sincerely tried to resolve the problem with me here have helped me to understand.

If you don't have any thing to help us in finding the root of the problem so it can be dealt with in a Christian manner - than please do not keep alluding to the fact that you think we are being unfairly judgmental because ironically - while you are defending one position - you are judging us.

Yikes - I fear the only ones being judgemental here are you and Sandy - I think my posts/responses have been precicely Christian in nature - one could wonder about the statements in some of the other posts in this thread. But I know I am not perfect (far from it), so if I have said anything even remotely non-Chrisitian or judgemental, I apologize (but I don't see it in my replies). That being said - since you keep reiterating this is a systemic problem in my denomination (and other pentacostal denominations - quite a broad statement when you sit back and reflect on that), I didn't realize you had done a survey of the millions of charasmatic/pentacostal believers and made a determination that "most" or a "majority" share the defect in character you and Sandy referred to in your posts (obviously - I know you did not - so you must be making a broad generalizing based upon your personal experiences). I've tried to respond in love, and will continue to do so - but sadly, I have nothing to add further to this thread other than to pray FOR ALL OF US to avoid recrimination of others and the temptation to paint with a broad brush. I'm not sweeping anything under the rug - that is not in my nature - to the contrary, I try to build unity in the body of Christ (which has been the consistent theme in my prior replies) y

Regards, and in love

[firstlove]

no I will not refrain. it is truth. I do NOT say it in hate or anger,
it just is. this is one reason many are so hurt, weak,
ect. sure its not pretty, but something that needs attention to get cleaned up. not to be swept under the rug.
this is going on all over the place.

the lack of discernment in the church is unreal.
the church is for the hurting.


:You do not know me, nor the church I attend-and while I'm not doubting your experience-you cannot say with truthfullness that this happens in "most of the church." Please try and be more honest.

and we are given the HS at the time of salvation.
show me where there is another baptism of the HS.

Yes, we are given the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation-but the Bible teaches that there is more-Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6, Acts 8-for a few examples

we have a very very important responsibility to one another,
most do not like to admit what really goes on.

It doesn't go on in "most churches" so you have thrown stones-again

I do not believe that the gifts as the apostles had them are still here. when was the last time you saw someone grow a arm or leg?
I hear plenty tout they have the gift. I've yet to see any of it.


we pray and even pray with the person, but then its Gods will not ours His decision to heal and "when" it will be done.

the apostles gifts were called "sign" gifts. they were the sign of an apostle.

fruit is extremely important. otherwise the gift is empty.

Yes, without fruit we are ALL empty-including you.

The gifts of the Spirit are just that-gifts. They have not passed away-they will not until "that which is perfect is come" and "we know as we are known." -but neither are they at our beck and call like party tricks. If you would like to discuss the Biblical aspects of the baptism in the Spirit and the gifts-I'm more than willing to bring forth the Truth of Scripture in this matter-but your unsubstantiated slander against the Body of Our Lord just makes you sound less credible.-If you really feel the baptism in the Spirit happens automatically at salvation=and the gifts have passed away-then you should use scriptures to back up your claim instead of merely slander and unkind words.

[Ruth]

Yikes - I fear the only ones being judgemental here are you and Sandy - I think my posts/responses have been precicely Christian in nature - one could wonder about the statements in some of the other posts in this thread. But I know I am not perfect (far from it), so if I have said anything even remotely non-Chrisitian or judgemental, I apologize (but I don't see it in my replies). That being said - since you keep reiterating this is a systemic problem in my denomination (and other pentacostal denominations - quite a broad statement when you sit back and reflect on that), I didn't realize you had done a survey of the millions of charasmatic/pentacostal believers and made a determination that "most" or a "majority" share the defect in character you and Sandy referred to in your posts (obviously - I know you did not - so you must be making a broad generalizing based upon your personal experiences). I've tried to respond in love, and will continue to do so - but sadly, I have nothing to add further to this thread other than to pray FOR ALL OF US to avoid recrimination of others and the temptation to paint with a broad brush. I'm not sweeping anything under the rug - that is not in my nature - to the contrary, I try to build unity in the body of Christ (which has been the consistent theme in my prior replies) y

Regards, and in love

I sincerely believe we are looking at this problem with two entirely different set of eyes. So let me try to clarify how I am not broad stroaking incorrectly.

Point 1: The gifts of speaking in tongues, healing, and some of the other 'gifts' that are specific to this denomination is what makes this denomination the focus of the discussion. I do hope that makes sense.

Point 2: Everyone in this denomination (again - except for here with a few of you) will come out defending their denomination to the point of getting mean and slamming doors rather than understand that there is a problem and help to resolve the problem of pride that is unique to this denomination due to the nature of their beliefs.

Point 3: I don't need to survey all the millions in the denomination.
It is not a matter of everyone in the church having this problem but everyone having this problem that I have met are uniquely in this denomination. I can say with 100% certainty if someone who gets upset about my questioning the validity of speaking in tongues as is done in the charasmatic church IS in fact charasmatic. So that means that every single person who gets upset about this issue is a charasmatic. NOT that everyone who is a charasmatic gets upset about this issue - do you see the difference?

So everyone who gets upset IS of that denomination. Does that make it a little clearer. I sure hope so because this has been really hard to get you guys to see what we are saying instead of just telling us we are wrong and defending your denomination - which, ironically is part of exactly what we are saying.

Sadly, it isn't easy to find an open heart to hear people's concerns but very easy to find an instant banner of defense and then, in our experiences, anger that follows.
In a way - you are proving our point by simply defending what you say we are wrong about instead of helping us to understand how to deal with it when we run across the problem - which have always found in this denomination. Whew - this is getting to complicated.

Maybe - here is an example:

Everyone who voted was a registered voter - but not all registered voters voted.

Does that help to show you what I am trying to say?