Molding values, “Where do Pro-Life views and Jesus fit in?”

[mikhen7]

For this post I would like to lay all philosophical arguments aside. I want to approach this subject from a decision making perspective based upon upholding one value over another at crunch time. The moment I refer too is Obama's election in 2008. I know it is old news but the point I make is still a valid one. During the election many, many pro-lifers voted for Obama based upon placing other values higher than his record of supporting of killing babies even to the late third term. One article entitled "Pro-Life Catholics For Obama" Should abortion be the litmus test for political support? -quoted a law professor, Nicholas Cafardi, from Duquesne university reasoning his stance from three points of view:

“First, according to Cafardi, Catholics have, as a matter of law, "lost the abortion battle ... and I believe that we have lost it permanently." Second, abortion is not the only "intrinsic evil" of the day; ... Third, Senator Obama "supports government action that would reduce the number of abortions," ..." 1

Cafardi added excuses to the points above. I purposely did not quote them because excuses are not the points on which we make decisions but are the reasons we offer for why we make decisions. The cold hard facts are what we need to face before a decision is arrived at. One attitude for looking at issues is embodied in the belief that, "If a problem exists, just kill the problem." We have all been guilty of that mentality in one way or another; it could just be a bill that is due or another debt that needs to be paid so we "kill it" by paying it. Or maybe it is handled by simply escaping the problem through replacing it with another preoccupation either for good or bad. But for others, to escape means to go the full mile and literally “kill” the prickly issue that jabs at our side—as in the "abortion" issue.

In the case, with Obama, one cold hard fact is his adamant support of the killing of innocent children. For the Christian, my question is—barring eternal life in Christ as a political issue, “Can there be any other topic more important than life? When in the voting booth, can one, two, three or more reasons stack up high enough to over-ride killing babies?” Look at it this way, on one platform lie two pallets. On one pallet is a stack of issues you agree with a particular candidate on and on the other pallet is a stack of dead babies, whether directly or indirectly that same candidate supports. This platform runs against a platform that also has two pallets, one with living children and one with issues you do not necessarily agree with. When making a decision to cast your support, "What is more important?" Obviously, no one ethically or in their right mind, wants to view or support a pallet loaded with dead babies so let’s just move the other pallet in front of it and we can effectively hide the issue. Now excuses can be offered and a vote for the candidate can be clearly made with a "pseudo-clear conscious" such as the world is always wont to offer.

Let's look at this from another angle using "sanctification or salvation" as the topic. Here is the choice for believers, "Do I believe that my decision to believe upon Christ is because I have sinned against Him, therefore I am guilty of judgment and desire His forgiveness?" or "Do I believe that my decision to believe upon Christ is because I just want to have Eternal life, but I am no worse a person than any other?"

In considering the first choice a case can be made for devotion and sanctification. One realizes based upon conviction of the heart and life lived coupled with the revealed truth in Scripture, that they are sinners and have done so against a Holy God. They know the way to reconcile this is through the forgiveness that Christ paid for on the cross and subsequently, freely offers to all who will believe upon Him and His accomplishments for us. Because of His action of love, love is returned and thanksgiving is poured out through DAILY devotion to Him, His worship and service. On the other hand, that type of a case cannot be made for the second choice because there is no heartfelt "Need-to-Change." For this reason, and from a spiritual outlook, there is nothing that exists to be fully devoted too. There is the feeling of satisfaction that you did what you have been told to do but nothing else. In other words a spiritually constraining reason to make good decisions for you, your family, and others does not exist with enough weight to make it the litmus for judging the daily decisions of life. Because of this, other things can become weightier in importance and in turn, an attitude can be developed that entails making decisions based upon personal choice but not because you want to be fully devoted to Christ and what He feels is important. How Jesus feels is not important enough. You care more for yourself; how you will be affected becomes what matters most.

Does anybody else see my point? I am posting and asking because I see this happening on other levels as well. Such as being a simple witness for Christ. Or Godly fear directing how we carry ourselves in conversation with non-believers. Now some may think I am too myopic in my worldview, but my worldview of things has been shaped by my adamant stance for Jesus Christ and His commission. For some reason (tongue-in-cheek), I have arrived at a point in my life where “What Jesus thinks is more important than what others think.” I feel my personal well-being takes second place to Him because He is control of my personal well-being. In America, this fall, we will be faced with making decisions for presidency if the Lord waits longer to take us home.

How will we base our decisions? For those not in the USA how will you choose to make your decisions about similar issues? Does it matter? And finally, “What will it take to make it matter?”

1 Opinion: Can Catholics Back Pro-Choice Obama? - The Daily Beast

[Carl]

Compromise the engine for a slow death. I agree with #1 whole heartedly. Why would God allow His Only Son to die for my sin if He didn't expect me to admit that I needed that sacrifice?

[mattfivefour]

I understand your topic, Mike, but something you said jumped out at me as being very, VERY important for all of us. And it has nothing directly to do with the purpose for which you posted.

Let's look at this from another angle using "sanctification or salvation" as the topic. Here is the choice for believers, "Do I believe that my decision to believe upon Christ is because I have sinned against Him, therefore I am guilty of judgment and desire His forgiveness?" or "Do I believe that my decision to believe upon Christ is because I just want to have Eternal life, but I am no worse a person than any other?"

This either-or statement is a crucial one, Mike. Before anything else—before considering any topic at all—we each need to examine ourselves and decide which of the two statements applies to us. Option one results in salvation; option two does not. Given that our hearts are most deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) we had better be sure of our motive in coming to Christ. I am not trying to minister ungodly fear to anyone: the questions is very simple to answer. I just want everybody to take the few seconds to ponder and be assured in their minds that they did not make a shallow profession of Christ but one from the heart, recognizing their own sin and their total need for the Savior. Everything else in Christianity ... all doctrine and everything else ... is dependent on that one thing.

[mikhen7]

I understand your topic, Mike, but something you said jumped out at me as being very, VERY important for all of us. And it has nothing directly to do with the purpose for which you posted.



This either-or statement is a crucial one, Mike. Before anything else—before considering any topic at all—we each need to examine ourselves and decide which of the two statements applies to us. Option one results in salvation; option two does not. Given that our hearts are most deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) we had better be sure of our motive in coming to Christ. I am not trying to minister ungodly fear to anyone: the questions is very simple to answer. I just want everybody to take the few seconds to ponder and be assured in their minds that they did not make a shallow profession of Christ but one from the heart, recognizing their own sin and their total need for the Savior. Everything else in Christianity ... all doctrine and everything else ... is dependent on that one thing.

I totally agree brother! That is my point. Decisions are being made by many people about important things that affect the nation and families and the church without Jesus being involved! Selfish decisions. Decisions that do not take their professed Christianity and other believers into account. I am very burdened with this and I feel it is a part of the weakness we see in Christian circles. It is easy to profess Christ before others. But why do we not see it in everyday decisions including the ballot box?? I know a whole slew of so-called believers who voted for Obama because they liked his financial policy. If you ask them point blank they will say they are strong pro-lifers. But their actions do not attest to faith in Christ. These are not members of the church I attend but nonetheless prominent members of another church--even teachers!!!!!! I honestly cannot say they are saved. I know God is the judge. May God have mercy! May God bring this sin to the forefront! Sometimes I feel like Jeremiah. I just hurt for the sin of the people. Thanks for seeing the story behind the story brother!!

God bless!!

[ANY MINUTE]

It sometimes seems as Christians today, we are constantly having to choose between the lesser of two evils when participating in much of the decisions of this world. We all know the lesser of evil, is still evil.

Is choosing a candidate who is pro-life manditory as a Christian? I would hope so!
What if it's a pro-life Mormon, other cult member, or non-believer that we have to choose from? When standing for biblical, Godly principles we certainly shouldn't make Jesus secondary to gaining any one value. A president, leader, business owner, or any one else for that matter is still lost and incapable/unqualified to lead Christians if the real Jesus isn't the reason for their very existance.

Compromise does seem to be a major factor in all the worldly choices we're faced with. Standing strong in faith, keeping Jesus the focus of all we do seems to be a battle all Christians are engaged in while in this flesh. When you follow many paths of this world to their conclusion, you don't usually find God there. It may have looked like God when we start off, be it work, church, elections or what have you, but when it inevitably starts to mix with worldly values, compromise slowly creeps in and changes everything.

God knows better than we do what our intent is or the condition of our heart when we make any decision. So many times I've given support or money to causes that on the surface seemed to be the right thing to do, to find out that at the other end of that decision is something I would never knowingly support.

Great post Mike, you pose some serious questions to think about. Jesus first in all we do!

[mikhen7]

God bless you brothers!! I agree wholeheartedly Daniel. I was using pro-Life as an example. Given anytime decisions are made, our faith in Christ--our relationship to Him--our family--and our want to serve and protect others for His names sake, should all be taken into consideration. Would I support a Pro-Life Mormon, absolutely not. As a matter of fact there are other choices. If there were no other choice I would write in a candidate. My choice may not make sense but I cannot place my x next to a name that does not stand for values and ethics. Note: I have always voted and will still vote. But my vote should reflect something that is pleasing to God. If the person supports issues that would hurt or hinder freedom of religion or result in oppression of others and even persecution, no way.

Now put this another way. what if the choices were both Pro-Choice, Anti-Christian, and Pro-Muslim? Which will you vote for? I will vote for none of them! Is that unpatriotic? In my book it is not. I cast my vote for Jesus-For Life!!

God Bless!!

[mattfivefour]

I am in a quandary. Upon reflection upon God's Word, I have begun to think that to vote for the lesser of two evils because it is the LESSER of two evils may actually be a level of unbelief. It is saying that I will vote against my conscience because this is the only way to get rid of a greater evil among our leaders, totally ignoring God's ability to shape any government after His will and for His purposes. If I believe God is in control, then surely I do not have to vote against my conscience? But on the other hand, would I be culpable if I did not vote and thus permitted a pro-abortion leader to gain power, rather than voting for his equally ungodly, yet anti-abortion, opponent? By voting, am I denying God's omnipotence and thus His absolute capacity to ensure the government that should be in power? Or by not voting am I allowing what God does not want but will permit because, after all, a nation gets the leaders it deserves?

O Lord! Give me the wisdom to choose the correct path!!!

[ANY MINUTE]

I am in a quandary. Upon reflection upon God's Word, I have begun to think that to vote for the lesser of two evils because it is the LESSER of two evils may actually be a level of unbelief. It is saying that I will vote against my conscience because this is the only way to get rid of a greater evil among our leaders, totally ignoring God's ability to shape any government after His will and for His purposes. If I believe God is in control, then surely I do not have to vote against my conscience? But on the other hand, would I be culpable if I did not vote and thus permitted a pro-abortion leader to gain power, rather than voting for his equally ungodly, yet anti-abortion, opponent? By voting, am I denying God's omnipotence and thus His absolute capacity to ensure the government that should be in power? Or by not voting am I allowing what God does not want but will permit because, after all, a nation gets the leaders it deserves?

O Lord! Give me the wisdom to choose the correct path!!!

I think many of us feel that pain. It was what I was getting at with out spelling it out, you said it so much better Brother.

I don't usually comment on politics and I didn't want to derail, but I fear a Romney/ Obama choice, I will have to vote my conscience from a Christian worldview and go with a write in if necessary. I know O must go but at what cost, big evil for lesser evil

Amen, may we all pray for the wisdom to choose correctly.

[mikhen7]

I am in a quandary. Upon reflection upon God's Word, I have begun to think that to vote for the lesser of two evils because it is the LESSER of two evils may actually be a level of unbelief. It is saying that I will vote against my conscience because this is the only way to get rid of a greater evil among our leaders, totally ignoring God's ability to shape any government after His will and for His purposes. If I believe God is in control, then surely I do not have to vote against my conscience? But on the other hand, would I be culpable if I did not vote and thus permitted a pro-abortion leader to gain power, rather than voting for his equally ungodly, yet anti-abortion, opponent? By voting, am I denying God's omnipotence and thus His absolute capacity to ensure the government that should be in power? Or by not voting am I allowing what God does not want but will permit because, after all, a nation gets the leaders it deserves?

O Lord! Give me the wisdom to choose the correct path!!!

Lord, please forgive me for giving Adrian a headache!! Then lead us all in the right direction through Your wisdom.

Now, here is a simple thought. To get you out of your quandary we must realize that the issue we are dealing with is because of SIN! If the leaders parents and grandparents and ggp's faithfully trained their children in the ways of the Lord we would have no quandary. Our leaders would lead with ethics and good morals. Our choices would be much easier. Instead we are left with voting for, as you and AnyMinute said, the lesser of two evils. I personally believe God blesses our faithfulness. So being faithful to Him will ultimately keep us in His will regardless of who gets elected. A write in for a good ethical and Moral leader may be a wasted vote but IMO it is not wasted in God's eyes.

Maybe this verse will help:




And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. Acts 5:27-29

Praise God

[micah719]

1. Adrian mentioned fear....here is a lengthy but very edifying piece by John Bunyan (yes he of Pilgrim's Progress fame) about The Fear of God, and the counterfeits of it.

http://www.bunyanministries.org/work...ear_of_god.pdf

2. Here is a short article by a former abortionist, and the source website I got it from a couple of days ago.

http://www.vorthosforum.com/export/A...bortionist.pdf

In Production

3. When it comes to the so-called choice called voting, where you get to allay your conscience (or sear it) by electing the lesser of two or three suspicious charlatans, I've opted out of the farce. By the time we peons get to hear of a "candidate", they have done what they had to do to get where they are and have been thoroughly vetted by media and their masters. Count on it, nobody of integrity and genuine principles ever gets within a thousand miles of getting into power these days, and if they get off their leash while in figurehead position, there are many ways of getting them back in line, or cutting them totally loose or even completely ending their existence. There is no meaningful difference anymore between any of the great political parties in any "democracy", the program continues regardless. Splinter groups and mavericks are merely there to spice up the show and make it seem like an honest race. When the waiter of the restaurant "Democracy" comes to me with his gun and his two or three plates of slightly differently flavoured dung and forces me to choose one, I'm not hungry.

[Carl]

1. Adrian mentioned fear....here is a lengthy but very edifying piece by John Bunyan (yes he of Pilgrim's Progress fame) about The Fear of God, and the counterfeits of it.

http://www.bunyanministries.org/work...ear_of_god.pdf

2. Here is a short article by a former abortionist, and the source website I got it from a couple of days ago.

http://www.vorthosforum.com/export/Articles/Reflections of an Ex-Abortionist.pdf

In Production

3. When it comes to the so-called choice called voting, where you get to allay your conscience (or sear it) by electing the lesser of two or three suspicious charlatans, I've opted out of the farce. By the time we peons get to hear of a "candidate", they have done what they had to do to get where they are and have been thoroughly vetted by media and their masters. Count on it, nobody of integrity and genuine principles ever gets within a thousand miles of getting into power these days, and if they get off their leash while in figurehead position, there are many ways of getting them back in line, or cutting them totally loose or even completely ending their existence. There is no meaningful difference anymore between any of the great political parties in any "democracy", the program continues regardless. Splinter groups and mavericks are merely there to spice up the show and make it seem like an honest race. When the waiter of the restaurant "Democracy" comes to me with his gun and his two or three plates of slightly differently flavoured dung and forces me to choose one, I'm not hungry.

Now I'm getting a head ache! Thanks micah