Good books on traditional view of God's will for our lives?

[JoelH]

Hi all,

I understand there are two main views regarding the way to know God's will for our lives:

1. Traditional view: God has a specific will for you to live, and will communicate to you in different ways. God will communicate to you through the Bible, by the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you, peace/unease that ultimately come from the Holy Spirit, signs/circumstances, or someone giving you w word of knowledge. (This could be divided into the traitional view and charismatic view according to James Petty, but they surround on how the manifestations of the Holy Spirit operate i.e. at fundamental level it is different)

2. Wisdom view: this is the view of Christians until the second half of the 19th century. God has all His views declared in the Bible which has been revealed by Jesus in these last days. The will that He has and has already been revealed are: we are to put our trust in Jesus as our Saviour, grow in maturity in Him through a. love God, b. love others but above all other Christians through our thought that will filter down to actions, c. flee immorality. On everything else we are to rely on the wisdom which is gained from reading and understanding the Bible and apply it.

I have Phillip Jensen and Tony Payne's Guidance and the Voice of God. Also I'm going to start reading Garry Friesen's Decision making and the Will of God and Kevin DeYoung's Just Do Something. All three teach the wisdom view of God's will. If my understanding is correct, a majority of you here support the traditional view. I was taught the traditional view soon after I became a Christian but has since abandoned that view in prefernece to the wisdom view, but I want to do a self-study on the theology behind these two views, the Bible teachings, so that I will form a biblical view on this area.

Does anyone know the best books teaching the traditional view? (I wouldn't mind whether it has a Pentecostal or non-charismatic slant) I have heard Peter Masters's Steps for Guidance and Tim LaHaye's Finding The View of God but have been told they don't defend well biblically speaking. I think Henry Blackaby's Experiencing God and Dallas Willard's Hearing God are traditional views as well but they are Emerging so no thanks.

Any help will be much appreciated.

[mattfivefour]

Well, if the so-called "wisdom" view is correct, then many of the world's most famous missionaries and some of the greatest preachers of all time (Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, Moody, etc) would never have had their calls or experienced the things they did that led them to the zeniths of their ministries.) Also Paul would not have a) been saved; b) gone into Macedonia; c) returned to Jerusalem.

There are many fine intellectual arguments made against the traditional view and in favor of the wisdom view. Unfortunately, they just do not hold up either to the Word or the reality of man's experiences of God when governed by that Word. Because we have the Spirit of God living IN us ... to lead us, teach us, strengthen us, empower us, enable us, change us ... we are thereby enabled to hear Him and to be guided by Him. Now, since God Himself has made such great provision for us, would it be wise to ignore that much of it?

BTW, the statement that the "wisdom" view was the Christian view until 150 years or so ago is incorrect. The organized denominational churches with their fixed liturgies may have believed in the wisdom view, but those men and women who were called by God over the two millennia since the founding of the Church did not. For if they did they would never have ventured to go where they did and do the works they did. Thank God that He not only gave us His Word to instruct, correct, reprove, and guide us but that He has given us the Holy Spirit who speaks to us in many ways and allows us to use that same Word in order to for us to ensure that what we hear is indeed Him.

[mikhen7]

Simple but to the point:

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Colossians 3:15 (NKJV)

I try to practice listening to the Lord through the church, circumstance, brothers and sisters in Christ, the Holy Spirit, prayer, Scripture, and the one above, peace. I know the presence and direction of God because of the peace He uses to guard my heart. Literally to umpire my heart. The Bible tells me what I need. Books like "Experiencing God"are just helps and they can be very beneficial but for this topic only God can really lead and show His common and personal will. If there were some formula, for me it would be, faith, obedience, and discernment. If I obey God then I am not asked to do more. Obeying means being faithful by acting responsively and positively to events He places me in. He then glorifies His name.

Praise God!!

[JoelH]

Simple but to the point:

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Colossians 3:15 (NKJV)

I try to practice listening to the Lord through the church, circumstance, brothers and sisters in Christ, the Holy Spirit, prayer, Scripture, and the one above, peace. I know the presence and direction of God because of the peace He uses to guard my heart. Literally to umpire my heart. The Bible tells me what I need. Books like "Experiencing God"are just helps and they can be very beneficial but for this topic only God can really lead and show His common and personal will. If there were some formula, for me it would be, faith, obedience, and discernment. If I obey God then I am not asked to do more. Obeying means being faithful by acting responsively and positively to events He places me in. He then glorifies His name.

Praise God!!

Hi mikhen7,

I'm not certain the peace is a subjective peaceful feeling that you had indicated to in your post. From the context of Colossians 3:15, this is the continuation of the passage that since we are now born again by the blood of Jesus, we are no longer subject from human regulations but under the Law of God (Law of the New Covenant) in Chapter 2.

Chapter 3 verses 1-4 sets that we are to set our hearts on heavenly things because our sins had died along with Christ on the cross, and therefore we are now hidden in Christ. This leads to the application about fleeing immorality and dress with humility and compassion and other fruits of the spirit in verses 5 to 14.

This leads to verse 15, which is what you referred in your post. This fact of salvation should rule our hearts in the peace of Christ, as the church collectively we were called to peace by Christ Himself. i.e. the peace referred to here is an understanding that we are now aliens on earth with heavenly citizenship being born again in Christ. It is an objective conception of peace of being in unity with other brothers and sisters in Christ.

In fact, this way of looking at the passage is reinforced by verses 16 onwards about how we should let the word of Christ i.e. what's revealed in the Bible dwell in us richly and we are to teach and admonish one another with wisdom and we are to sing praises to the Lord. verse 17 simply states we are to do everything in the name of our Lord Jesus.

Hope this helps. As far as I can see the historical-grammatical-literal interpretation would teach what I just explained.

[mikhen7]

Hi mikhen7,

I'm not certain the peace is a subjective peaceful feeling that you had indicated to in your post. From the context of Colossians 3:15, this is the continuation of the passage that since we are now born again by the blood of Jesus, we are no longer subject from human regulations but under the Law of God (Law of the New Covenant) in Chapter 2.

Chapter 3 verses 1-4 sets that we are to set our hearts on heavenly things because our sins had died along with Christ on the cross, and therefore we are now hidden in Christ. This leads to the application about fleeing immorality and dress with humility and compassion and other fruits of the spirit in verses 5 to 14.

This leads to verse 15, which is what you referred in your post. This fact of salvation should rule our hearts in the peace of Christ, as the church collectively we were called to peace by Christ Himself. i.e. the peace referred to here is an understanding that we are now aliens on earth with heavenly citizenship being born again in Christ. It is an objective conception of peace of being in unity with other brothers and sisters in Christ.

In fact, this way of looking at the passage is reinforced by verses 16 onwards about how we should let the word of Christ i.e. what's revealed in the Bible dwell in us richly and we are to teach and admonish one another with wisdom and we are to sing praises to the Lord. verse 17 simply states we are to do everything in the name of our Lord Jesus.

Hope this helps. As far as I can see the historical-grammatical-literal interpretation would teach what I just explained.

I agree with you from a contextual point of view. I also ascribe to the Grammatical Historical view. However, keep in mind we are told to allow or let the peace of God rule in our hearts. This means there is the possibility of not allowing it to umpire or rule. That is where I am coming from. It also follows Paul's words in Philippians 4:6-9 (ESV), do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

So I practice the formula of thinking on the things that are deemed praiseworthy as well. Since becoming a Christian my whole outlook on life, even the way I view others has changed (2 Cor. 5:16). I then practice as best as I can to walk in peace. I can say more later but I have to get to church!!

God Bless

[mattfivefour]

I agree with you from a contextual point of view. I also ascribe to the Grammatical Historical view. However, keep in mind we are told to allow or let the peace of God rule in our hearts. This means there is the possibility of not allowing it to umpire or rule. That is where I am coming from. It also follows Paul's words in Philippians 4:6-9 (ESV), do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

So I practice the formula of thinking on the things that are deemed praiseworthy as well. Since becoming a Christian my whole outlook on life, even the way I view others has changed (2 Cor. 5:16). I then practice as best as I can to walk in peace. I can say more later but I have to get to church!!

God Bless

My thoughts exactly, Mike!

[LivnForChrist]

great answers Adrian & Pastor Mike.

[mikhen7]

My thoughts exactly, Mike!

Adrian I loved what you said as well. You are so correct. This morning I actually brought a message on Acts 20:17FF. Paul's parting words to the Elders (Presbytery) of Ephesus. Note the passage where he speaks of the Holy Spirit testifying of things that await his future (Acts 20:23).

Acts 20:23
²³ πλην οτι το πνευμα το αγιον κατα πολιν διαμαρτυρεται λεγον οτι δεσμα με και θλιψεις μενουσιν - To solemnly affirm from Thayers



Note also Acts 8:29. The fact is He leads us, as you said, and personally it is His witness with my witness I recognize the most.

I know where JoelH comes from. I agree with him but we also must not allow ourselves to be so rigid as to believe there is no witness beyond the revealed Word of God. That is definitely a witness by which all things must be judged.

God bless

[mattfivefour]

The fact that Paul uses διαμαρτύρεταί is interesting. It is the present, indicative, middle, 3rd person, singular of διαμαρτύρομαι. It, therefore, is referring to the Holy Spirit. Διαμαρτύρομαι (diamaturomai) for those who have not studied Greek is pronounced dee-a-ma-TOOR-oh-my and is related to the word "martyr".) It means "to fully give witness to", in other words "to give a full, clear, unmistakable testimony." It is ALWAYS in the Greek "middle" voice ... a voice that is somewhat like our passive voice but includes some aspects of the active voice. This middle voice indicates that something is not only performed ON the subject but is something in which the subject also takes some part. Thus in this verse its is saying that Paul was an active part of this witness, this testimony, by the Holy Spirit. It did not hit him out of the blue, I dare say, but was the result of his prayerful walk with the Lord. That said, it is also interesting to note that this was not some quiet, internal witness of the Holy Spirit within Him, but an external one through prophetic declarations "in every city". We learn of two of the cities and two of these prophetic messages in Acts 21:4 and Acts 21:11.

I find all of this interesting in that, to me, it indicates three things that can help us in our Christian walk: 1) when God speaks internally, He will confirm it through others; 2) when he speaks externally, it will be confirmed internally; and 3) when he calls someone to a difficult task, He not only prepares him (or her) with the required tools but also with the proper mindset.

[BuzzardHut]

Does anyone know the best books teaching the traditional view? (I wouldn't mind whether it has a Pentecostal or non-charismatic slant) I have heard Peter Masters's Steps for Guidance and Tim LaHaye's Finding The View of God but have been told they don't defend well biblically speaking. I think Henry Blackaby's Experiencing God and Dallas Willard's Hearing God are traditional views as well but they are Emerging so no thanks.

Any help will be much appreciated.

God's personal will for your life might be different than for someone else.

Just be sure to stay away from any mystics, so called "early church fathers", or Word of Faith garbage.

[mikhen7]

The fact that Paul uses διαμαρτύρεταί is interesting. It is the present, indicative, middle, 3rd person, singular of διαμαρτύρομαι. It, therefore, is referring to the Holy Spirit. Διαμαρτύρομαι (diamaturomai) for those who have not studied Greek is pronounced dee-a-ma-TOOR-oh-my and is related to the word "martyr".) It means "to fully give witness to", in other words "to give a full, clear, unmistakable testimony." It is ALWAYS in the Greek "middle" voice ... a voice that is somewhat like our passive voice but includes some aspects of the active voice. This middle voice indicates that something is not only performed ON the subject but is something in which the subject also takes some part. Thus in this verse its is saying that Paul was an active part of this witness, this testimony, by the Holy Spirit. It did not hit him out of the blue, I dare say, but was the result of his prayerful walk with the Lord. That said, it is also interesting to note that this was not some quiet, internal witness of the Holy Spirit within Him, but an external one through prophetic declarations "in every city". We learn of two of the cities and two of these prophetic messages in Acts 21:4 and Acts 21:11.

I find all of this interesting in that, to me, it indicates three things that can help us in our Christian walk: 1) when God speaks internally, He will confirm it through others; 2) when he speaks externally, it will be confirmed internally; and 3) when he calls someone to a difficult task, He not only prepares him (or her) with the required tools but also with the proper mindset.

Excellent exposition!!! I actually underlined and placed the word in the margin of my Bible a few years back to remind me of the awesome meaning. 1, 2, 3 just like that!! Love it!!

God Bless!!

[Chris]

Good books on traditional view of God's will for our lives?

Forget the clay man written books.

There's the one and only - The Holy Bible!!

[OnceWasLost]

God's personal will for your life might be different than for someone else.

Just be sure to stay away from any mystics, so called "early church fathers", or Word of Faith garbage.

Excellent!

[JoelH]

Hi guys, thanks for illustrating why the Bible teaches the traditional view. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient time to respond right now during the week, will try to do it over this weekend. :)

Your responses are much appreciated.

[JoelH]

After some more readings over the past fortnight, it's time for me to respond. I want to try avoid being argumentative at all, because the glory of God is more important than your or my or anyone else's pride. May we humbly submit to what God has worked through His Word in us, Amen.

I agree with you from a contextual point of view. I also ascribe to the Grammatical Historical view. However, keep in mind we are told to allow or let the peace of God rule in our hearts. This means there is the possibility of not allowing it to umpire or rule. That is where I am coming from. It also follows Paul's words in Philippians 4:6-9 (ESV), do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

So I practice the formula of thinking on the things that are deemed praiseworthy as well. Since becoming a Christian my whole outlook on life, even the way I view others has changed (2 Cor. 5:16). I then practice as best as I can to walk in peace.

The "peace" in Philippians 4:7 is not the same as the "peace" in Colossians 3:15 in context. Philippians talks about internal peace, an inner assurance gained from faith in God's sufficiency and sovereignty. My description about Colossians use of peace still stands.

An additional issue in judging peace as a "feeling" is it is subjective. The source of anxiety could well be man's conscience stating we have violated God's moral will, but it is also as likely to be insomnia, illnesses, stress, etc. Even traditional views' teachers like Tim LaHaye and Chuck Swindoll (Swindoll in fact teaches a mix of traditional and wisdom views BTW) understand. But it flies in the face of God whom we believe is a God that is knowable objectively and dependable.

Having said this, impressions do matter. But it is the result of we comparing what we learned through the Scriptures and listened to counsels of other Christians (both with the Holy Spirit's assistance) with the decision to make.

The wisdom view has an advantage of more in line with God's immutable, a God that has revealed His will to us, and a God that will not play a maze game on us. But its is also a heavier burden: we can't hide away some stupid decisions on "God told me so..." everyone we must do must be for the glory of God. And more importantly, even the traditional view realizes there are some things which we don't seek God's will/guidance or we will be procastrinate for hours!

Adrian I loved what you said as well. You are so correct. This morning I actually brought a message on Acts 20:17FF. Paul's parting words to the Elders (Presbytery) of Ephesus. Note the passage where he speaks of the Holy Spirit testifying of things that await his future (Acts 20:23).

Acts 20:23
²³ πλην οτι το πνευμα το αγιον κατα πολιν διαμαρτυρεται λεγον οτι δεσμα με και θλιψεις μενουσιν - To solemnly affirm from Thayers



Note also Acts 8:29. The fact is He leads us, as you said, and personally it is His witness with my witness I recognize the most.

I know where JoelH comes from. I agree with him but we also must not allow ourselves to be so rigid as to believe there is no witness beyond the revealed Word of God. That is definitely a witness by which all things must be judged.

God bless

Acts 8:29 is an example of God supernaturally saying to Philip, bear in mind it is in Apostolic times, and yes, we should be careful not to say it has ceased, but we must also be careful not to assume it is still normative all the time for all Christians! Look at Paul's later Epistles like 1 and 2 Timothy or otehr later Epistles that were written shortly before or even after the fall of Jerusalem like 1, 2, 3 John, there are not a lot of talks about God supernaturally guiding through visions and voice and dreams etc.

The same of reasoning could be applied to Acts 20:17. The spirit here is the Holy Spirit, so it is once again God intervening directly revealing what has been done. Once again we should not expect it is normative today fopr the Apostolic times was a special period.

[JoelH]

God's personal will for your life might be different than for someone else.

Just be sure to stay away from any mystics, so called "early church fathers", or Word of Faith garbage.

Funny enough the so-called traditional view often leads to a wider acceptance of the mystical view or the Word of Faith view. We will just meditate on judging what God's signs are that we become "Christian" psychics. Ask John Eldredge about that...

[JoelH]

Forget the clay man written books.

There's the one and only - The Holy Bible!!

The teachers who teach the wisdom view say amen to what you said as well.

Now, if the question boils down to - does the Bible actually teach we will know the will of God externally aside from the Holy Bible through subjective means, or saying we conform to the wisdom as given by the Scriptures and counsel of other Christians...umm... .

[daygo]

does this apply to your gifts as well.

[mattfivefour]

Joel, I am not sure what your entire point is. It seems, though I am sure in your mind it is not, to be to engage in endless disputation. About everything. As I keep reading these threads I keep thinking of Titus 3:9 in which God tells us not to engage in μωρὰς ζητήσεις (moras zeteseis), literally foolish or stupid questionings or searchings. And then in 2 Timothy 2:23 He tells us to "Refuse (παραιτέομαι, paraiteomai) literally "excuse yourself from the presence of") μωρὰς καὶ ἀπαιδεύτους ζητήσεις (moras kai apaideutous zeteseis) literally "foolish and untrained questions or searchings." Then I am reminded, too, of 1 Timothy 6 in which God, in a different context, talks about those who have an unhealthy interest in questions (or searchings) and strivings about words (νοσῶν περὶ ζητήσεις καὶ λογομαχίας). Brother, I cannot judge your heart, but here and on RR I notice over and over that if there is someone striving over words ... and not just in a context but actually beginning threads which almost by their nature invite strife or contention over words, it is often your user name beside the post.

And even on those occasions when you come asking for input, you disagree with the input and instead put forth your own—clearly previously held—view. Questions are good. We are to question by prayerful reading of God's Word everything we are taught. This is something that is rightly between us and the Holy Spirit. It is HE who leads us into His Truth. And we submit questions to those individuals spiritual mentors or spiritual peers whose life and character manifests Christ and whose wisdom and knowledge we trust as a sounding board for that which we believe God has revealed to us from His Word. But when we bring questions to the general assembly (and do so with some apparent agenda) the questioning becomes a different matter and we can wind up in futile arguments, causing confusion among the flock.

With great respect, brother, but equally with great concern, I ask what your purpose is in these disputations?

[mikhen7]

After some more readings over the past fortnight, it's time for me to respond. I want to try avoid being argumentative at all, because the glory of God is more important than your or my or anyone else's pride. May we humbly submit to what God has worked through His Word in us, Amen.



The "peace" in Philippians 4:7 is not the same as the "peace" in Colossians 3:15 in context. Philippians talks about internal peace, an inner assurance gained from faith in God's sufficiency and sovereignty. My description about Colossians use of peace still stands.

Only in your mind does it still stand. εἰρήνη as used is exactly the same in voice, mood, and tense for both passages and means the same - Below are some other places where the exact same word is used.

Here is more info "eirene" "occurs in each of the books of the NT, save 1 John and save in Act 7:26 ['(at) one again'] it is translated "peace" in the RV. It describes
(a) harmonious relationships between men, Mat 10:34; Rom 14:19;
(b) between nations, Luk 14:32; Act 12:20; Rev 6:4;
(c) friendliness, Act 15:33; 1Co 16:11; Heb 11:31;
(d) freedom from molestation, Luk 11:21; Luk 19:42; Act 9:31 (RV, 'peace,' AV, 'rest'); Act 16:36;
(e) order, in the State, Act 24:2 (RV, 'peace,' AV, 'quietness'); in the churches, 1Co 14:33;
(f) the harmonized relationships between God and man, accomplished through the gospel, Act 10:36; Eph 2:17;
(g) the sense of rest and contentment consequent thereon, Mat 10:13; Mar 5:34; Luk 1:79; Luk 2:29; Joh 14:27; Rom 1:7; Rom 3:17; Rom 8:6; in certain passages this idea is not distinguishable from the last, Rom 5:1." *

[* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 154.]

Note there are other voice, moods, and tenses for this word such as eireneuo, eirenopoieo, eirenikos to name a few.

I agree with Matt. Useless wranglings are inexpedient. If that is your intent,to disagree, then do so with God, because I cannot and will not change His Word to mean what I think. I pray you will also seek Him for wisdom.

God's blessings on those who desire it.