Concern about rev.12.

[daygo]

A concern has arrisen within me about rev. 12 and the timing of the battle in heaven, and satan being thrown down to earth. Does anyone have an idea when it is have just read that its about half-way through the trib. if so that means we will see satan in heaven and all his allies when we get raptured, that to me doesn`t seem right and uneasy about it. What do our learned friends know about it?

[LivnForChrist]

I'm not being flippant but if we do see him so what? He won't be able
to harm us.

[mattfivefour]

Here are a couple things to consider as you think on Revelation 12:

Luke 10:17-18 (NKJV) "Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.' And He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'" (Literally, in the original Greek, Jesus says: "I was watching [Imperfect Indicative speaking of a continuous past action] Satan as lightning out of the heaven having fallen [Aorist Participle expressing an action that took place during the action of the main verb ... which here is 'watching'].")

Isaiah 14:12 (NASB) "“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [Hebrew הֵילֵ֣ל (heylel)meaning literally 'Day Star' or 'Morning Star', not the name 'Lucifer" as the KLJV mistranslates it from the Latin Vulgate ... though clearly it refers directly to Satan] son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations!"

So we have Jesus speaking at least half a century before the Revelation saying He saw Satan fall from Heaven in the past. And, 700 years before that, we have Isaiah speaking of Satan already fallen from Heaven. These two things need to be reconciled with Revelation 12:7-9. You also have to take into account that demons are fallen angels and have been on the earth for millenia prior to Revelation and that Revelation 12:13 says specifically. "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child." This latter refers to both Israel and Messiah.

When you consider all of that, including the timings, it might help you answer your question.

[LivnForChrist]

Adrian, I think that his concern is that though Satan doesn't abide in heaven,
that he still have the ability to appear there. He did so when he came among the
angelic host and was asked by the Lord, had he noticed Job. This would have been
pre-Christ's incarnation. I've always thought that he would lose access to heaven
permanently during the tribulation (mid-way) and would then at that point possess
the anti-christ (who is killed by then). Am I wrong?

[mattfivefour]

Well, I guess the question is: Was Satan thrown out of Heaven in ages past? Or is he only going to be thrown out of Heaven in the future? One interpretation of Revelation 12 would indicate the latter. But then you would have to ignore (or explain away) both Isaiah 14 and Luke 10. And since demons are fallen angels, if they do not fall until they side with Satan in a battle in Heaven in the future, who are the demons who have stalked the earth and possessed and oppressed man for millennia?

Trust me, this is a very interesting topic and, I believe, gives good light on the Revelation.

[LivnForChrist]

Yes, I agree. It is an interesting topic. I am a little puzzled now. I guess I'll have to
study it more.

[mattfivefour]

You can PM me, if you like, if you have questions that arise as you study. We will post the results here, but sometimes it is easier when working through a problem to ask questions in PM.

[livin_in_the_Son]

What about simple access to the throne of God? Not actual residence in heaven, but the ability to have an audience with God?

[mattfivefour]

Well if he is restricted to only having an audience with God, then why is there a battle to throw him out of Heaven?

[livin_in_the_Son]

Oops, I meant after the expulsion from heaven.

[mattfivefour]

What about simple access to the throne of God? Not actual residence in heaven, but the ability to have an audience with God?

Oops, I meant after the expulsion from heaven.

Yes, I agree with that. From what I see in Scripture I believe that to be the case. However, we still have the same problem with the timeline. Isaiah says Satan was fallen from Heaven to the earth at some point in the past. Jesus said he saw him with his own eyes fall like lightning out of Heaven. But then Revelation talks about a day when Satan will be thrown down from Heaven to earth. So how do we resolve that?

[livin_in_the_Son]

Yes, I agree with that. From what I see in Scripture I believe that to be the case. However, we still have the same problem with the timeline. Isaiah says Satan was fallen from Heaven to the earth at some point in the past. Jesus said he saw him with his own eyes fall like lightning out of Heaven. But then Revelation talks about a day when Satan will be thrown down from Heaven to earth. So how do we resolve that?

I meant that at the time of Rev. and satan being given the heave-ho is when his access to the throne is no longer allowed? Like after his expulsion from heaven, he was given the ability to "approach the bench" in regards to wage charges against mankind, but after the final throw down, that access is denied? It could easily coincide with the indwelling of the a-c. Since satan can't try to convince God to abandon the worthless humans, he then tries to win the souls of those same humans? I could be really off base.

[Robert]

Well if he is restricted to only having an audience with God, then why is there a battle to throw him out of Heaven?

To see who gets to toss him out of there?

[mattfivefour]

I meant that at the time of Rev. and satan being given the heave-ho is when his access to the throne is no longer allowed? Like after his expulsion from heaven, he was given the ability to "approach the bench" in regards to wage charges against mankind, but after the final throw down, that access is denied? It could easily coincide with the indwelling of the a-c. Since satan can't try to convince God to abandon the worthless humans, he then tries to win the souls of those same humans? I could be really off base.

I suppose. But if he was already thrown out of heaven (even if permitted to return) it had to have been with the 1/3 of all angels who supported him in his rebellion, because they are the demons who are here on this earth now and have been for millennia. Satan's rebellion took place long before there was an Israel. At some point following the seventh day of Creation and before the tempting of Adam and Eve.

So we still have the conundrum— were Satan and the fallen angels thrown out in the past or in the future? I think it a little too much of a stretch to suggest that Satan was thrown out, could return, and then was thrown out again and this time fought with a third of the angels joining his side. We have already seen that the angels who sided with Satan are the demons; and nowhere do we read that the demons enter Heaven, let alone approach God. So if Satan was thrown down in the past, so were they. Yet Rev 12 describes Satan being thrown out and taking a third of the angels with him. So they were still in Heaven? Interesting, eh?

(Incidentally, one small point to bear in mind when thinking about Satan in the end time (or any time, for that matter): he is not omnipresent. Thus he can only be in one place at a time.)

[livin_in_the_Son]

Oohhh...this IS really interesting. I'm gonna have to think, pray, and study on this subject. Up til now I always took that satan was approaching God, not alone but surrounded by his cronies. Bullies usually are more confident when they have a supportive audience. I always took the 'battle' with satan and the angels as a past event, with everything else I mentioned as a future type event. (with the understanding that the battle could also imply the waging of war on the saints AFTER the indwelling). I know that satan can't be in two places at once, so what I meant that after his expulsion this last time would be around the time of the indwelling.

I'll send further comments or questions via PM, and I look forward to reading other comments and conclusions about this...Doesn't everybody just LOVE learning more about scripture? I like to learn, but when it comes to God's Word....it surpasses thrilling!

[Elijah's Mantle]

the war in heaven is about the mystery of God being finished (future)
If I read what I'm a reading right ?
the one in Isaiah makes reference that in times past
that Satan had dominion of the earth before Adam and then when he fell from heaven was when he had decided to rebel and then lead a revolution against God Satan has been trying to have dominion of the earth and us humans ever since , because he had it before Adam didn't he ?

Is that correct ?

[Elijah's Mantle]

Reading Rev when it states the "woe" given is to the earth and sea because the devil ""come down" to them is when satan is cast out of heaven
Is that right ?

[mattfivefour]

I do not believe that to be correct, EM. I would like to see some scripture on that, to see where that notion came from. I believe that Scripture instead clearly says God gave man (represented initially in Adam) dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). Satan took that dominion from Adam when Adam fell. You see, by falling, Adam heeded Satan rather than God. And Romans 6:16 tells us that he to whom you yield, he whom you obey, is your master. Hence Satan, now being Adam's (and all mankind's) master, took dominion. The earth was no longer perfect and pure but defiled and corrupted. Sin had entered in ... just as it had in Satan prior to his tempting Adam and Eve.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Looks like the war in which satan does not prevail in that the Ark Angel Michael starts at the command of God 8 states and "he" prevailed not referencing satan because it says ""neither was their place found anymore in heaven"" ... yep makes sense


""And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness
God was made manifest in the flesh 1 Timothy 3:16

something the ""Mystery of iniquity"" we read about which is was the "anti-Christ spirit

1 John 4

we can see how the scripture says those ""Mysteries" are resolved

""Hereby know ye the spirit of God ""
every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God "
and
Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is Not of God and this is that spirit of antichrist
whereof ye have heard that it should come and even now is already in the world 1 John 4:2-3

[mattfivefour]

Reading Rev when it states the "woe" given is to the earth and sea because the devil ""come down" to them is when satan is cast out of heaven
Is that right ?

Ah, now you are on to something. But be careful not to confuse THAT woe given to the earth with any of the Tribulation woes of the judgments and wraths in Revelation. The woe of Satan's fall to earth was surely manifested in the woes that came upon man when man, through Satan's cunning deceit, subsequently also fell. At that point, as described in Genesis 3, the earth became man's enemy to be tamed, not his friend. He would henceforth struggle to get it to yield food, he would have to work hard, and rather than yielding up all he needed, the earth would have to be tilled and tended. And, by that sin, death entered Creation because God had to kill two animals to make coverings for the man and the woman (that being the first blood sacrifice to cover man's sin.) Further, the woman now would have the woes of childbearing in pain and travail. Those are the woes that occurred as a result of Satan being hurled to the earth where were Adam and Eve.

(So, do you think perhaps we may be getting a clue to the whole interpretation of the Revelation if we consider that perhaps that event, that aspect, described in Revelation occurred back in the Garden?)