Concern about rev.12.

[daygo]

Nice analogy Livnforchrist I like it.

[Everlasting Life]

To me there's a difference between fallen, and thrown down. Would it be possible that these terms describe our enemy has fallen from the position that God had first endowed him with, and then physically thrown down from heaven during the latter part of time?

Yes, when reading those parts of Revelation, I've often felt that the descriptions embodied several time events in regards to Israel, Christ and then the end times. A very short description of a timeline so to speak.

Ok, so here's some observations in regards to Revelation 12

The woman flees to the wilderness for 1260 days, I thought that was mid tribulation. Revelation says this happens after Christ ascended to heaven. Right there is quite a few years difference between Christ's ascention and the tribulation which hasn't started yet

Rev 12 speaks of war in heaven. Also, that war happens after the midpoint of the Tribulation. THEN it says that the great dragon and his angels were cast down, nor was a place found in heaven for them anymore. Later in verse 12 it says, "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!"


So it looks like this may be what Rev 12 is saying in a very brief timeline:

- Israel is formed and pictured here with the 12 tribes VS. 1

-Christ is born (since then many years have passed, 2000+). VS. 5

-The woman flees (mid-tribulation, yet to come) VS. 6

-War breaks out between Michael's angels and the dragon's angels (most likely during the mid point of the tribulation ) VS 7

-THEN....satan and his angels are cast out. VS. 9

-As a result the heavens rejoice and all those who dwell in them. VS. 12

Please feel free to disect and correct.

[Everlasting Life]

Hoping I didn't kill this thread.

[livin_in_the_Son]

Ok, this is what my study produced, starting at Rev. 11:19 as suggested.

The ark symbolizes the complete "eternal" establishment of God's kingdom (v.15) The relationship between God and His servants will be fully realized (21:3)

12:1- the woman is without a doubt the nation of Israel, the crown of 12 stars are the 12 tribes

Rev.12:4 talks about satan waiting for the birth of the promised Messiah, the offspring that Gen3:15 mentions that will "crush your (satan) head, and you will strike His (Jesus) heel". The beginning of this verse is when the mention of his tail sweeping a third of the stars out of the sky, so obviously it's from before satan tempted Eve.

Since satan wanted to "devour her child the moment it was born" (Rev.12:4) is probably a parallel reference to Pharoah who wanted all hebrew born males killed (Ex1:16), and also Herod who wanted to kill Jesus at birth. (Matt 2:6,13,16)

Rev. 12:5 is an explanation of the outcome of satan waiting for the birth, kinda like how a storyteller will break during a particularly tense scene to allay the readers fears.

V.6 is obviously another explanation, but contains information off a future event (the remnant going to Petra)

V.7-9 goes back to the original story of WHY satan tempted Eve, the WHY the whole bible reads like it does, the WHY the end COMPLETES the beginning.

V.13 the devil (from the beginning at the garden) pursues Israel, persecutes her, so that the offspring that crushes his head can't be born.

V.14 "she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert" again could be another parallel, the 1st being the wandering in the desert for 40 years to purge wickedness, and the 2nd again in reference to the remnant during the tribulation period in Petra, to protect against wickedness.

V.15 talks about how satan persued the woman and her offspring back at the flood. Satan knew that the offspring would come from a particular bloodline, but not which one until Noah got on the ark. Satan mistakenly thought that the flood would kill ALL, but when Noah survived, it merely narrowed the possibilities for the bloodline for the Messiah.

V.17 talks about how satan goes after "the rest of her offspring- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" which are the Gentiles.

** one thing that really struck me was how much the beginning of the bible was just like the end. One more way to prove that the whole thing had to come from God, because over the span of thousands of years, there's no way it would come together so perfectly. Just take the Star Wars movies, ch4-7 came out in the 70's and ch.1-3 came out in the later 90's...they are not even remotely in synch. **

[Everlasting Life]

Oohhhh.....Daniel. Love this book.

Hmmmm...put Daniel 12 and Revelation 12 (holy smokes....just realized the same chapter number even) side by side and a more clear picture shows up. Here in Daniel 12 God is addressing issues in regards to Israel and what the end times will look like for Israel....and believers of Christ. The first verse says that Michael will arise...that must be alluding to the battle in heaven? And...if so then when our enemy is cast down to earth then yes, there will be great anguish for Israel and the whole earth.
Ok, here's Daniel 12:

The Time of the End
1 “At that time Michael, the archangel who stands guard over your nation, will arise. Then there will be a time of anguish greater than any since nations first came into existence. But at that time every one of your people whose name is written in the book will be rescued. 2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. 3 Those who are wise will shine as bright as the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever. 4 But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing on opposite banks of the river. 6 One of them asked the man dressed in linen, who was now standing above the river, “How long will it be until these shocking events are over?”

7 The man dressed in linen, who was standing above the river, raised both his hands toward heaven and took a solemn oath by the One who lives forever, saying, “It will go on for a time, times, and half a time. When the shattering of the holy people has finally come to an end, all these things will have happened.”

8 I heard what he said, but I did not understand what he meant. So I asked, “How will all this finally end, my lord?”

9 But he said, “Go now, Daniel, for what I have said is kept secret and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined by these trials. But the wicked will continue in their wickedness, and none of them will understand. Only those who are wise will know what it means.

11 “From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days. 12 And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days!

13 “As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you.”

[mattfivefour]

Ok, this is what my study produced, starting at Rev. 11:19 as suggested.

The ark symbolizes the complete "eternal" establishment of God's kingdom (v.15) The relationship between God and His servants will be fully realized (21:3)

12:1- the woman is without a doubt the nation of Israel, the crown of 12 stars are the 12 tribes

Rev.12:4 talks about satan waiting for the birth of the promised Messiah, the offspring that Gen3:15 mentions that will "crush your (satan) head, and you will strike His (Jesus) heel". The beginning of this verse is when the mention of his tail sweeping a third of the stars out of the sky, so obviously it's from before satan tempted Eve.

Since satan wanted to "devour her child the moment it was born" (Rev.12:4) is probably a parallel reference to Pharoah who wanted all hebrew born males killed (Ex1:16), and also Herod who wanted to kill Jesus at birth. (Matt 2:6,13,16)

Rev. 12:5 is an explanation of the outcome of satan waiting for the birth, kinda like how a storyteller will break during a particularly tense scene to allay the readers fears.

V.6 is obviously another explanation, but contains information off a future event (the remnant going to Petra)

V.7-9 goes back to the original story of WHY satan tempted Eve, the WHY the whole bible reads like it does, the WHY the end COMPLETES the beginning.

V.13 the devil (from the beginning at the garden) pursues Israel, persecutes her, so that the offspring that crushes his head can't be born.

V.14 "she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert" again could be another parallel, the 1st being the wandering in the desert for 40 years to purge wickedness, and the 2nd again in reference to the remnant during the tribulation period in Petra, to protect against wickedness.

V.15 talks about how satan persued the woman and her offspring back at the flood. Satan knew that the offspring would come from a particular bloodline, but not which one until Noah got on the ark. Satan mistakenly thought that the flood would kill ALL, but when Noah survived, it merely narrowed the possibilities for the bloodline for the Messiah.

V.17 talks about how satan goes after "the rest of her offspring- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" which are the Gentiles.

** one thing that really struck me was how much the beginning of the bible was just like the end. One more way to prove that the whole thing had to come from God, because over the span of thousands of years, there's no way it would come together so perfectly. Just take the Star Wars movies, ch4-7 came out in the 70's and ch.1-3 came out in the later 90's...they are not even remotely in synch. **

Livin', I do not believe a single ONE of us has the whole of Revelation correct. However, I believe you have hit very, very close to the mark on this.

The way I have come to see this passage from Revelation 11:19 to 12:17 is very much as you now do. It is so important to recognize the parenthetical insertions that take us back to the beginning and Satan's original fall and then how that fits into the entire scheme of things and why the end completes the beginning! This you have done. Good job!

It is all pretty much summed up in what you have written: "V.7-9 goes back to the original story of WHY satan tempted Eve, the WHY the whole bible reads like it does, the WHY the end COMPLETES the beginning." Excellent!

One thing-- I might suggest is that the appearance of the Ark in 11:19 is important because it is the revelation that there is an Ark eternally existent and present in Heaven, thus symbolizing that God has had man's redemption in view since before the beginning of Creation. Hallelujah!

Isn't it awesome to see God's hand in the entire sweep of Creation from the "In the beginning God" of Genesis 1:1 to the "Amen" of Revelation 22:21!!!

You have done excellent work in pursuing this with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And what a faith-building, awe-inspiring result it produces in us to see, so magnificently presented, the overarching plan of God throughout the ages! I am shouting here in sheer adoration of Him who sits above the Heavens and in sheer exultation of His love for us!!!

Adrian

[livin_in_the_Son]

Mattfivefour, I will say that this little adventure was so thrilling for me, better than any suspense movie or novel. I have never felt such an awakening like this. In all, I spent more time in prayer, and rumination over this, but it seemed like once it clicked, I couldn't turn the pages fast enough. I'm ready for my next adventure...

[IamPJ]

I love it when ya'll dig so deep into the Scriptures!!! I learn so much! Thank ya'll!!

[daygo]

Thanks for explanation mattfivefour.

[Elijah's Mantle]

one thing that really struck me was how much the beginning of the bible was just like the end. One more way to prove that the whole thing had to come from God, because over the span of thousands of years, there's no way it would come together so perfectly. Just take the Star Wars movies, ch4-7 came out in the 70's and ch.1-3 came out in the later 90's...they are not even remotely in synch. **

amazing what has been brought forward in this thread
certainly is a great study

Matt
awesome way to explain it

[Elijah's Mantle]

Isn't it awesome to see God's hand in the entire sweep of Creation from the "In the beginning God" of Genesis 1:1 to the "Amen" of Revelation 22:21!!!

It was the most amazing study to read one I most likely will go on studying for a long while
Its good