Shroud of Turin

[SteveJM]

I find this interesting.


Shroud of Turin Is Real, Scientists Claim, Citing New Evidence
Tue, Dec. 20, 2011 Posted: 11:46 AM EDT
One of the most famous Christian relics – the Shroud of Turin, which is said to be the burial robe of Jesus Christ – may very well be authentic in nature, according to a team of Italian scientists.

The ancient 14-foot long piece of cloth is said to hold remarkable imprints of a crucified man with long hair and a bearded face. Critics insist the shroud in question is a forgery created in the Middle Ages, somewhere between 1260 and 1390. Radiocarbon tests conducted in 1988 in Arizona, Oxford and Zurich seemed to prove that theory to be true, but were disputed due to claims that fibers from the cloth were used around that time period simply to repair the shroud, which would explain the skewed findings, The Telegraph reported.

Attempts in the past had been made to replicate the relic in order to prove that it is a fake, and although scientists from Italy's National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development managed to create such a duplicate, they concluded that it would be impossible for anyone to have done the same with technology available in the Middle Ages:

"The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin, has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining ... is impossible to obtain in a laboratory," the experts said.

The leader of the project, Prof Paolo Di Lazzaro, explained that their research was based purely on the scientific evidence at hand and left theological interpretations up to the "conscience of individuals."

Between 1978 and 1981, a group of 31 American scientists, called the Shroud of Turin Research Project, conducted 120 hours of X-ray and ultraviolet tests that arrived to the same conclusion.

"There are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately," they said, according to the Telegraph.

A professor of chemistry at Pavia University, Luigi Garlaschelli, shared with The Independent: "The implications are... that the image was formed by a burst of UV energy so intense it could only have been supernatural. But I don't think they've done anything of the sort."....


Stoyan Zaimov

What do you think? If the shroud is authentic, it should not be worshipped or set up as an idol but I'm still fascinated by it. Is this the face of Christ? One day we'll know.

[livin_in_the_Son]

In a college comp class, the teacher assigned this topic as a subject for a paper on conspiracy theory to another student. (I got the Lindbergh kidnapping). I believe that they came down on the side of it being a fake. I have no evidence one way or the other, but I'm inclined to agree with him. I don't presume to know the mind of God, but since He commanded to not worship idols, why leave one? Could it be the image of a crucified man? Possibly. Do I believe that it is Christ's image? Not so much.

[JC1949]

we know that Jesus died,was buried and rose again according to the Holy Scriptures.....
Who needs a piece of cloth to validate THE TRUTH?
I do not...and i am convinced that any born again ( born from above) believer in Jesus would agree with that...

Jesus reveals Himself to the lost sinner that asks....and saves him/her.
we do not need pieces of the cross,nails or shourds of sort...HE IS RISEN! and HE IS COMING BACK:) Praise The Lord! AMEN

[SteveJM]

we know that Jesus died,was buried and rose again according to the Holy Scriptures.....
Who needs a piece of cloth to validate THE TRUTH?
I do not...and i am convinced that any born again ( born from above) believer in Jesus would agree with that...

Jesus reveals Himself to the lost sinner that asks....and saves him/her.
we do not need pieces of the cross,nails or shourds of sort...HE IS RISEN! and HE IS COMING BACK:) Praise The Lord! AMEN

I agree wholeheartedly.

[SteveJM]

The physical body of Christ is a shell, such as ours. It's what's inside that matters most. I try to think of that when I see someone. I try to look beyond the physical. I've seen and see Jesus Christ. I saw him for the first time in an experientially way, when at the age of seventeen, I knelt by a chair in my bedroom and asked him to come into my heart. I'm not saying that I had any type of vision, but that I knew Him for the first time as my savior.

[Meg]

I have followed the developments on that shroud for -- goodness, I guess its been at least 20 or 25 years by now. I believe its a fake because the Vatican has consistently refused even the tiniest sample to be released to scientifically validate it. The Catholics are really big on those relic things, and that shroud is one of their most "credible" prizes. But knowing what I do about the first 4 or 5 centuries of Christianity, my firm opinion is that is not the burial cloth in which they wrapped our Lord.

[Hannah]

All they can do is try to prove the age of the cloth.

The image on the cloth cannot be confirmed as Jesus Christ. Whose image is on this cloth?

MT 28:5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."



The women at the tomb of Jesus were told He is not here but risen.

The women were not encouraged to remain looking at the tomb but reminded "he has Risen" and then told to "go quickly and tell his disciples" NOT hang around staring at the empty Tomb Or to set up a shrine to Jesus there and worship.

These people who are fixated on this Shroud have missed the message that was give to the women at the tomb, they are too busy staring at the Shroud they have not realised that the Shroud like the Tomb is empty and Jesus is not there!

[readytogo]

All they can do is try to prove the age of the cloth.

The image on the cloth cannot be confirmed as Jesus Christ. Whose image is on this cloth?

MT 28:5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."



The women at the tomb of Jesus were told He is not here but risen.

The women were not encouraged to remain looking at the tomb but reminded "he has Risen" and then told to "go quickly and tell his disciples" NOT hang around staring at the empty Tomb Or to set up a shrine to Jesus there and worship.

These people who are fixated on this Shroud have missed the message that was give to the women at the tomb, they are too busy staring at the Shroud they have not realised that the Shroud like the Tomb is empty and Jesus is not there!

Amen!

[SteveJM]

Well, I seem to be the odd man out on this subject. Although I'm fascinated by the possibility that this may be genuine, I've only invested about two hours of my life reading about. Why such little time? Because I agree with most of the points that everyone here has made. For me, it's a fascination but not an obsession. It's apparent that I'm not alone in regard to wanting to know about it, as Meg has been following it for "at least 20 or 25 years by now." I can't make any hard conclusions about whether or not this is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ. I've never seen Jesus in person and I don't know anyone who has other than those who were physically with him. As far as the Catholics not giving it over to independent scientists, I understand there could be a few reasons why they would be very guarded about it. One is that it's not real, another is that they believe it is, and don't want it damaged or destroyed. An object of worship? I suppose it could be for some, but for others it's an interesting object. I'm still interested and will probably invest another hour or two, looking into the latest news about it, and I make no apology for it, and yes, I know no one asked for one. I think, if anything, this brief discussion about the shroud has been fruitful, for we are all in agreement that we serve a living Christ, and any object from the past is not necessary for us to believe, know and serve Him.

[Meg]

I just did some research to see what the latest reliable science is on the shroud. Here are two interesting articles I found.

From 2009:
Scientist reproduces Turin shroud

BBC NEWS | Europe | Scientist reproduces Turin shroud

The Shroud of Turin has been reproduced by an Italian scientist in another attempt to prove that the cloth bearing an image of Christ's face is a fake.
A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia said he had used materials and techniques that were available in the Middle Ages.
These included applying pigment to cloth and then heating it in an oven.

From 2010:

Unshrouding the science of the Shroud
Page last updated at 10:09 GMT, Monday, 12 April 2010 11:09 UK

BBC News - Turin Shroud: What does the science say?

The centre plans to produce "an accurate map of the cloth" to discern whether it was made from the same cloth or contains repairs. Once that has been completed the carbon dating will be repeated, he says.

Its been over a year and a half, and there are no reports of new carbon dating tests. It doesn't take that long to run a carbon date test...

[SteveJM]

Thanks for the articles, Meg. What do any of you believe motivates the Roman Catholic Church to hold on to and acquire relics? Beyond the historical value, could part of it be to keep status and or legitimacy in the world? After all if you hold these "treasured" relics, then to many, you would seem to be very genuine and authoritative. If that's a part of it, it would be understandable, since the true Church(the body of born again in Christ) doesn't have any such need for relics, as we have the word of God, and the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and that is enough.

[Meg]

Steve, I found an excellent answer to your question at Wikipedia. I had thought relic collecting was rooted in the Middle Ages, but in fact the practice comes at least from ancient Greece. There are a lot of pagan holdovers in Europe in general and Italy in particular. The Catholic church never repents of a bad idea, they are collecting relics of their appointed "saints" to this day, so the shroud is but one among many relics... My favorite comic relief example is the 3 heads of John The Baptist in France alone... Go figure!

[SteveJM]

My favorite comic relief example is the 3 heads of John The Baptist in France alone... Go figure!

[Meg]

Sorry, I was distracted when I posted that reply. Here's the link etc

Relic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Relics in classical antiquity

In ancient Greece, a city or sanctuary might claim to possess, without necessarily displaying, the remains of a venerated hero as a part of hero cult. Other venerable objects associated with the hero were more likely to be on display in sanctuaries, such as spears, shields, or other weaponry; chariots, ships or figureheads; furniture such as chairs or tripods; and clothing. The sanctuary of the Leucippides at Sparta claimed to display the egg of Leda.[1]
In contrast to the relics of Christian saints, the bones were not regarded as holding a particular power derived from the hero, with some exceptions, such as the divine shoulder of Pelops held at Olympia. Miracles and healing were not attributed to them;[2] rather, their presence protected the city, as the tomb of Oedipus was said to protect Athens.[3]
The bones of Orestes and Theseus were supposed to have been stolen or removed from their original resting place and reburied.[4] On the advice of the Delphic Oracle, the Spartans searched for the bones of Orestes and brought them home, without which they had been told they could not expect victory in their war against the neighboring Tegeans.[5] Plutarch says that the Athenians were likewise instructed by the oracle to locate and steal the relics of Theseus from the Dolopians:

Christianity

The Second Council of Nicaea in 787 decreed that every altar should contain a relic, making it clear that this was already the norm, as it remains to the present day in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
Many tales of miracles and other marvels were attributed to relics beginning in the early centuries of the church; many of these became especially popular during the Middle Ages. These tales are collected in books of hagiography such as the Golden Legend or the works of Caesar of Heisterbach. These miracle tales made relics much sought after during the Middle Ages. By the late Middle Ages the collecting of, and dealing in, relics had reached enormous proportions, and had spread from the church to royalty, and then to the nobility and merchant classes. In the absence of real ways of assessing authenticity, relic-collectors became prey to the unscrupulous, and some extremely high prices were paid.

[Glory to God]

John 20:6-7 NKJV

6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.


This shows that Jesus was not wrapped in one piece of linen cloth.

[JC1949]

John 20:6-7 NKJV

6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.


This shows that Jesus was not wrapped in one piece of linen cloth.

Great stuff bro'......
and really,WHO NEEDS this cloth thing?
I know that JESUS IS MY LORD AND SAVIOUR as I am sure you do too and we do not need chunks of the cross,neither rusted nails or burial clothes.....the burial cloth we leave it gladly to the dead fake in name only "christians???"....
HE IS RISEN and we will raise too because of that,HE IS ALIVE and we are alive too thanks be to HIM..and HIS WONDERFUL GRACE!:)

[Meg]

John 20:6-7 NKJV

6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.


This shows that Jesus was not wrapped in one piece of linen cloth.

Great point, Glory To God!!! Since His face was wrapped in a separate cloth, the shroud couldn't have picked up the image of His face.

[maryrae]

I'm still thinking it's a fake because 1..the seperate pieces of cloth for head & body 2. also wasn't it the custom in Bible times to wrap the deceased in strips of cloth rather than one whole sheet type of shroud? 3. the Bible does say in Isaiah 52:14 that "his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness"