Is belief a choice?

[rstrats]

The problem is that a person can't simply consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

[soundingthealarm]

Romans 10:14

But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

[mikhen7]

The problem is that a person can't simply consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

If you are going to make this statement you must clarify it. Because theologically, that could mean something you may not have intended to say.

We respond to God after He is revealed to us and our sin becomes known (via the Holy Spirit) for what it does, separates from God. We then realize we need Him because there is no other way to be reconciled to God. At that time we can freely choose for Him or against Him. John 6:44 is a good place to look.

God Bless

[rstrats]

mikhen7,

re: “ If you are going to make this statement you must clarify it.”

OK - A person does not have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true.


re: “We respond to God after He is revealed to us...”

So where does the conscious CHOICE to believe that a supreme being exists come in if that belief is placed in (revealed to) an individual by that supreme being?

[Robert]

People cannot DECIDE to believe in Christ; they must make a choice.

There is a difference...


A DECISION is made in one's mind; it is an assent to fact that are learned about a thing, a person or anything that exists.

A CHOICE, on the other hand, is made in the heart.

We can learn all the FACTS about someone, but that does not mean we love them. it is only when we know that person in our HEARTS that we are able to love them. With God, he reveals himself to us in our hearts, and we then respond in faith. Faith is trusting that his promises are true and that what he has said, he will do; because he reveals himself to us, he gives us the faith to believe because we then know Him and we KNOW he is true to his word.

Now, when God reveals himself to a person, they have a choice: to see him with their heart, or to turn away in cold, callous unbelief. Most will do the latter, and it breaks God's heart when they do. But he will not force himself on another: love requires that He risk the rejection and hurt, even if by rejecting him, that person will go to hell.

Hopefully, I have explained it appropriately.

[rstrats]

Robert,

re: “Now, when God reveals himself to a person, they have a choice: to see him with their heart, or to turn away in cold, callous unbelief.”

Once the supreme being reveals himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in him - the person already does. The only conscious CHOICE available is whether or not to take any actions that the person thinks the belief requires.

[Robert]

Robert,

re: “Now, when God reveals himself to a person, they have a choice: to see him with their heart, or to turn away in cold, callous unbelief.”

Once the supreme being reveals himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in him - the person already does. The only conscious CHOICE available is whether or not to take any actions that the person thinks the belief requires.

The person can choose to trust the Lord that He is who he says he is and will do what he says he will do, or can reject him and go their own way. Just because I tell you I'm an artist doesn't necessarily mean you will believe me; does that mean if i show myself to you and tell you i am an artist you have no choice but to believe?

[mikhen7]

Once the supreme being reveals himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in him - the person already does.

That is what I thought you were saying. correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that God only reveals himself after we believe. That is not true.

Rom. 10:13-15,

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

[vs. 14 is taken in context with vs. 13. --> In order to call upon Him you must first believe upon Him, which required hearing of Him]

And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

[You must Hear of Him before you can believe in Him]

And how shall they hear without a preacher?

[The Word must be proclaimed as a form of General Revelation before they can make a decision]

And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

[We must support the work of God in sending out messengesr of the gospel]

Our salvation is still God's work. He is generally revealed to us through His invisible and visible attributes as revealed in creation and through the spoken, visual, or written word. Through any of or all of those things we fall under conviction of the Father through the Spirit to make a choice to believe or disbelieve.

He initiates the work and we respond to it for salvation.

Pure Calvinism may teach what you are saying but I cannot buy that. God is not willing that any should perish. I hope I explained that correctly.

God bless

[rstrats]

mikhen7,

re: “correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that God only reveals himself after we believe.”


OK, consider yourself corrected because that is not what I mean.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you mean by “when God reveals himself to a person...” I took "reveal” to mean that the existence of the supreme being is made known to the person.

[micah719]

Romans 1:20-21
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

The awesome grace and love and patience of The Lord are shown by how He perseveres and goes to great lengths indeed to come after the rebellious in order to save them. At some point, however, He accepts the rejection, like Pharaoh's, and the vessel fit only for destruction is a tool to help save others.

[mikhen7]

mikhen7,

re: “correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that God only reveals himself after we believe.”


OK, consider yourself corrected because that is not what I mean.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you mean by “when God reveals himself to a person...” I took "reveal” to mean that the existence of the supreme being is made known to the person.

Here is what you told Robert.

re: “Now, when God reveals himself to a person, they have a choice: to see him with their heart, or to turn away in cold, callous unbelief.”

Once the supreme being reveals himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in him - the person already does. The only conscious CHOICE available is whether or not to take any actions that the person thinks the belief requires.

Where I am stumbling is in your statement "Once the Supreme Being reveals Himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in Him - the person already does." To me what you are saying is we have no choice to decide to believe or not to believe. I agree with your second statement in part because we do have to take action. We must choose to believe what is revealed and then once we repent and believe we become saved.

As I said earlier, the Lord makes Himself known to us through what is Generally revealed via creation etc.. but not exclusive to that. We must also hear His word to know about our sinful condition. That is NOT God revealing to us the verb "belief or faith--"pistus" in greek is the word that means both. If both conditions are met we then can either consciously choose to believe in God or to reject Him. Never is a person automated into the family of God. He may give us the ability to repent and respond via the power of the Holy Spirit but He will never force Himself on us. It could be said that faith, belief, and repentance are gifts but only in the sense that we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to act upon them. In other words the Lord knocks and we open the door.

If we hear the word multiple times in our life and continue to consciously reject it then the conviction of the Holy Spirit will be lifted as He "gives us up to do those things which are unfitting" Romans 1:28.

If you see things differently then carefully explain them

God Bless

[mikhen7]

Romans 1:20-21
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

The awesome grace and love and patience of The Lord are shown by how He perseveres and goes to great lengths indeed to come after the rebellious in order to save them. At some point, however, He accepts the rejection, like Pharaoh's, and the vessel fit only for destruction is a tool to help save others.

100% true.

[rstrats]

mikhen7,

re: “Where I am stumbling is in your statement ‘Once the Supreme Being reveals Himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in Him - the person already does.’"


If by “reveal” you mean “to make known” then the person doesn’t have a CHOICE; the “making known” instantly causes a belief to be engendered in the person’s mind.



re: “To me what you are saying is we have no choice to decide to believe or not to believe.”


If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I believe that ‘x’ doesn’t exist or isn’t true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[soundingthealarm]

I understand what you are saying, however God has chosen one of the ways to reveal The Truth of Himself is through the "foolishness of preaching"

and once God reveals Himself, a person still has to re-act

"even demons believe"

Pharoh Hardened his heart, He chose to reject The God of Moses

when Peter Preached and the people cried out..."what must we do?"

[mikhen7]

mikhen7,

re: “Where I am stumbling is in your statement ‘Once the Supreme Being reveals Himself to a person it is too late to CHOOSE to believe in Him - the person already does.’"


If by “reveal” you mean “to make known” then the person doesn’t have a CHOICE; the “making known” instantly causes a belief to be engendered in the person’s mind.



re: “To me what you are saying is we have no choice to decide to believe or not to believe.”


If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I believe that ‘x’ doesn’t exist or isn’t true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

As i read the Word of God, or as soundingthealarm said, hear the word preached, I am presented daily with choices to be obedient. The moment I read or hear I have to make a choice. It is not automatic. That is why the Scripture teaches we have the ability to quench the Holy Spirit. It is also why the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is who will guide us into all truth. Nothing is ever automatic, we must daily choose to server or disobey. Read the book of John and pray for God to give you wisdom. Let Him speak to your heart.

[rstrats]

mikhen7,

re: “As i read the Word of God, or as soundingthealarm said, hear the word preached, I am presented daily with choices to be obedient.”


Agreed. You read or hear about the seventh day Sabbath commandment and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to it or not. You read or hear about the commandment to only eat clean animals and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to it or not. You read or hear about the commandments to observe the annual feasts and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to them or not. But when it comes to engendering beliefs, you can’t just simply consciously CHOOSE to have them. However, if you think that you can do that, I would ask you to demonstrate your ability by doing as I suggested in my post #14.

[mikhen7]

mikhen7,

re: “As i read the Word of God, or as soundingthealarm said, hear the word preached, I am presented daily with choices to be obedient.”


Agreed. You read or hear about the seventh day Sabbath commandment and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to it or not. You read or hear about the commandment to only eat clean animals and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to it or not. You read or hear about the commandments to observe the annual feasts and you can CHOOSE to be obedient to them or not. But when it comes to engendering beliefs, you can’t just simply consciously CHOOSE to have them. However, if you think that you can do that, I would ask you to demonstrate your ability by doing as I suggested in my post #14.

Please do not twist my words. I agree with choice after belief as I stated but I had to hear the word of God and learn about God before I could make a decision to trust in Him the first time. I had to be under conviction to know I was a sinner then I had to respond. Belief was not automatic. It was a clear choice to say I trust you as my Savior. I could have just as easily said no to him as multitudes do. The only place inducement comes in is after we believe not before. Even then we can refuse Him. I emphatically do not already believe or have faith in Him once He reveals Himself to me. We must still make a conscious choice to say yes to Him for salvation. So we still disagree. But hopefully you will see that and ask God to help you to believe it. I will pray for you.

[mattfivefour]

Rstrats, I see you are back again, still arguing over obscure points and words. This time it is over whether a person can choose to believe or whether he (or she) has no choice. The Word of God makes it clear people DO have a choice. They can accept God, or reject Him. The first chapter of John's gospel lays this out. If people have no choice once God reveals Himself, then the gospels make no sense. The many words the apostles spend on man choosing are a waste. And God is a fool for talking some much about choice.

You are running into trouble with your doctrine again because, respectfully, there is a flaw in the premise from which your logic flows. You derive your particular point of doctrine from your statement "the 'making known' instantly causes a belief to be engendered in the person’s mind." Not at all. I knew of Jesus Christ for years. Even believed He really lived. But I did not believe Him. Or in Him. Romans 1 tells us that God has revealed His existence in nature, but man chooses to worship the Creation rather than the Creator. Romans 1:20 tells us that no man has any excuse not to believe. Yet many do. In fact Jesus tells us that most will not believe.

Since the OP, this entire thread has been hijacked by your foolish argument over choice and belief. And I term it foolish because it is; from its basis on a faulty premise to its bad fruit—the engendering of a fruitless argument. What you have succeeded in doing is taking a thread that was begun for the purpose of witnessing to the lost, hopefully winning some to Christ, and turned it into an example of why many whom God is calling are repelled by the actions of those who name His name. Shame on you!

If your intention here is to continue to carp over words and present bankrupt ideas in the furtherance of argument, as you have in the previous three threads in which you have "contributed", may I suggest you might want to remove yourself from this forum. There is no room in this fellowship for that kind of division. God's Word is clear on what OUR action should be: Romans 16:17 And believe me, for the love of the brethren and the pursuit of peace I am quite willing to separate you from this family of believers if you have no desire to fellowship in worship and edification.

Please desist from this path you are on. Use the gifts God has given you and work to build up the body, not divide it. We accepted you in love and will continue to do so ... only please walk in a manner that edifies your brothers and sisters in love.

[rstrats]

mikhen7,

re: “Please do not twist my words.”

Where have I twisted your words? Please be specific.


re: “ I emphatically do not already believe or have faith in Him once He reveals Himself to me.”

If by “reveal” you mean “to make known”, then you don’t have a CHOICE; the “making known” instantly causes a belief to be engendered in your mind. You simply can’t know that you know the truth about something and at the same time not believe it.

[mattfivefour]

re: “ I emphatically do not already believe or have faith in Him once He reveals Himself to me.”

If by “reveal” you mean “to make known”, then you don’t have a CHOICE; the “making known” instantly causes a belief to be engendered in your mind. You simply can’t know that you know the truth about something and at the same time not believe it.

With respect, this is absolute nonsense! If it were true, then the God who revealed Himself to Israel, the Christ who revealed Himself to the Jews, the God who revealed Himself through the apostles would have never found unbelief. for, by your reasoning, having now revealed Himself they would have no choice but to believe. Clearly they didn't. In fact, Jesus said there are FEW that find the way. The condemnation, God said, is that light came into the world (ie: God revealing Himself) but the world refused to accept Him.

You continue to try and argue an unscriptural point and in so doing continue to derail this thread that was created to try to win souls to Christ.