Jonah: God's Will, But Up to You

[Robert]

Yeah, the title sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?


But it is true: God's will is up to us.


Now, before you get the wrong idea, I do NOT mean that without us, God's will cannot or will not be done; NOR am I saying that WE decide God's will (please put down the pitchforks!!! ). What I am saying is that it is up to each of us whether or not we will be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit and follow the Lord's perfect will.

Jonah is a prime example of how NOT to do God's will:

"The word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” (Jonah 1:1-2, NASB)

God gave Jonah a mission: to preach to the Assyrians at Nineveh. God intended Jonah to deliver his message to the Ninevites, that he was going to wipe their city off the map.

So what does Jonah do?

"But Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. So he went down to Joppa, found a ship which was going to Tarshish, paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. " (Jonah 1:3, NASB)

Yup, good ol' Jonah gets in gear all right, and charges into action: AWAY from the assignment God gave him in the other direction!!!! In fact, Jonah heads for Tarshish, which was amongst the furthest places known at that time.

Talk about dedication!

Now, most of you know the story of Jonah: runs away, takes a boat to Tarshish; God sends a storm while they are partway. Jonah gets tossed overboard, fish swallows him, spits him up on dry land. And God once again tells him to go to Nineveh to preach, where he does so and they repent:

"Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. He issued a proclamation and it said, “In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. “But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. “Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish. When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. ” (Jonah 3:5-10, NASB)

Pretty cut and dried, right?


Not quite.


There are times when god puts something on our hearts that he desires us to do, but for whatever reason, we are not so "hot" to do it. We find out specifically in Jonah's case why he felt like this:

"But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the LORD and said, “Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life" (Jonah 4:1-3, NASB, emphasis mine)


Jonah didn't WANT them to repent!!!


Jonah didn't do God's will because he didn't want the Ninevites to repent, but be destroyed instead. In Jonah's mind, he had relegated them to less than human beings (which the Ninevites were reputed to do to their enemies in battle and to their captives afterwards), and knew in his heart that God wanted to have mercy on them.

Now, we can say that Jonah repented of his sin and that he asked God for another chance, but as we can see in his words, that isn't the case:

"Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the stomach of the fish, and he said, “I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice. “For You had cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the current engulfed me. All Your breakers and billows passed over me. “So I said, ‘I have been expelled from Your sight. Nevertheless I will look again toward Your holy temple.’ “Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, Weeds were wrapped around my head. “I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God. “While I was fainting away, I remembered the LORD, And my prayer came to You, Into Your holy temple. “Those who regard vain idols Forsake their faithfulness, But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from the LORD.” Then the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah up onto the dry land." (Jonah, chapter 2, NASB)

After reading this, we see that Jonah wasn't sorry about what he did; he was scared of where he was and was screaming for God to help him!!! Jonah still held to his vehement disdain for the Ninevites, as evidenced in Chapter 4. God gave him another opportunity, but for his OWN reasons...

He needed to teach Jonah something:


"The LORD said, “Do you have good reason to be angry?”

Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city. So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant." (Jonah 4:4-6, NASB)

As part of God's plan, he made a plant grow over Jonah's head and it shaded him from the sun. Jonah was very happy about this event, as the sun in the Middle east can be brutal.

But God wasn't done yet:

"But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered. 8When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah’s head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, “Death is better to me than life.” (Jonah 4:7, NASB)

All it took to ruin Jonah's day was for God to take away his plant, and turn the heat up a little.

And as we can see from Jonah's reply, he was NOT happy about this turn of events. But as Jonah was fuming about his now crispy eggplant, God revealed the crux of the lesson to him:

"Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” Then the LORD said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight."“Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” " (Jonah 4:9-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Jonah had pity on a poor plant that he didn't do SQUAT for, but died. yet he was willing to let 120,000 people die? Keep in mind: the saying "did not know their left hand from their right hand" referred to children (Nineveh was a BIG city: 120,000 would have been a drop in the bucket!!!). And God exposed this in Jonah when he provided, then took away the plant.

And then we hear no more from Jonah. In fact, the next time we hear of Jonah directly is when Jesus refers to him being in the fish for 3 days and nights. Jesus mentions about Nineveh as well, but he never mentions Jonah in conjunction with it. He isn't even listed in the 'heroes of Faith" in Hebrews 11.


Whether God ever used Jonah again is not mentioned in scripture.


Because God has given man free will, God will not force anyone to do his will that does not wish to do so: this is the reason he does not force people to repent or accept salvation against their will. God's will is not circumvented by our refusal to do it, nor is it destroyed by our unwillingness to obey. But God is NOT obligated to use us in his will: if we refuse and do not repent of our stubbornness, he is more than capable of raising up others to do his will in our place. And in this dispensation, the Age of Grace, while God will forgive us and cleanse us of our sins when we come to him in repentant faith, stubborn refusal to obey his will leaves God with no choice but to remove us from the immediate plan and move another who will do his will into place. It is up to us, like it was up to the two sons in the following passage:

"“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” ( Matthew 21:28-31a, NASB)

In this passage, we see that one of the sons at first refuses to go, but changes his mind. The second one says he will do his father's will, but then fails to do so.

Yes; he knows ahead of time that we will refuse, just as he knew that Israel would refuse Jesus as the Messiah. Nevertheless, he offered the gift to them all the same, just as he offered us, and as he seeks to use us in his will.


God will not force us to obey him...



But if we do not, we will end up wishing that we had.



I bid you all peace.


YBIC,


-Robert

[soundingthealarm]

To Obey is better than sacrifice

I've struggled like Jonah many times......and each time I found myself in a pit

thanks for sharing this Robert

[JC1949]

Yeah, the title sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?


But it is true: God's will is up to us.


Now, before you get the wrong idea, I do NOT mean that without us, God's will cannot or will not be done; NOR am I saying that WE decide God's will (please put down the pitchforks!!! ). What I am saying is that it is up to each of us whether or not we will be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit and follow the Lord's perfect will.

Jonah is a prime example of how NOT to do God's will:

"The word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” (Jonah 1:1-2, NASB)

God gave Jonah a mission: to preach to the Assyrians at Nineveh. God intended Jonah to deliver his message to the Ninevites, that he was going to wipe their city off the map.

So what does Jonah do?

"But Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. So he went down to Joppa, found a ship which was going to Tarshish, paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. " (Jonah 1:3, NASB)

Yup, good ol' Jonah gets in gear all right, and charges into action: AWAY from the assignment God gave him in the other direction!!!! In fact, Jonah heads for Tarshish, which was amongst the furthest places known at that time.

Talk about dedication!

Now, most of you know the story of Jonah: runs away, takes a boat to Tarshish; God sends a storm while they are partway. Jonah gets tossed overboard, fish swallows him, spits him up on dry land. And God once again tells him to go to Nineveh to preach, where he does so and they repent:

"Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. He issued a proclamation and it said, “In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. “But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. “Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish. When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. ” (Jonah 3:5-10, NASB)

Pretty cut and dried, right?


Not quite.


There are times when god puts something on our hearts that he desires us to do, but for whatever reason, we are not so "hot" to do it. We find out specifically in Jonah's case why he felt like this:

"But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the LORD and said, “Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life" (Jonah 4:1-3, NASB, emphasis mine)


Jonah didn't WANT them to repent!!!


Jonah didn't do God's will because he didn't want the Ninevites to repent, but be destroyed instead. In Jonah's mind, he had relegated them to less than human beings (which the Ninevites were reputed to do to their enemies in battle and to their captives afterwards), and knew in his heart that God wanted to have mercy on them.

Now, we can say that Jonah repented of his sin and that he asked God for another chance, but as we can see in his words, that isn't the case:

"Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the stomach of the fish, and he said, “I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice. “For You had cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the current engulfed me. All Your breakers and billows passed over me. “So I said, ‘I have been expelled from Your sight. Nevertheless I will look again toward Your holy temple.’ “Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, Weeds were wrapped around my head. “I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God. “While I was fainting away, I remembered the LORD, And my prayer came to You, Into Your holy temple. “Those who regard vain idols Forsake their faithfulness, But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from the LORD.” Then the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah up onto the dry land." (Jonah, chapter 2, NASB)

After reading this, we see that Jonah wasn't sorry about what he did; he was scared of where he was and was screaming for God to help him!!! Jonah still held to his vehement disdain for the Ninevites, as evidences in Chapter 4. God gave him another opportunity, but or his OWN reasons...

He needed to teach Jonah something:


"The LORD said, “Do you have good reason to be angry?”

Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city. So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant." (Jonah 4:4-6, NASB)

As part of God's plan, he made a plant grow over Jonah's head and it shaded him from the sun. Jonah was very happy about this event, as the sun in the Middle east can be brutal.

But God wasn't done yet:

"But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered. 8When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah’s head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, “Death is better to me than life.” (Jonah 4:7, NASB)

All it took to ruin Jonah's day was for God to rake away his plant, and turn the heat up a little.

And as we can see from Jonah's reply, he was NOT happy about this turn of events. But as Jonah was fuming about his now crispy eggplant, God revealed the crux of the lesson to him:

"Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” Then the LORD said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight."“Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” " (Jonah 4:9-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Jonah had pity on a poor plant that he didn't do SQUAT for, but died. yet he was willing to let 120,000 people die? Keep in mind: the saying "did not know their left hand from their right hand" referred to children (Nineveh was a BIG city: 120,000 would have been a drop in the bucket!!!). And God exposed this in Jonah when he provided, then took away the plant.

And then we hear no more from Jonah. In fact, the next time we hear of Jonah directly is when Jesus refers to him being in the fish for 3 days and nights. Jesus mentions about Nineveh as well, but he never mentions Jonah in conjunction with it. He isn't even listed in the 'heroes of Faith" in Hebrews 11.


Whether God ever used Jonah again is not mentioned in scripture.


Because God has given man free will, God will not force anyone to do his will that does not wish to do so: this is the reason he does not force people to repent or accept salvation against their will. God's will is not circumvented by our refusal to do it, nor is it destroyed by our unwillingness to obey. But God is NOT obligated to use us in his will: if we refuse and do not repent of our stubbornness, he is more than capable of raising up others to do his will in our place. And in this dispensation, the Age of Grace, while God will forgive us and cleanse us of our sins when we come to him in repentant faith, stubborn refusal to obey his will leaves God with no choice but to remove us from the immediate plan and move another who will do his will into place. It is up to us, like it was up to the two sons in the following passage:

"“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” ( Matthew 21:28-31a, NASB)

In this passage, we see that one of the sons at first refuses to go, but changes his mind. The second one says he will do his father's will, but then fails to do so.

Yes; he knows ahead of time that we will refuse, just as he knew that Israel would refuse Jesus as the Messiah. Nevertheless, he offered the gift to them all the same, just as he offered us, and as he seeks to use us in his will.


God will not force us to obey him...



But if we do not, we will end up wishing that we had.



I bid you all peace.


YBIC,


-Robert

Rob,,,thank you....way too good and spot on....it really pierced me now...I am going to have some good time with ABBA and rededicate my life to HIM,thanks BROTHER!GOD BLESS YOU!

[mattfivefour]

Well done, bro. Thought provoking. And a good use of scripture. What you have written causes us to examine ourselves. A good pastoral article.

[Meg]

Indeed, excellent article, Robert. I noticed this passage, because a lot of local church people think its perfectly OK to tell the Lord no, go find someone else...

Because God has given man free will, God will not force anyone to do his will that does not wish to do so: this is the reason he does not force people to repent or accept salvation against their will. God's will is not circumvented by our refusal to do it, nor is it destroyed by our unwillingness to obey. But God is NOT obligated to use us in his will: if we refuse and do not repent of our stubbornness, he is more than capable of raising up others to do his will in our place. And in this dispensation, the Age of Grace, while God will forgive us and cleanse us of our sins when we come to him in repentant faith, stubborn refusal to obey his will leaves God with no choice but to remove us from the immediate plan and move another who will do his will into place.

Of course He can just go find someone else, but if He asks anyone to do anything, first He has a good reason to ask you, and second, we have no business wasting His time making Him go find someone willing.

[Robert]

Indeed, excellent article, Robert. I noticed this passage, because a lot of local church people think its perfectly OK to tell the Lord no, go find someone else...



Of course He can just go find someone else, but if He asks anyone to do anything, first He has a good reason to ask you, and second, we have no business wasting His time making Him go find someone willing.

You are absolutely correct Meg. And that is one of the points of this whole article. Yes, God can go ask someone to do his will in your place; but do we REALLY want him to have to do so? We need to be sensitive to his will, with a willing heart to do it. We saw what happened to Jonah when he refused, and although Jonah ended up doing the Lord's will, Jonah is remembered for his callousness towards the Ninevites. His story is recorded for all the generations up to us to read as a warning.

As for "wasting God's time": even though God isn't affected by time like we are, I know what you mean. That is why I quoted the passage about the two sons whose father asks them to go work in the vineyard. We should be receptive to God's will to the point that he doesn't have to ask us a second time.

All in all, this piece is not permission to tell God to "go find someone else" but a warning against doing so. When we do so, we miss out on serving him and being blessed in doing so. And if we are cold in serving the Lord, what kind of servants are we? What does that say about our relationship with the Lord?

[Robert]

:

[Meg]

I wrote this last year and posted it somewhere else. Maybe it still matters...

The Gate Called Beautiful


It seems to me there is a gate on the American church called Beautiful. Its a gate gilded with money and success. It is all too easy to hide behind that gate and pretend that nothing on the outside of that gate matters. It seems to me that everything outside the gate called Beautiful is either too dangerous or too unattractive to look at closely. Or maybe its just too expensive; after all, these days time is money.

I knew a woman in 2006 whose daughter died of a drug overdose right here in the Bible Belt. That young woman was just outside the gate called Beautiful! Right outside!!! Her mother knew it, but there was nothing she could do to stop it, because she too was trapped outside the gate called Beautiful. My best friend died outside the gate called Beautiful. He never knew he had a choice. He thought God was a slot machine, nothing but random chance, and he got dealt the losing hand, he really thought that, and that horrifically mistaken impression killed him -- slowly. I had the front row seat in that horror movie. That was one of the wounds I never thought could heal... It literally took an act of God to heal that one.

It seems to me that the church has decided that unless someone is getting paid to do something that nothing is going to get done. Since money is so important, they spend quite a bit of it to build impressive sanctuaries that attract money to pay the staff to "do something", then they build a gate called "Beautiful" to keep the ugliness tightly shut out. Its safe in there, and it is beautiful; the money insists on that, because everybody knows that poverty kills, so therefore the lie becomes true, and the prosperity gospel becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with a great deal of credibility.

Doesn't the dying matter??? I see it every day, the people who live behind the gate called Beautiful singing "Blessed To Be A Blessing" while they turn their backs on everything they don't want to see. And its so convenient how everyone they don't want to see find somewhere else to die. Cemeteries are very quiet places by nature, where death is hidden under the soil easily forgotten. The wealthy are so easy to look at that it is equally easy to turn away from anything that doesn't fit inside the gate called "Beautiful". They justify themselves with ministries to the homeless, who they cannot ignore, but its the people trapped behind the gate called "Almost" who are doing the real dying. They are the people who are easily ignored. They are the people who are pointedly ignored. They would rather work than steal, they work cheap and are easily replaced, and easily exploited as well. They neither cost much money nor cause much trouble, so the existence of the working underclass is both useful and easily taken for granted.

Turning your back is effortless. Nothing could be more visibly important than success, so it makes perfect sense to pour all their time and energy into creating more success. Nothing could be easier than failure, all they have to do is stop trying, and since anything easy is cheap, and anything cheap is plentiful, hell is filling up fast, and anyone who doesn't measure up is expendable. Right outside the gate called Beautiful…

Sat Mar 06, 2010

[king'sbloomingrose]

I too am guilty of turning away when I see those that are downtrodden and oppressed. I see them each time I go to the grocery store, I see them waiting for the bus. Their faces are like spectors that constantly haunt me. The hopelessness inside them is unbearable; it comes out in their eyes. And who is telling them about a Saviour who loves and died for them? I don't know what to say. How could I even approach these people? Meanwhile, the millions that live in the modern-day Ninevah are headed for destruction and who's there to tell them? God still asks each and every single one of us today the penetrating question:

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me." Isaiah 6:8

[Robert]

I wrote this last year and posted it somewhere else. Maybe it still matters...

The Gate Called Beautiful


It seems to me there is a gate on the American church called Beautiful. Its a gate gilded with money and success. It is all too easy to hide behind that gate and pretend that nothing on the outside of that gate matters. It seems to me that everything outside the gate called Beautiful is either too dangerous or too unattractive to look at closely. Or maybe its just too expensive; after all, these days time is money.

I knew a woman in 2006 whose daughter died of a drug overdose right here in the Bible Belt. That young woman was just outside the gate called Beautiful! Right outside!!! Her mother knew it, but there was nothing she could do to stop it, because she too was trapped outside the gate called Beautiful. My best friend died outside the gate called Beautiful. He never knew he had a choice. He thought God was a slot machine, nothing but random chance, and he got dealt the losing hand, he really thought that, and that horrifically mistaken impression killed him -- slowly. I had the front row seat in that horror movie. That was one of the wounds I never thought could heal... It literally took an act of God to heal that one.

It seems to me that the church has decided that unless someone is getting paid to do something that nothing is going to get done. Since money is so important, they spend quite a bit of it to build impressive sanctuaries that attract money to pay the staff to "do something", then they build a gate called "Beautiful" to keep the ugliness tightly shut out. Its safe in there, and it is beautiful; the money insists on that, because everybody knows that poverty kills, so therefore the lie becomes true, and the prosperity gospel becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with a great deal of credibility.

Doesn't the dying matter??? I see it every day, the people who live behind the gate called Beautiful singing "Blessed To Be A Blessing" while they turn their backs on everything they don't want to see. And its so convenient how everyone they don't want to see find somewhere else to die. Cemeteries are very quiet places by nature, where death is hidden under the soil easily forgotten. The wealthy are so easy to look at that it is equally easy to turn away from anything that doesn't fit inside the gate called "Beautiful". They justify themselves with ministries to the homeless, who they cannot ignore, but its the people trapped behind the gate called "Almost" who are doing the real dying. They are the people who are easily ignored. They are the people who are pointedly ignored. They would rather work than steal, they work cheap and are easily replaced, and easily exploited as well. They neither cost much money nor cause much trouble, so the existence of the working underclass is both useful and easily taken for granted.

Turning your back is effortless. Nothing could be more visibly important than success, so it makes perfect sense to pour all their time and energy into creating more success. Nothing could be easier than failure, all they have to do is stop trying, and since anything easy is cheap, and anything cheap is plentiful, hell is filling up fast, and anyone who doesn't measure up is expendable. Right outside the gate called Beautiful…

Sat Mar 06, 2010

AMEN!!!

Indeed, it is all too easy to turn our backs on those in need; many of my articles that I posted here spoke of that, and often from painful first-hand experience. It is said that in many "churches", Jesus Christ Himself would not be allowed in because He might get His blood on the carpets.




Really makes you wonder if He will "find faith on the Earth when he comes" (Luke 18:8, NASB) ....

[Meg]

Its not enough to just tell people about the Lord, they've heard all that. People need real solutions to real problems, like when Robert needed a ride to say goodbye to his dying Mother and I was too far away... We can make a big difference in someone's life with just a little effort if we will take the time to listen and respond.

From Let Us Be by Vineyard Music "If You Say Go" CD

Take our hands
Move our feet
Break our hearts
With the things that make Your heart break
With the things that make Your heart break

Let us be Your hands
Let us be Your feet
Let us be the love
That longs for those in need

[myinnuendo999]

I agree to a degree dear brother as I understand what you're saying

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

In my life, I've experienced making my own choices and decisions against God's will. Yet when GOD allows you to come to a rock and a hard place, you realise that there IS no choice but to submit to Him and capitulate to His will. It's because HE is final authority and final say. He is our loving heavenly Father and just like our earthly Fathers who disciplined us best they knew how,, there are some things YOU WILL DO whether you liked it or not because our Father would make sure we knew who is boss and he knew what was best

And I understand what you're saying in that if we are not willing to do His will in certain areas in our lives, he will grant that to us and we loose those blessings. But not everything is treated to us like a gift or blessing. Some things God gives us that are against our will is His discipline and rebuke which we have no control over....

Take us getting cancer or having a wreck or loosing a child, we have absolutely no control over our will being done as God's WILL is being accomplished in our lives. It's how we respond to HIM.

So, all I'm saying is, God is in complete control and HE will finish what HE began In us whether we are aware of the fine details and orchestration or not.

[Eco]

Absolutely Robert,

There is one other thing that I didn't see in your post here, so I'm going to try to bring it up by asking you this question:
How does God, who is unchanging, using Jonah anyway line up with what you first said in your post?

[Meg]

Is this the point you are addressing, Eco? It is an excellent question.

Now, before you get the wrong idea, I do NOT mean that without us, God's will cannot or will not be done; NOR am I saying that WE decide God's will (please put down the pitchforks!!! ). What I am saying is that it is up to each of us whether or not we will be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit and follow the Lord's perfect will.

Jonah is a prime example of how NOT to do God's will

First, lets take a look at how Jonah ended up in the water with the whale and why, because this says a lot about Jonah's heart:

Jonah 1:7-13

7 Then the sailors said to each other, “Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity.” They cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah. 8 So they asked him, “Tell us, who is responsible for making all this trouble for us? What kind of work do you do? Where do you come from? What is your country? From what people are you?”

9 He answered, “I am a Hebrew and I worship the LORD, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land.”

10 This terrified them and they asked, “What have you done?” (They knew he was running away from the LORD, because he had already told them so.)

11 The sea was getting rougher and rougher. So they asked him, “What should we do to you to make the sea calm down for us?”

12 “Pick me up and throw me into the sea,” he replied, “and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you.”

13 Instead, the men did their best to row back to land. But they could not, for the sea grew even wilder than before. 14 Then they cried out to the LORD, “Please, LORD, do not let us die for taking this man’s life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, LORD, have done as you pleased.” 15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. 16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD, and they offered a sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him.

Matthew 21:28-31

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

So we are looking at a very reluctant servant of the Lord, but under pressure, Jonah crucified his own desires and spared the lives of the innocent ship's crew, well aware that he would end up in the water one way or the other, but Jonah was not of so wicked a heart that he would make everyone else die with him. God seems to have been aware that there was a limit to Jonah's generosity, so God remained true to His own character:

Hebrews 12:5-7

5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

Proverbs 13:24

24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

So it seems to me that God was disciplining Jonah, not forcing him. Jonah could have tried his luck escaping on dry land, for one thing. He still seemed to have had real trouble accepting the redemption of Ninevah, that really made no sense to Jonah. Thats as much as I understand. Robert is still praying about this question and needs more time to answer for himself. I checked with him before I weighed in, and feel he will build on what I came up with.

[Eco]

That is a very good point sister. Not quite what I'm trying to get at though.

To ask the question in another way; a quick read through the text indicates God was intent on using Jonah, even though Jonah chose to disobey. It seems God was going to get Jonah where He wanted him, one way or another. How does that line up with our free will?

[Meg]

That is a very good point sister. Not quite what I'm trying to get at though.

To ask the question in another way; a quick read through the text indicates God was intent on using Jonah, even though Jonah chose to disobey. It seems God was going to get Jonah where He wanted him, one way or another. How does that line up with our free will?

For one thing, Jonah could have fought from dry land. Eco, we choose to obey or not to. As in the parable of the two sons, one said no at first, then changed his mind.

Its like this, of I may, a true story of two horses. First of all, a horse is bigger, stronger and faster than a human. A horse doesn't have to do anything he seriously doesn't want to do. The first horse, Joe, seriously didn't like men. He had been seriously injured by a man on his back, and from that day for the rest of his life, Joe didn't like any man riding him. His owner waited until Joe was quite old, and had been treated kindly for well over a decade after the incident, then a young man we knew asked to ride Joe in a jumping class. Joe jumped the first 2 jumps OK, but by the third one decided he still didn't want a man on his back even a kind man. First he refused the jump, then when ridden into the same jump, Joe made it a point to land squarely on top of the jump, thus making his point without hurting himself or his rider. That was the last time a man rode Joe.

The second horse, RT, was also entered in a jumping class on another occasion. This time, RT was the only horse in his barn doing a show, and this show was far from home. RT was in his prime, well trained and in a bad mood. He had no interest in jumping that day, and he clearly argued with his mistress over every single jump, but he did jump every fence cleanly. It was a very impressive ride.

So Jonah was rather like RT. He freely did what he was asked, although he really didn't want to, and he made that point clear. But he did do, reluctantly yet freely, what God had asked. So, I hope you're beginning to understand that free will doesn't always mean you're happy about what you're permitting yourself to be pushed into. Like RT, you might be willing, but not very willing... I hope this helps some.

[myinnuendo999]

Dear meg sis, you are very astute and I enjoy reading your writings. You seem like a writer or something..

Thanks for how much you truly bless me and this forum as you bring God glory through your fingertips

[mattfivefour]

That is a very good point sister. Not quite what I'm trying to get at though.

To ask the question in another way; a quick read through the text indicates God was intent on using Jonah, even though Jonah chose to disobey. It seems God was going to get Jonah where He wanted him, one way or another. How does that line up with our free will?

Jonah still had his free will. Just as does every person. When we are in rebellion against God, He puts us into situations where we are forced to either turn TO Him or turn FROM Him. We either soften our hearts towards Him or we harden them against Him. In Jonah's case, even though Jonah was wrapped up in his own flesh and thought his ideas of justice greater than God's (which is why he disobeyed in the first place), when clearly faced with God's displeasure as revealed through the circumstance that he obviously recognized as God's hand, he repented and obeyed God rather than his own desire. He could have as easily refused and perished in his own disobedience. Just like anyone who has ever lived. WE have the choice. We are saved by choice, we are condemned by choice. And what we do has no component of the imposition of God's will. He makes it clear to us and we either accept it or reject it ... work with it or fight against it. The thing is, though, that God is perfect and omniscient ... and therefore KNOWS those who WILL obey and those who will not. To suggest the existence of that knowledge results in the loss of man's will is to engage in a post hoc propter hoc fallacy. My knowing that if my grandson eats a whole half gallon of Rocky Road will result in him either having a stomach ache or throwing up is not the cause of either of those results. It is the result of my experience and knowledge of the human body and its inability to match the capacity of a youngster's eyes. God's knowledge of us is far greater than we can ever imagine. He does not force us ... but He does warn us. And HE works with however we CHOOSE.

I hope this helps.

[myinnuendo999]

mattfivefour,,Respectfully brother, I have to agree with Eco's pertinent question. God does what all pleases Him -(Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.),,

which means His will overrules our free will cause HE is final authority and in complete control --not us and that means we don't have free will actually. If we did then God would not be God because he would be saying to every one of us --wait I'm sorry I can't intervene and overrule your "free will" which would be ludicrous and then who is boss who is final authority, who is in complete control---we are if that's the case...

I recon a question to be asked and ponder would be, when we get to heaven will we have free will or will our will's all be God's will?

but,, that's a different subject and I don't want to be disrespectful to the subject matter Robert has so critically broken down to us


And, when it comes to God knows---that word is being used equivocally and needs to be defined according to context. We cannot impose that the definition of that word always means =God knows as he knows ahead of time but His knowing also means intimacy

Examples-- Adam knew Eve-Genesis 4:1,-Exodus 2:25 God knew their condition. Not just that he knew about them it’s not cognitive knowledge but it’s relational knowledge. “The Lord knows the way of the righteous”—the Lord cares, he’s watching over and caring about the righteous. Jeremiah 1:5 I knew you ,,, those whom he foreknew –those whom he loved in advance whom he had chosen. God is not just knowing in advance but he KNOWS us in an intimate relationship with him because HE is in complete control not us and he is the Good Shepherd leading us cause God does what all pleases HIM

[mattfivefour]

Sorry, sis. With love, I totally disagree with your conclusion. It is the same error that, respectfully, was John Calvin's. There is nothing in God being God that takes away the free will that HE gave us. Our free will is an act of His sovereign will. To not have given us free will would make us no more than robots. It would be like a husband looking for a bride who had no choice but to obey his will ... not because she wanted to but because he allowed her no other choice. I am sorry to disagree, but that is not the God of the Bible. God wants us to want Him out of our own hearts ... or not at all. He wants none of us to be lost, but knows that by giving us free will some (the Bible says "many") of us will be lost. Yet, in the beauty of His holiness, by giving us the freedom to choose Him or reject Him He has demonstrated true love. And in all of this—indeed, evidenced by all of this—He remains sovereign and His great acts bespeak His transcendent majesty! \o/

Respectfully it is a limited human perspective, the product of man's own thinking, that imagines that God could not remain God and still give man free will. The Bible shows us different.