Jonah: God's Will, But Up to You

**king'sbloomingrose** · May-21st-2011, 06:21 PM

This may help explain the problem of free will versus God's will. This is how my dad explained it to me when I was confused about the same problem several months ago.

He said that a father can call his child to come outside to him. The child can refuse to obey and stay inside instead. That child is following his own free will. But then what if the father engineered circumstances to get the child to obey? What if the house was on fire and the dad then called the child to come outside again? The child comes outside to his father this time. Was it of the child's free will? Yes. And he also chose to obey his father. That's like what God did to Jonah. He sent a storm and a fish that "sent Jonah outside" to Ninevah. But it was Jonah who chose to follow God even if he was grumbling the whole way. Hope that helps!

**myinnuendo999** · May-21st-2011, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by king'sbloomingrose

This may help explain the problem of free will versus God's will. This is how my dad explained it to me when I was confused about the same problem several months ago.

He said that a father can call his child to come outside to him. The child can refuse to obey and stay inside instead. That child is following his own free will. But then what if the father engineered circumstances to get the child to obey? What if the house was on fire and the dad then called the child to come outside again? The child comes outside to his father this time. Was it of the child's free will? Yes. And he also chose to obey his father. That's like what God did to Jonah. He sent a storm and a fish that "sent Jonah outside" to Ninevah. But it was Jonah who chose to follow God even if he was grumbling the whole way. Hope that helps!

I Like that analogy sister thank you so much cause it does help me

and this will be left in God's loving hands as we may not always see eye to eye but we do have Jesus in our hearts and we are brothers and sisters in Christ which to me is infinitely more important.

I love all of you in Christ and I do know that much for sure if nothing else

**Hannah** · May-22nd-2011, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by mattfivefour

Sorry, sis. With love, I totally disagree with your conclusion. It is the same error that, respectfully, was John Calvin's. There is nothing in God being God that takes away the free will that HE gave us. Our free will is an act of His sovereign will. To not have given us free will would make us no more than robots. It would be like a husband looking for a bride who had no choice but to obey his will ... not because she wanted to but because he allowed her no other choice. I am sorry to disagree, but that is not the God of the Bible. God wants us to want Him out of our own hearts ... or not at all. He wants none of us to be lost, but knows that by giving us free will some (the Bible says "many") of us will be lost. Yet, in the beauty of His holiness, by giving us the freedom to choose Him or reject Him He has demonstrated true love. And in all of this—indeed, evidenced by all of this—He remains sovereign and His great acts bespeak His transcendent majesty! \o/

Respectfully it is a limited human perspective, the product of man's own thinking, that imagines that God could not remain God and still give man free will. The Bible shows us different.

I agree Matt. God can do anything He wants to do and He can force His Will on us if He wanted to do so BUT in His love and grace God gives us CHOICE.

From the God Himself He said to Israel as they were about to Enter the Promised Land and Moses gave them God's commandments the following which clearly proves God does allow us to CHOOSE.

DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God beseeches them to CHOOSE Life because they will receive the Blessings and Not the Curses. Then we have many centuries of evidence where we see God allowing Israel and Judah to do what they pleased UNTIL he could stand it no more and then God excuted what he had the right to do and that was judge them and punish them.

God did not force Israel to OBEY Him. He stood back and watched them and warned them time and again and God also disciplined them hoping they would turn around and do the right thing. We do not see God taking over and forcing Israel to become Righteous. Israel ended up being scattered and Judah went into slavery AFTER God watied patiently for many years. They were allowed to make CHOICEs to Disobey God.

Of course some of the Jews were faithful through this time, individiuals like Daniel and King David. They choose to OBEY and were blessed.

Praise God we can choose and we have free will.

**Eco** · May-22nd-2011, 12:49 AM

I really don't want this to turn in to an arguement or a debate, and I'm starting to see that turn up a little bit so I'm going to re-refine the question a little more, in hopes of steering toward what I'm looking to see. Keep in mind though, that Matt is right. God does not overrule our free will because he wants to see something done.

So, God is sovereign, and nothing man does thwarts his plans. How do the two co-mingle together? (And they very much do)

**Hannah** · May-22nd-2011, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Eco

I really don't want this to turn in to an arguement or a debate, and I'm starting to see that turn up a little bit so I'm going to re-refine the question a little more, in hopes of steering toward what I'm looking to see. Keep in mind though, that Matt is right. God does not overrule our free will because he wants to see something done.

So, God is sovereign, and nothing man does thwarts his plans. How do the two co-mingle together? (And they very much do)

The Bible is full of examples. Robert used the situation with Jonah.

I personally have come to see the Sovereignty of God and Free Will of mankind more clearly as I did a re-study of Israel going into the Promised Land (couple of years ago) and reading through all the books in the Old Testament that deal with that period of Israel's (& Judah's)History.

PS 78:40 How often they rebelled against him in the desert and grieved him in the wasteland!

PS 78:41 Again and again they put God to the test; they vexed the Holy One of Israel.

PS 78:42 They did not remember his power-- the day he redeemed them from the oppressor,

PS 78:43 the day he displayed his miraculous signs in Egypt, his wonders in the region of Zoan.

JER 7:12 " `Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your fathers. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.'

JER 11:6 The LORD said to me, "Proclaim all these words in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem: `Listen to the terms of this covenant and follow them. 7 From the time I brought your forefathers up from Egypt until today, I warned them again and again, saying, "Obey me." 8 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.'"

What I see is a God who could do anything HOLDING back and watching and waiting patiently. The Lord took steps to Warn them to Discipline them. God did try some time to gently persuade and other times God was pretty rough with Israel and Judah. However God continued to give them Choice.

I don't know if that helps you reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free Will.

REV 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Even in this verse I see God's invitation to come to Him there is no following threat that if you don't I will make you in verse 20. No we see a picture of God or Jesus standing at our door knocking and waiting for us to answer it and let Him in. God doesn't Break Down our door and let's Himself in.

I hope I've explained it in a way that makes some sense.

**Robert** · May-22nd-2011, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Eco

I really don't want this to turn in to an arguement or a debate, and I'm starting to see that turn up a little bit so I'm going to re-refine the question a little more, in hopes of steering toward what I'm looking to see. Keep in mind though, that Matt is right. God does not overrule our free will because he wants to see something done.

So, God is sovereign, and nothing man does thwarts his plans. How do the two co-mingle together? (And they very much do)

Sorry for not replying sooner; I got tied up in some important stuff.

This is the old question of whether God's foreknowledge taints man's free will. So, let me use an example, however imperfect:

If I foreknow what flavor of ice cream my dad likes, yet pick up a half-gallon of each and let him choose, does my foreknowledge taint his free will. No, of course not; he is free to choose what he likes. Now, knowing that, I also choose to buy chocolate sprinkles specifically because they go with his ice cream, this does not rob him of free will. Now, if he chooses vanilla, though I intended chocolate for him, I can still give him those sprinkles on his ice cream because they also go very well with that flavor. :D

God's plans do not rest and depend solely upon human beings; yet His plans involve us because He desires to use us. Whether or not we wish to participate is up to us; God will not deprive us of free will. But the problem with Jonah was NOT that he didn't want to serve God; rather, he passed judgment on the Ninevites and was bitter that they repented, as we see later on in the book of Jonah. Jonah's problem was not serving the Lord; rather, it was doing what the Lord instructed him to do that he had a problem with. Jonah was a prophet; prophets represented the Lord directly in matters;. For Jonah to do this would cast a significant pall upon the Lord's reputation for mercy.

Jonah didn't want Nineveh to repent; rather, he would rather see them judged. And God had different ideas.

This wasn't about God imposing his will on man's free will, but on us thinking we know how to serve the Lord rather than simply following what we are told to do by him. Some want to do it their own way; some don't want to be bothered at all when called. And while the Lord respects free will, when we do choose to serve him, God calls the shots. He lets us use what He gives us, but at His command.

God made His point when he said this:

"Then God said to Jonah, “Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “I have good reason to be angry, even to death.” Then the LORD said, “You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. “Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?” " (Jonah 4:9-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Jonah was more concerned for his own comfort than the eternal fates of well over 1 million people. To Jonah, because he was directly affected by that one plant that died, he cared. But as soon as it because a mass of people that he despised for being Assyrians, they didn't matter, though the Lord pointed out that over 100,000 were children who didn't even know their right hand from their left.

**Eco** · May-22nd-2011, 10:34 AM

**Meg** · May-22nd-2011, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Hannah

The Bible is full of examples. Robert used the situation with Jonah.

I personally have come to see the Sovereignty of God and Free Will of mankind more clearly as I did a re-study of Israel going into the Promised Land (couple of years ago) and reading through all the books in the Old Testament that deal with that period of Israel's (& Judah's)History.

What I see is a God who could do anything HOLDING back and watching and waiting patiently. The Lord took steps to Warn them to Discipline them. God did try some time to gently persuade and other times God was pretty rough with Israel and Judah. However God continued to give them Choice.

I don't know if that helps you reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free Will.

Even in this verse I see God's invitation to come to Him there is no following threat that if you don't I will make you in verse 20. No we see a picture of God or Jesus standing at our door knocking and waiting for us to answer it and let Him in. God doesn't Break Down our door and let's Himself in.

I hope I've explained it in a way that makes some sense.

Excellent points Hannah!