Armed and Dangerous

[Price is paid]

A church I used to attend is obtaining gun license and and guns for certain members to carry while in church. What are your thoughts on this as we as Christians are to welcome persecution?

Lam 5:5 Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest.

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Act 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

[mikalikat]

I see absolutely no problem with carrying when you attend church. An armed society is a safe society.

[MikeD]

I can obviously see where some would have problems with this. Yet, in this day and age, I really see no problem with it. I know what I'd do if someone would to come in to harm folks, especially with my family sitting there.

[LivnForChrist]

You don't say why they're getting the gun permits. Is it because of real
persecution or just garden variety violence? See I think the problem is not having
a good understanding of what persecution is. Persecution
for Christ sake is different from plain suffering. You can suffer some things that
have nothing to do with persecution. For example, you're coming out of church
with your family and some crackhead robs you at gunpoint and ends up shooting
you. Have you been persecuted? No. Have you suffered? Sure. I see nothing
wrong with protecting yourself.

[GlennO]

Personally I’m very comfortable with protecting my natural family, (my wife sons and daughter and grandkids as well as my eternal family (brothers and sisters in Christ). Two passages come to mind:

Nehemiah 4:14 When I saw their fear, I rose and spoke to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people: "Do not be afraid of them; remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses."

Luke 22:35-38 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.
"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

The message from my perspective on the subject is to not get carried away. However, He is our sovereign Creator and for reasons beyond my grasp, He desires to use us as His tools according to His purposes. He even takes pleasure in the ant mentioned in Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant, O sluggard, Observe her ways and be wise.

[Adopted Son]

I like the symmetry of what they are doing. They congregate to be in like company, there symbolically is no safer place than among those possessing the truth. Again, in a world of anti-truthers, and haters of God's word, it would be an amplification of the ability to react to evil, even if there is no impending need.

My son and I were fishing nearby a waterfowl flyway, and it was duck season. We could hear the hunters taking their shots. As we walking in on the pier, a couple of hunters came in from the preserve and the public went nuts seeing a shotgun. People are too into a "perfect place" that man has told them could exist. Like Walt Disney.

If you eat meat, somebody has to kill the animal. Guns are better than sticks.

[Robert]

Luke 22:47-52

47 While He was still speaking, suddenly a mob was there, and one of the Twelve named Judas was leading them. He came near Jesus to kiss Him, 48 but Jesus said to him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they asked, “Lord, should we strike with the sword?” 50 Then one of them struck the high priest’s slave and cut off his right ear.

51 But Jesus responded, “No more of this!” And touching his ear, He healed him.

Notice that more than one disciple was armed. Jesus and his disciples carried a large treasury with them. Not knowing what the large crowd intended, the disciples arose to defend themselves and the Lord with their swords.

Today, thugs, druggies and thieves target homes on Sunday mornings for a reason. Next target is the churches because the criminals think that church goers are unarmed. They will go after the tithes and offerings that are collected each time the church doors are open.

Then there are the whack jobs who (in increasing numbers) will go into churches and martyr attendees just because they are Christians. It has already happened, but the victims were not recognized as martyrs.

Jesus told His Jewish believer-disciples that in the beginning of sorrows, "Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name." Matt. 24:9.

"Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!” While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled." (Matthew 45-56, NIV)

As much as I don't believe in simply letting someone attack those I care about, if we are going to quote scripture, we must quote the parts that pertain to what we discuss, whether they support it or not.

There is nothing wrong with protecting yourself, as Livin' has said. My fear is that we go overboard and turn ourselves into walking armories.

And yes, I already know folks in this thread won't like what I have to say. Well, my apologies, but I say what I feel led to say. I protect myself when I have to, but my faith is not in armament or my abilities.

[mattfivefour]

Well said, Robert.

[mattfivefour]

After I left California, I obtained a concealed carry permit and now carry my "sword" (just like the disciples) when in public

Sorry to jump in on this, but where does it say the disciples carried a real sword? I am aware of the one passage where Jesus said sell your cloak and by a sword. But that it was intended metaphorically is clear from the fact that NONE of the apostles—despite the greatest threats and actual attacks—ever defended themselves with any weapon ... and that the one time a disciple actually used a sword, Jesus commanded him to put it away. The sword we should give up all (even our cloak) to obtain is the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Word of God ... not the book, but the light of it burning in our hearts and shining through our lives.

This comment has nothing to do with the topic of defending the weak. I for one would not hesitate to use whatever force is necessary—including deadly force if required—against evil people trying to harm the helpless and vulnerable. But if Christians start carrying weapons to protect their own lives, including in Church, then what does that say about our faith and how does that square with the apostles and all of the early church who went to their deaths singing hymns and praising God, testifying by their deaths that God is real?

[Chris]

Let's please not turn this into a let's carry a gun so we can be John Wayne when the needs arises. I think like many other things, we need to leave this in the Lord's hands. What about the kids who accidentally shoot themselves playing with their parents guns because they weren't locked up. There's plenty of those. We can't sit around and worry about every little scenario out there or we'd all never leave our houses.