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  1. #41
    nana is offline Citizen

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    Clearly when a Christian sets out to share what God has laid on their heart, they do not set out to hurt feelings. I know Robert did not. Yet whether it hurts someone cannot be our worry if we are speaking the truth out of love and concern. If over the past few weeks you had heard from the number of people that Robert and I did who have not posted their hurt and confusion but have expressed it privately to us about the fear-inducing posts they have been reading on this site, then you would understand why Robert had the urge to write ... and that it was done to help protect and nurture young and fragile believers.

    He wrote as he was led and for the motives I have described. I believe he was correct to do so. And those who responded to the criticisms of his OP here were doing so because they too have shared Robert's concerns.

    I guess you and I disagree on one thing and that is whether we need to massage the message so as to make it palatable or to avoid hurting feelings. I believe we do not ... indeed, that we MUST not. That is the problem with too many churches today. Why we have so many weak Christians and so much bad doctrine. Preachers are so concerned over hurting feelings that they soften their message to avoid upsetting people. They err.

    As long as your motive is love and not condemnation or a feeling of superiority then I believe you preach it as you receive it ... and trust God to use it as He sees fit-- to encourage some and correct others, to comfort some and sting others. And that is what I think has been done here.

    I pray you receive what I have written in the spirit in which I wrote it-- brotherly love and not any sense of superiority or condescension.
    __________________
    I just give up! I have apparently not done a very good job of presenting this as a whole. Snippets of what I say are being seized upon instead of the considering the totality of what I'm trying to convey, so I just give up.

    I have said, at least three times now, that I have no beef with Robert's original post, and yet it keeps being brought up. I'm not now, and never was, attacking Robert, or what he posted. This has been about what I picked up on in subsequent posts. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

    If some here think the right approach is to "sting" people with scripture to get you're point across, then go right ahead. I give up trying to merely encourage the consideration that perhaps that approach sometimes does more harm than the good for which it was intended.

    I can't and won't do it that way. I don't feel the Word loses any of it's power just because it is presented with gentleness. I don't want to "sting" anybody with the Word. I prefer to gently draw them to understanding of the truth. So feel free to "sting" away. I won't interfere again.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattfivefour View Post
    I'm getting what you are saying ... and I guess that is where we disagree. I believe that if the motive is correct and one has a gentle spirit then the Word will do its work— no need to massage the message. For someone to judge "how" a message is presented is, in many cases, a personal judgment.

    As to the way we should speak the Word— attacking a specific individual is one thing; posting a general exhortation is another. We should definitely avoid the former for as it says in Galatians 6:1a "If a brother be overtaken in a fault, restore them in the spirit of gentleness." But we should never avoid the latter. The OP and all of the supporting posts that I have read here have been general exhortations unless answering a specific poster's specific point.

    We have to be careful that when we deal with these matters we are using God-given discernment not the human discernment which arises out of our human compassion.
    I believe we have had this same discussion in another "apostasy" thread a while back, regarding Rick Warren. You said the same thing then, and I have given much thought on the matter. I have come to agree more and more with what you believe in regards to exhorting the Word in original form without altering message NOR presentation. We are seeing far too much falling away from the original message, and it is extremely dangerous. One little rub here and there has turned into a full blown massage! And it's really starting to rub me the wrong way! (No pun intended :) ). I have come to realize that no matter what I say, I do not know better than the Lord, so when I exhort His Word, I say it just like it is without alteration (adulteration?).

    I dont want to get too far off track here from the original thread, but just wanted to thank you for postulating your PoV a while back

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    I just give up! I have apparently not done a very good job of presenting this as a whole. Snippets of what I say are being seized upon instead of the considering the totality of what I'm trying to convey, so I just give up.

    I have said, at least three times now, that I have no beef with Robert's original post, and yet it keeps being brought up. I'm not now, and never was, attacking Robert, or what he posted. This has been about what I picked up on in subsequent posts. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

    If some here think the right approach is to "sting" people with scripture to get you're point across, then go right ahead. I give up trying to merely encourage the consideration that perhaps that approach sometimes does more harm than the good for which it was intended.

    I can't and won't do it that way. I don't feel the Word loses any of it's power just because it is presented with gentleness. I don't want to "sting" anybody with the Word. I prefer to gently draw them to understanding of the truth. So feel free to "sting" away. I won't interfere again.
    Nana,

    I completely see what you are saying. The Lord didn't at first bring the woman at the well (John 4) by 'stinging her' with His Word (or convicting her-at least He didn't start the conversation that way). No, at first He was gentle, kind, and compassionate, and she was ready to hear Him ("please, sir, give me the water"). Then He did convict her of having several husbands. That is a good example of I think what you are getting at (am I right?). I could be wrong about this; I don't know.

    HOWEVER, IMHO this thread is a different scenario. We have Believers running around afraid of everything. This is not Scriptural obviously. The question is how to deal with this.

    IMHO, this thread is a no nonsense thread because I feel like this thread is aimed at the Believer, not the non-Believer. This is where God's word actually does sting. We, as Believers, are stung by rebuke (we indeed are, no matter what people say), simply because we love our Master, hate to be wrong, and know we were wrong. It takes a lot of submission to admit to our Master that we disobeyed, and that does sting. There is no two ways about that. God does this because He loves His children (the church) not because He wants to hurt us. It is for our edification (and strengthening of faith and trust in God), like I said previously.
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

  4. #44
    Robert is offline Citizen

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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post

    I have said, at least three times now, that I have no beef with Robert's original post, and yet it keeps being brought up. I'm not now, and never was, attacking Robert, or what he posted. This has been about what I picked up on in subsequent posts. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
    I get it Nana, don't worry. 2:

  5. #45
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    Nana,

    I completely see what you are saying. The Lord didn't bring the woman at the well (John 4) by 'stinging her' with His Word. No, He was gentle, kind, and compassionate, and she was ready to hear Him. That is a good example of I think what you are getting at (am I right?)
    Yep.

    MHO, this thread is a no nonsense thread because I feel like this thread is aimed at the Believer, not the non-Believer. This is where God's word actually does sting. We, as Believers, are stung by rebuke (we indeed are, no matter what people say), simply because we love our Master, hate to be wrong, and know we were wrong. It takes a lot of submission to admit to our Master that we disobeyed, and that does sting. There is no two ways about that. God does this because He loves His children (the church) not because He wants to hurt us. It is for our edification (and strengthening of faith and trust in God), like I said previously.
    __________________
    Please continue. The scriptural club is working great. I'm a long time believer, and I can honestly say it's made a big impression on me.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    Yep.



    Please continue. The scriptural club is working great. I'm a long time believer, and I can honestly say it's made a big impression on me.
    Hi Nana,

    I guess I am not sure what you mean by the second point? Can you clarify 'Scriptural club' for me as I am not sure what you are talking about (and I am not that smart sometimes)

    Thanks Sis! 2:
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

  7. #47
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    I think this thread has been a good example of brothers and sisters in the Lord discussing an issue rather than arguing over it.

    I must say I agree completely with the content of Happy2Serve's latest post in this thread. The point about the way Jesus dealt with the woman at the well is well taken. (We could name almost any sinner Jesus dealt with, for that matter. He always dealt with them gently. His strongest remarks were always for the believer not the non-believer. And sometimes even gentle remarks could sting the hearer-- I am thinking here of the rich young man.)

    In any case, good job H2S ... and nana, I understand your position completely. I rejoice that Christians can share as we have ... not out of a sense of spiritual pride or defensiveness ... but out of love and concern for others.

    God bless you all.
    -------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a

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  8. #48
    nana is offline Citizen

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    Can you clarify 'Scriptural club' for me as I am not sure what you are talking about (and I am not that smart sometimes)
    Yes, I can clarify. When I made the following post:

    And as God's wisdom and discernment is with each of us today, let us not judge the discernment of others as long as it is in accordance with scripture. I can find no scripture that tells us it is wrong to prepare for the worst. Let us each be free to discern for ourselves what action we choose, not out of fear, but out of belief that what God has revealed to us is truly at hand.
    The response was verses of scripture from Matthew about not worrying. I felt as though it was a reprimand, an admonishment, a rebuking--metaphorically speaking, a beating with a (scriptural) club. It felt that way to me because I never once said or implied that I was worried or fearful. To post these scriptures as a response, implies that I'm not trusting in God, so to me it the response was presumptuous and condescending even if it wasn't meant to come across that way. It's a giant leap to assume that just because I'm defending the rights of others to store up some extra stuff, I'm lacking in Godly trust.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    Yes, I can clarify. When I made the following post:



    The response was verses of scripture from Matthew about not worrying. I felt as though it was a reprimand, an admonishment, a rebuking--metaphorically speaking, a beating with a (scriptural) club. It felt that way to me because I never once said or implied that I was worried or fearful. To post these scriptures as a response, implies that I'm not trusting in God, so to me it the response was presumptuous and condescending even if it wasn't meant to come across that way. It's a giant leap to assume that just because I'm defending the rights of others to store up some extra stuff, I'm lacking in Godly trust.
    Thank you for clarifying. I think I understand you. BTW: I thought you meant 'club' as a group of people, not an object of beating people with. Now, I am clear of what you said.

    Nana, remember this: only you and God know exactly where your heart truly is. It sounds like you trust in Him already. None of us are trying to be condescending, please know this. We just want to spread the message to Christians that fear-mongering in these last days does either nothing to the board's ministry or attacks/diminishes the board's ministry. That is all we were saying. 2:
    Last edited by happy2serve; March-21st-2009 at 03:15 PM.
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

  10. #50
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    Nana, remember this: only you and God know exactly where your heart truly is. It sounds like you trust in Him already. None of us are trying to be condescending, please know this. We just want to spread the message to Christians that fear-mongering in these last days does either nothing to our ministry or attacks/diminishes our ministry. That is all we were saying.
    __________________
    I know. I get that. All I ever wanted to point out, or get folks to think about, is how what they post can be perceived by others. It's important!! We all want to be heard and have our posts thoughtfully considered. Don't jump to conclusions or make assumptions. If you're not sure ask questions. The best reply may not be to post a bunch of cut an pasted scripture. Take the time to really hear and understand, and reply with understanding and gentleness.

    I was a youth Director for several years. I never would have gotten through to any of them if I just quoted scripture to them. I had to take the time to understand where they were coming from, and go from there. God cares about how we feel. He understands our human emotions. He is patient with us. We need to be the same with each other. At least that's how I see it.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    I know. I get that. All I ever wanted to point out, or get folks to think about, is how what they post can be perceived by others. It's important!! We all want to be heard and have our posts thoughtfully considered. Don't jump to conclusions or make assumptions. If you're not sure ask questions. The best reply may not be to post a bunch of cut an pasted scripture. Take the time to really hear and understand, and reply with understanding and gentleness.

    I was a youth Director for several years. I never would have gotten through to any of them if I just quoted scripture to them. I had to take the time to understand where they were coming from, and go from there. God cares about how we feel. He understands our human emotions. He is patient with us. We need to be the same with each other. At least that's how I see it.
    I appreciate where you are coming from Nana. It does depend on the circumstance (see my previous post #43). It sounds like you were pretty much ministering to non-believers at the time, which, like I said, is different. However, I agree completely with Matt's previous post. I am not going to apologize for the stinging of the Word. That is what the seeker sensitive churches are doing and they are leading many astray. I will not water down the gospel for anyone. And if 'Believers' don't come back after hearing this, then maybe they weren't true Believers to begin with (it reminds me of the parable of the seeds Mark 4:1-20). (With that previous sentence, I am not trying to say anyone is 'holier than thou' or anything. This is just an observational point.). Jesus said it plainly with His disciples, when He said often, "oh, what little faith have ye". This last point is more of a wake-up call to all Believers to have faith!

    However, I will try to approach a non-Believer with the goal of understanding where they are coming from and with gentleness of heart. This thread is not geared for the non-Believer! It is for the Believer to remind him or her to not worry because His or Her God WILL provide for him or her.

    I guess maybe we have to agree to disagree on this. I do appreciate all the work you did while being a youth minister. It takes a special person to do that. I also appreciate the fact that you are concerned about what people are reading on our board. With that point, I understand where you are coming from.
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

  12. #52
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    Assumptions? Have you assumed that when I say "gentleness" I mean "seeker sensitive?" I don't. Have I said or implied that I want to "water down" the message? I abhor the concept of a "feel good" Gospel.

    If I scream at you, do you get the message more effectively than if I just speak it to you gently. Is the power of scripture diminished when it is spoken in gentleness and humility?

    Just so it's clear, the vast majority of youth I dealt with were believers. I am a believer. I still maintain that there are responses made that have a condescending tone, and I don't think it makes the point more effectively.

    You seem to agree that it's OK to be gentle with a non-believer, but seem to imply that there is no need to be gentle with a believer. When Paul was writing to the church in Corinth, was he talking to any believers when he said, "If I have the gift of prophecy, and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. Does love encompass gentleness, compassion, humility? Is he saying that you can know and quote every single scripture there is, but if it is not done in love (I think love includes gentleness), it is nothing? Could "it is nothing" mean it is not effective?

  13. #53
    JesusIsLord is offline Resident

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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    Assumptions? Have you assumed that when I say "gentleness" I mean "seeker sensitive?" I don't. Have I said or implied that I want to "water down" the message? I abhor the concept of a "feel good" Gospel.

    If I scream at you, do you get the message more effectively than if I just speak it to you gently. Is the power of scripture diminished when it is spoken in gentleness and humility?

    Just so it's clear, the vast majority of youth I dealt with were believers. I am a believer. I still maintain that there are responses made that have a condescending tone, and I don't think it makes the point more effectively.

    You seem to agree that it's OK to be gentle with a non-believer, but seem to imply that there is no need to be gentle with a believer. When Paul was writing to the church in Corinth, was he talking to any believers when he said, "If I have the gift of prophecy, and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. Does love encompass gentleness, compassion, humility? Is he saying that you can know and quote every single scripture there is, but if it is not done in love (I think love includes gentleness), it is nothing? Could "it is nothing" mean it is not effective?
    You are right. But sometimes we (as believers) can be as gentle and loving as we possibly can and remind a brother or sister of a certain passage in scripture to make a point, and it cuts them to the heart, that believer may not have enough spiritual maturity to accept the biblical criticism and may respond angrily because they feel attacked. There is nothing we can do at that point. This is where many Christians "massage" the gospel so it is better received. I personally feel if it is this point is reached, then we should let God take over the situation and work on the brother or sister's heart, rather than explain the message away in different forms.

  14. #54
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    You are right. But sometimes we (as believers) can be as gentle and loving as we possibly can and remind a brother or sister of a certain passage in scripture to make a point, and it cuts them to the heart, that believer may not have enough spiritual maturity to accept the biblical criticism and may respond angrily because they feel attacked. There is nothing we can do at that point. This is where many Christians "massage" the gospel so it is better received. I personally feel if it is this point is reached, then we should let God take over the situation and work on the brother or sister's heart, rather than explain the message away in different forms.
    We agree quite a bit here. If we speak in gentleness and love, and they are convicted, then they were convicted by the Holy Spirit, but not by us or our approach, and that's the way it should be. It is not our job to convict anyone whether he be a believer or not. Conviction is the realm of the Holy Spirit. Human conviction is judgment, and that's not our job.

    Maybe this example will help. Some people like to hear a preacher who paces back and forth, pounds on the pulpit, and practically yells through his whole sermon. They like the message of the Gospel delivered in a forceful way. For others, this approach detracts from the message. For them the same exact message would have been more effective if the preacher had just spoken calmly and gently. Please, please, note that I said the same exact message not a "watered down" or a "seeker sensitive" message.

    So for me the gentler approach is the default approach because people who don't object to a more forceful approach won't be offended by a gentle approach, but those who prefer a gentle approach will always be offended by a forceful approach. So why risk it?



    Once again, I am not in favor of any type of watering down or massaging of God's Word, and I'm not quite sure what I'm saying that keeps bringing up those responses.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    Assumptions? Have you assumed that when I say "gentleness" I mean "seeker sensitive?" I don't. Have I said or implied that I want to "water down" the message? I abhor the concept of a "feel good" Gospel.

    If I scream at you, do you get the message more effectively than if I just speak it to you gently. Is the power of scripture diminished when it is spoken in gentleness and humility?

    Just so it's clear, the vast majority of youth I dealt with were believers. I am a believer. I still maintain that there are responses made that have a condescending tone, and I don't think it makes the point more effectively.

    You seem to agree that it's OK to be gentle with a non-believer, but seem to imply that there is no need to be gentle with a believer. When Paul was writing to the church in Corinth, was he talking to any believers when he said, "If I have the gift of prophecy, and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. Does love encompass gentleness, compassion, humility? Is he saying that you can know and quote every single scripture there is, but if it is not done in love (I think love includes gentleness), it is nothing? Could "it is nothing" mean it is not effective?
    Sis, it is not me that stings; it is the gospel. I never spoke anywhere about 'screaming or yelling' to anyone (Believers and non-Believers alike). That is anger, and anger is a sin. The stinging part is the gospel itself (the true gospel) which stings out of love (like I said in my earlier posts) because the Father loves His children and will rebuke them (which stings) when they need it. It is totally done out of love. By definition, God's children are Believers, so the stinging of rebuke will come to God's children, like I said in my earlier posts. It is solely for edification and discipline of His children. In my previous posts, I said that maybe we, as ministers to the faith, should be gentle to non-Believers when first trying to minister to them, like our Lord seemed to have done. That is all I was getting at before. But, like I said before, there is a difference between Believers and non-Believers, and this thread is for Believers, the children of God, for the edification of the church in these last days.

    I don't think anyone in this post is speaking of screaming at someone when they talk about 'stinging rebuke'. I think all of us would agree on that. Stinging rebuke is a harsh rebuke, yes, but the type of 'stinging rebuke' spoken of in this thread comes solely from the CONTENT of the message, not from screaming or yelling at someone (the DELIEVERY) of the message. These are two separate and completely different things here. Delivery is important, but I doubt anyone here is speaking of screaming at anyone as the delivery method. They are speaking of pure 'stinging' as the content of the message, which is the true gospel (and yes, it does sting us children, including myself many times). Rebuke of a child comes from love, as Solomon pointed out. So, yes, this 'stinging' is done solely out of God's love for His children.

    I never said you were seeker sensitive, and I never said that the kids you ministered to weren't believers. I just said they might not be believers. I would never say that ANYONE in particular is a nonbeliever, because ONLY GOD knows their hearts (and I would never venture to guess this for ANYONE in particular). However, spiritual maturity shows itself by hearing God's rebuke and welcoming it. Also, I did said that the Word that doesn't sting is getting dangerously close to being a watered down or seeker sensitive gospel if it isn't already. I will leave it at that. I have no apologies for that whatsoever. Everything the true Word does is completely out of love, and it does sting sometimes.

    If people get angry at this, then so be it. The world hated my Master before it hated me.

    I do love you, Sis, and I hope this discussion can continue in love. Like I said before, I admire the fact that you care so much for the content of this board, as I do. 2:
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
    You are right. But sometimes we (as believers) can be as gentle and loving as we possibly can and remind a brother or sister of a certain passage in scripture to make a point, and it cuts them to the heart, that believer may not have enough spiritual maturity to accept the biblical criticism and may respond angrily because they feel attacked. There is nothing we can do at that point. This is where many Christians "massage" the gospel so it is better received. I personally feel if it is this point is reached, then we should let God take over the situation and work on the brother or sister's heart, rather than explain the message away in different forms.
    I agree Goodlookin. Good points!
    Jeremiah 31:12

    12Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

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    What is the origin of this disagreement? What "stinging scripture" is being contended? I am completely lost as to which post brought up a debate regarding style and delivery of a message. Could someone help me out here?

    Return, O Lord! How long? And have compassion on Your servants.
    Oh, satisfy us early with Your mercy, That we may rejoice and be glad all our days!
    Psalm 90

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    Quote Originally Posted by pistache View Post
    What is the origin of this disagreement? What "stinging scripture" is being contended? I am completely lost as to which post brought up a debate regarding style and delivery of a message. Could someone help me out here?
    I think it comes from being a little too quick to take offense, believing that a scripture was being used as a rebuke rather than merely as the answer to show a statement made had another side.

    Sometimes we read too quickly and respond too hurriedly rather than praying first. The Bible says "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." Sometimes we are slow to hear and swift to speak. And to those who say no wrath was expressed in any reply here, let me point out the word translated "wrath". In the Greek it is ὀργή (or-GAY) which actually means any natural impulse, or desire, or disposition. It is often used in Greek literature with the meaning of "passion". It eventually came to mean a type of anger but here I think we can probably accept its meaning of "passion" and translate the last clause, "be thou slow to passion."

    Regardless of all of this, because the Holy Spirit did use the OP and some of the responses to "sting" some people I think a short passage from Proverbs is relevant here and I pray any who are upset in this thread ponder its advice:

    "Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy." —Proverbs 27:5-6

    When I am stung by a Christian I try to pray about what has been said and ask God to deal with me if it is in fact true. This before I ever respond. I realize that true Christians speak out of love and, while at times they may be wrong, their motives are pure ... they act out of love and concern for me or for others and therefore I should not take offense. Any offense I feel is evidence of my flesh at work and I allow the opportunity to surrender that to God so that every time my flesh appears I may offer it to Him to be killed.

    I am nowhere near perfect in this regard, but it is the way God would have us to be. And every time we can have an opportunity for our flesh to be exposed and dealt with by God we should welcome it ... though it hurts.
    -------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a

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  19. #59
    nana is offline Citizen

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    Sometimes we read too quickly and respond too hurriedly rather than praying first. The Bible says "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." Sometimes we are slow to hear and swift to speak. And to those who say no wrath was expressed in any reply here, let me point out the word translated "wrath". In the Greek it is ὀργή (or-GAY) which actually means any natural impulse, or desire, or disposition. It is often used in Greek literature with the meaning of "passion". It eventually came to mean a type of anger but here I think we can probably accept its meaning of "passion" and translate the last clause, "be thou slow to passion."
    Thank you!!! It seems, finally, someone has some sort of understanding of what I've been trying to say.

    Most of what I have said has been figurative in trying to explain, but it's been taken literally. The example of the very animated preacher was not about accusing people of yelling or screaming! It was to point out that even believers are different, and some are offended by too much passion (as the scripture denotes). Thanks for taking the time to understand. That's all I was ever trying to communicate.

    "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." Sometimes we are slow to hear and swift to speak.

    I never thought there would be such a lengthy debate on the concept of responding with gentleness. Doesn't the Bible say a gentle answer turns ways wrath (passion)?
    So, therefore, a gentle response can diffuse an argument; a heated debate; hurt feelings. What's not OK about that?

  20. #60
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    mattfivefour is offline Super Moderator

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    Quote Originally Posted by nana View Post
    Thank you!!! It seems, finally, someone has some sort of understanding of what I've been trying to say.

    Most of what I have said has been figurative in trying to explain, but it's been taken literally. The example of the very animated preacher was not about accusing people of yelling or screaming! It was to point out that even believers are different, and some are offended by too much passion (as the scripture denotes). Thanks for taking the time to understand. That's all I was ever trying to communicate.

    "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." Sometimes we are slow to hear and swift to speak.

    I never thought there would be such a lengthy debate on the concept of responding with gentleness. Doesn't the Bible say a gentle answer turns ways wrath (passion)?
    So, therefore, a gentle response can diffuse an argument; a heated debate; hurt feelings. What's not OK about that?
    There is nothing wrong with that, nana. Gentleness is part—or should be—of our nature.

    I think this entire thread took on a different tone because of a statement in earlier post of yours. To that point most of the responders had been positive and a only a couple raised the issue of the difference between hoarding and preparing, between resting in faith and acting in obedience. You raised a couple of good points in your post #29; but at the end of it you raised a new issue, one that had not been in evidence top that point. You said: "I am concerned that this debate can sometimes make people think that because they are storing up some extra food or whatever, that they are somehow less trusting and have a lesser amount of faith than others." And then you went on, "Sometimes it comes off a little "holier than thou," and that's the last message I would ever want to convey no matter how well intentioned it may be." I think THIS is what got the topic skewed. To that point there had not been any feeling expressed that anyone was feeling "holier than thou" on this topic ... and then you put it out there, a statement insinuating that some of the posters could be giving that impression.

    I think the OP, and the responders to it, all spoke out of love and concern. The suggestion that anything siad may have come off as "holier than thou" was offensive to some ... this on the heels of suggesting that somehow the writers were judging the discernment of others.

    So I do nto think it fair that you then suggest this entire debate has been about the need to deal with others with gentleness. I don't think anybody here disputes that. but there is gentleness ... and there is wishy-washy-ness. When Jesus dealt with the woman at the well(to use an example you yourslef raised) you say He did it with gentleness. but examine what He did. He did not accept her statements. He effectively told her she was an adulterous and did not soften that at all. And when she tried to raise a diverting argument He firmly brought her right back to the point. Yes, He was gentle ... but He pulled no punches. The gentleness was in the love He had for her despite her sin and the fact she was an idol worshipper (all Samaritans were which is why they were despised by the Jews). But He did not let that stop His message to her; rather it impelled Him to tell her the truth.

    That is all the OP tried to do And all that the responders tried to do, as well.
    -------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a

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