Murdering Thugs in Nigeria

[Robert]

Okay, I'm departing from this thread. I already got into it at a thread at RR; don't need this today.

[mattfivefour]

Sean, the proof is in eyewitness reports by reputable journalists, aid organizations and firms engaged in global intelligence and security ... not from government issued reports and depictions of the violence. Yes, there are those, too; but all major networks, including my own, have received credible reports from their own personnel; and both globalsecurity.org and Stratfor have documented incidents.

I am not about to engage in an argument over this. Nobody is condemning our brothers and sisters over there. The few horrendous events that have targeted Muslims over the past decade are clearly the work of nominal believers, not by members of Christ's body. To believe that everybody over there who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian indeed, bro, is to ignore not only history throughout the world, but the situation in the United States right now.

[Hebron]

What's behind Christian-Muslim fighting in Nigeria? / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

Hundreds dead after Christian and Muslim gangs clash in Nigeria | World news | The Observer

I could fill this page with evidence of fighting started by both sides and hundreds killed by both sides
I think you hit the nail on the head Mattfivefour by saying this little comment

not by members of Christ's body.

Amen to that brother!

Satan is on a hate-filled rampage and this is the end result. It's sick, it's evil.

this about says it all.

[Sean Osborne]

Sean, the proof is in eyewitness reports by reputable journalists, aid organizations and firms engaged in global intelligence and security ... not from government issued reports and depictions of the violence. Yes, there are those, too; but all major networks, including my own, have received credible reports from their own personnel; and both globalsecurity.org and Stratfor have documented incidents.

Matt

The point is that Nigerian Christians did not engage in a massacre of Nigerian muslims. Not one. It never happened. There is no evidence for this, no proof whatsoever, that Christians launched a surprise attack against Muslims in January. There is only a Muslim claim of such an atrocity, and even then their claim holds that 4 were killed and some cattle were taken.

This is atypical Al-Qaeda-inspired jihad. A non-existent event has been used by Al Qaeda in Nigeria as the pretext for revenge. There will always be some affront that these muslims will claim as requiring Islamic revenge - be it a simple cartoon or something which never happened.

My secondary point is that this bald-faced lie of Christians enaging in the massacre of muslims is being regurgitated AROUND THE WORLD and agreed with on this very forum.

"I could fill this page with evidence of fighting started by both sides and hundreds killed by both sides"

Both sides - Christians and Muslims? This is nonsense. This is saying Christians are as much to blame for these atrocities as are the Muslims who started this war in the first place. All human beings have the God-given right of self-defense against cold-blooded murder.

I am not about to engage in an argument over this.

What argument? I am addressing specific points at issue in order to shed light on the truth of the matter.

[mattfivefour]

It is most certainly NOT a bald-faced lie to say "Christians" engaged in a massacre of Muslims. Sean, my brother, note the quote marks around the word Christian. These are people who claim to be Christians but are not.

"Christians" massacred Incas for gold; "Christians" murdered Jews in England in the Middle Ages, "Christians" massacred aborigines" in Australia; "Christians" hunted Beothuk Indians in Newfoundland for sport; "Christians" murdered and raped people in the Middle East (and, for that matter, throughout parts of Europe and the rest of the Mediterranean) while fighting each other on the way to the Crusades. An indiscriminate lumping together of anybody who claims the name of Christ while living the opposite ("He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.") does no good for anybody. In fact it plays right into the view of the world that judges all Christians by the actions of the "Christians" they know.

God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. Unfortunately because Christians are lumped together with "Christians", the true brethren sometimes suffer the fate that the false have called upon themselves. And that is the reason the seminarians and true believers in Nigeria have been attacked and murdered ... along with others. Muslim or non-Muslim ... hatred and violence is ALWAYS spawned by Satan. We need to carefully discern in these last times. Calling oneself a Christian does not make one a Christian, .and by encouraging the view that all "Christians" are indeed Christians we merely assist in putting our brothers and sisters further at risk.

[Sean Osborne]

It is most certainly NOT a bald-faced lie to say "Christians" engaged in a massacre of Muslims.

Matt,

Then we will have to agree to disagree on this issue because I happen to know for a fact that the men who reportedly "massacred" Muslims in the village of Kuru Karama on Tuesday, 19 January 2010 WERE NOT positively identified as Christians, or even as "Christians," by any reputable individual or news agency or intelligence bureau. Not one. Furthermore, any organization, including STRATFOR or GlobalSecurity.Org, which reported such has actually reported false, errant, unvetted and uncorroborated information. In short, they have assisted in the propagation of a bald-faced lie.

The fact of the matter is this - the assailants were officially and simply identified as "armed men." According to Human Rights Watch, there were a couple Muslim's (al-Qaeda members) in Kuru Karama who stated "they thought the attackers were Christian." As I stated before this is a completely false allegation because believing Christians, including a Christian pastor, were living in Kuru Karama and were among those massacred. It was a Muslim Imam who reported this fact to Human Rights Watch investigators. Al Qaeda has seized upon this false information and have used it for their advantage and agenda.

Added info: The murderers of Muslims and Christians at Kuru Karama on Tuesday 19 January 2010 were Nigerian tribal animists. Such attacks have occurred with increasing regularity for the three decades.

This is the fact of the matter and the truth of the matter I was attempting to get to when I asked those questions of Matt a couple of posts ago. Whether "Christian" or Christian is used in a statement is completely irrelevant and a bald-faced lie. The murderous perpetrators at Kuru Karama were, in fact, tribal animists.

[mattfivefour]

Sean, I was speaking about a history of violence, not one specific attack. I will drop the subject now, because it has become too great a source of dissension ... between u, and among others on this site. I will offer the following statement from the leader of a Christian organization that helps the persecutedf church in which he confirms that Christians indeed engaged in violent reprisals against Muslims. The reasons are not important, the fact is that they did.

The spokes person is Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, International Director of the Barnabas Fund which provides financial and other aid to the persecuted church, particularly in Muslim countries. he is regarded as a credible individual. (BTW, in this quote he is speaking of violence in 2006, not the current round.)

“While I utterly deplore the Christian counter-attacks in Nigeria - for Christians should always be people of peace not violence - Archbishop Akinola has rightly pointed out that peaceful conduct is all too often seen as weakness by Muslims. This perceived weakness makes Christians all the more likely to be targeted. Western Christian leaders and Western governments, who are eager to prevent Muslim feelings from being hurt, do not seem to have the courage to speak out about what is happening to innocent Christian minorities in the Muslim world. If they will not condemn the anti-Christian violence or even publicise it, can they be so surprised when non-Western Christians – goaded beyond endurance – finally fight back?”

[Sean Osborne]

Sean, I was speaking about a history of violence, not one specific attack.

Matt,

My post above was in response to this specific item you posted early on in this thread.

You all know that I am in no way a Muslim apologist. but we need to put this story into perspective. Two months ago, in January, mobs of "Christians" attacked Muslims in a village south of the scene of this latest massacre, murdering about 150 of them. Apparently this latest massacre by Muslims was in return for the previous massacre by "Christians".

The murderers were not "Christians" they were Nigerian tirbal animists.

Again, this is not an arugment, this is a discussion regarding specific points.

As for Christians being peaceful - I agree. However, we both also know that many of hundreds of thousand our brothers and sisters in Christ have gone to war against many enemies.

Thousands of us are in combat operations against islam in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa, the Philippines and elsewhere. We do not wait for them to attack, we go out, hunt them down and kill them. We are at war. We are Christians and not "Christians."

Here are some of our Brothers and Sisters in Chist, in prayer, on the battlefield.

[Hebron]

Excuse me but we are speaking about people who are supposed to bear 'Fruits of the Spirit' which iare Love, Joy, peace, long suffering, Gentleness, goodness, Faith, meekness. ''Christian'' people not people who use Christianity for a cause and a purpose other than to further the Kingdom of God and bring in the lost
I often wonder which Bible some people read and which news feed they are taking in.
I can only say it's a funny Christian that can rampage through a village raping pillaging and mutilating another human being. There is no excuse or any words that can make this right, it is against everything that a true Born again believers stands for, that is if they are followers of Jesus Christ, if a person finds this ok and acceptable and conscience clear their is something far wrong and they need to examine themselves and examine the Bible and the words of Christ.
because we look at a photo of men praying in a battle field does not make it right!!!!!

[micah719]

Ok, how about the G.I.'s that invaded Hitler's Europe.....somehow I doubt that Hitler would have stopped being nasty if only someone had asked him nicely; someone had to go stop the rot, and I'm glad it wasn't left to the Soviets...

The situation with Iraq/Afghanistan is a little different but still a world apart from Roman Catholic Crusaders rampaging on the strength of a papal indulgence promising entry to heaven...or villagers launching revenge attacks. There isn't enough information on both the modern examples I mention here....so we leave it to the Lord to judge each individual's heart. I'm sure the soldiers on duty in Iraq/Afghanistan aren't so happy themselves, considering the moral and ethical factors, so they're trying their best in horrible position.

As for whether or not soldiers should be soldiers at all, consider the Centurion that the Lord marveled at for his faith and understanding of authority; and the other one that Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to. And what of the soldiers John the Baptist spoke to? They were told to be satisfied with their rations and to behave responsibly and righteously, but not to stop being soldiers. As for people that rampage and pillage and rape....those aren't soldiers and shouldn't expect to be treated as such; and if US troops behaved like that they would be receive worse punishment than those from most of the armies of this world. Things haven't fallen that far yet. In the Great Tribulation, when the mark of the beast has been administered, that's when the world will see what fallen armies can do, including that of the USA (if that still exists); but the soldiers of all the ages that were faithful and righteous will be horrified and disgusted, and contemptuous of them...is not our Lord Jesus Christ called the Captain of the Lord's host?

[mattfivefour]

I don't think Hebron is suggesting that soldiers cannot be Christians ... or, rather, that Christians can not be soldiers. My own grandson is serving and about to go over to Afghanistan. I interpreted Hebron's comments to mean that a picture of true Christians praying on a battlefield does not in any way bear on the original topics-- either that of Christians resorting to violence in retaliation for severe persecution ... or that of people who call themselves Christians engaging in violent acts for economic, religious, or ethnic/tribal reasons. The issues are separate.

Hebron, if I have misunderstood you on this, I apologize; and if you believe that it is never right for a Christian to be in the military then I respect that as a matter between you and God. But I am afraid I would have to disagree with your position.

[Sean Osborne]

I can only say it's a funny Christian that can rampage through a village raping pillaging and mutilating another human being.

Pray tell... exactly where on God's creation is this happening?

Moreover, you should get on your knees and thank God Almighty that the grandfathers of the male and female AMERICAN soldiers in that image saved your country from Adolf Hitler.

[Sean Osborne]

I don't think Hebron is suggesting that soldiers cannot be Christians ... or, rather, that Christians can not be soldiers.

Brother Matt,

That is exactly what Hebron said, and it is an intentional insult of the highest order.

[Hebron]

Hebron, if I have misunderstood you on this, I apologize; and if you believe that it is never right for a Christian to be in the military then I respect that as a matter between you and God. But I am afraid I would have to disagree with your position.

No Mattfivefour you never misunderstood me i'm so glad someone has the intelligence to see what my post really was implying.

That is exactly what Hebron said, and it is an intentional insult of the highest order.

Do you know what I find insulting? an armchair general spouting his mouth off as if this forum was his own private battle field.
You my friend would try the patience of a Saint. Read posts properly before you press the submit button.

[Hebron]

Moreover, you should get on your knees and thank God Almighty that the grandfathers of the male and female AMERICAN soldiers in that image saved your country from Adolf Hitler.

I'll agree with you on that one but don't forget we also have to thank the Russian people and Commonwealth countries and many more nationalities like the Polish people many who died for the sake of freedom and no matter how you look at Russia now, they fought and defeated 70% of the Germain army in WW11
But after that Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher(the Iron lady) and President Ronald Reagan won the cold war they stood toe to toe together Praise the Lord!!!!!

but I have to say all this in sadness and ask what is war good for? absolutely nothing!!!!
The sooner the Lord comes and takes us all home the better, even so Lord Jesus come.!!!

[Sean Osborne]

... i'm so glad someone has the intelligence to see what my post really was implying.

Yes, I agree Hebron, what you implied was painfully obvious, absolutely transparent.

I'm glad we're all in agreement, at least until the next incidence of world-class mass-murder terrorism by Islam.

[bghtnpd4]

I think it's time to move on guys...you're beating the horse to death and hitting each other in the process; neither of which is edifying to Christ or to the body and it needs to stop.

[Sean Osborne]

Sister bghtnpd4, I believe we have moved on - two days ago. Mod's might want to lock this thread.

[AnnS]

Referring to the poster who said muslims were being killed by Christians is that the mulims were killed by the authorities trying to stop the massacre.

A little history:

A little history - forty years ago, the Christians of Nigeria, fed up with anti-Christian jihad by Muslims, tried to create an independent state, called Biafra.

There's no doubt it could have been self-sustaining, because just as in the Sudan, the oil of Nigeria lay in the south, under Christian lands.

For over two years the Christians, who were mainly Ibo fought desperately, with almost no aid from outside. The West only wanted the oil flow to continue, so it did nothing while tens of thousands of Christians were slaughtered and starved out.So neither the Americans nor the British nor the UN lifted a finger to help the Christians of Nigeria. In July 1969 the leader of the Biafrans, Colonel Ojukwu, delivered his “Ahiara Declaration,” summing up the reasons for the war, and he spoke openly about the “Jihad” that the Muslims had waged on the Christians. No one in the Western world paid any attention. The death toll is estimated at perhaps a million Christians during the two year war, and that is conservative.

The West may not have understood, but Arabs understood that this was a jihad quite well. They openly aided in the massacre of tens of thousands of helpless Ibo villagers, with Egyptian pilots in Egyptian Migs strafing and bombing the civilians below.Oddly enough, the Israelis understood it was a jihad too..or perhaps what was happening to the Christians in Biafra struck a chord in their own past. They were the only other country aside from Ghana to recognize Biafra and attempt to aid them.

What is going on in Nigeria is what is going on in countless areas around the world, wherever Islam's aptly named 'bloody borders' meet the non-Islamic world, the part of the world Muslims themselves refer to as 'dar-harb' (literally, the house of war, the part of the world not dominated by Islam).

We fail to recognize this for what it is at our own peril.

h/t joshuapundit

[Sean Osborne]

AnnS,

It is simply outstanding to reference the Biafra conflict in this thread! It's probably no exaggeration to opine that there are Christians on this forum who have never before heard of the Biafran War before now. Well done sister!