Could Be a Very Rocky Week on Wallstreet

[Ruth]

When trust is broken it breaks down the relationship.

We may be watching the largest numbers of business divorces or refusal to join in a relationship in the history of mankind as trust breaks down in the world wide markets and banks refuse to lend to banks for lack of trust in their business practices, that they may never get paid back if there is any cooking of the books which is becoming a dirty little secret that is coming into the light at an alarming rate. Right now, almost no one trusts anyone else and everyone is taking the money the various government's around the world are handing out like candy and they are just putting it in their vaults and sitting on it until they see trust restored and transparency in the bookkeeping made law.

This is why the bail out won't work. The $700 bailout package was a power grab by our government to control our entire monetary system as the next step to creating the one world government and a giant leap towards the 'Mark of the Beast' as we won't be able to buy or sell without their say so.

Settlement day approaches for derivatives

By Aline van Duyn in New York
Published: October 1 2008 03:00 | Last updated: October 1 2008 03:00


The $54,000bn credit derivatives market faces its biggest test this month as billions of dollars worth of contracts on now-defaulted derivatives on Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers and Washington Mutual are settled.

Because of the opacity of this market, it is still not clear how many contracts have to be settled and whether payouts on the defaulted contracts, which could reach billions of dollars, are concentrated with any particular institutions.

According to dealers, insurance companies and investors such as sovereign wealth funds, which are widely believed to have written large amounts of credit protection through credit default swaps on financial institutions, could have to pay out huge amounts.

"There is a lot at stake," said an executive at one big dealer. "This is a crisis time, and if these auctions do not go well, or if the amounts investors and dealers have to pay is seen as not being fair, it could have further negative repercussions on the CDS market."

The "auction season" starts tomorrow, when the International Swaps and Derivatives Association has scheduled an auction for Tembec, a Canadian forest products company. This is followed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac auctions on October 6. Then, Lehman is settled on October 10, and Washington Mutual is scheduled for October 23.

Even though it is possible that some participants in the credit derivatives market will have to make large payouts, the flipside is there could also be big winners. For every loss in credit derivatives, there is a gain.
The amount of contracts outstanding that reference Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac alone is estimated to be up to $500bn. The default was triggered under the terms of derivatives contracts by the US government's seizure of the mortgage groups, even though the underlying debt is strong after the explicit government guarantee.

The CDS contract settlement could result in billions of dollars of losses for insurance companies and banks that offered credit insurance in recent months. The recovery value will be set by auction. Usually, the bond that is eligible for the auction that trades at the lowest price - the so-called cheapest-to-deliver - is the one that sets the overall recovery value for the credit derivatives.

In the Lehman case, numerous banks and investors have already made losses due to exposure to Lehman as a counterparty on numerous derivatives trades. The auctions next week are for credit derivatives which have Lehman as a reference entity. There are likely to be fewer contracts outstanding than for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because Lehman was not included in many of the benchmark credit derivatives. However, exposure remains unclear, which is one concern that regulators now have about the credit derivatives market.

Lehman's bonds have been trading between 15 and 19 cents on the dollar, meaning investors who wrote protection on a Lehman default will have to pay out between 81 and 85 cents on the dollar, a relatively high pay-out.
The previous biggest default in credit derivatives was for Delphi, the US car parts maker that went bankrupt in 2005 and which had about $25bn of CDS.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6beabcdc-8...nclick_check=1

[Alaska1]

I couldn't agree more, Ruth, the power grab, the step toward one-world government, giant leap toward the mark of the beast. Most likely, the whole thing was planned years ago--the whole order out of chaos thing. Things could get interesting fast.

[RyanMac]

I couldn't agree more, Ruth, the power grab, the step toward one-world government, giant leap toward the mark of the beast. Most likely, the whole thing was planned years ago--the whole order out of chaos thing. Things could get interesting fast.

While I don't think it's gone quite that far yet you were certainly right about the markets taking a beating today, Ruth. The DOW is down 6.8% and the NASDAQ 8%.
My parents' mutual funds are below the levels they were at a year and a half ago, and they are in pretty low risk stuff too.

[Ruth]

While I don't think it's gone quite that far yet you were certainly right about the markets taking a beating today, Ruth. The DOW is down 6.8% and the NASDAQ 8%.
My parents' mutual funds are below the levels they were at a year and a half ago, and they are in pretty low risk stuff too.

It is a shame they didn't bail out a few weeks ago when the heads up were all over and the market went up for the last dead cat bounce before the final collapse.

Even Kramer is telling everyone to SELL SELL SELL

And that is on mainstream MSNBC which would be irresponsible, actually causing a crash, if it were not so necessary.

The markets have been built on a house of cards for a few decades now. All this money was built on 'trust'

Well all that trust was put in a bunch of thieves who have also just put the entire US government up to shield them from liability.

This thing hasn't even begun to hit bottom. The problem is that there are no assets to back up these figures and everyone has finally figured this out. Everyone is searching for real assets and there simply are not enough of them to satisfy the trillions of debt that is out there.

The markets, over the last decade have been growing on pure paper of things called Credit Derivative Swaps, 560 Trillion dollars worth. They are worthless and the markets are capitulating the truth.

Look out below.

Another way to put it:
The Emperor has no close OR
Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain

[Suzanne]

I watched Glenn Beck this evening. He had three market experts on, and they all painted a very gloomy portrait. What I got from the program was to invest in gold and silver. Glenn Beck's advice to the poor among us was to buy non-perishable food, extra clothing, etc. He even advised to buy things like razor blades, tooth brushes, etc. That's not bad advice for any of us.2:

[mattfivefour]

The Toronto Stock Exchange (TSX) plunged more than 1,200 points in a couple of hours this morning ... before rebounding slightly to close about a thousand down. And Canada's economy is SOLID!!! :woah:

But the speculators are in panic mode and they are not making rational decisions.

I am now wondering (well actually I did before, too) whether the almost trillion dollar bailout will be enough to stop the hemorrhaging ... or to prevent a full collapse.

[open door]

I watched Glenn Beck this evening. He had three market experts on, and they all painted a very gloomy portrait. What I got from the program was to invest in gold and silver. Glenn Beck's advice to the poor among us was to buy non-perishable food, extra clothing, etc. He even advised to buy things like razor blades, tooth brushes, etc. That's not bad advice for any of us.2:

i'm in the stocking process now. have shells to hunt with, will get rice, dried peas, beans, canned goods. if this economy collapses like l929, grocery shelves may be bare, soon. like we said before, we know we'll be raptured before the trib. pd., but we don't know how bad it might get before the rapture. keep looking up

[Ruth]

Here is a list that was put together to prepare for a possible EMP attack. It can be used to prepare for a short term or longer term economic crisis. Especially if deliveries of goods are delayed because of not getting things from China (that is such a sad testimony to our country)

100 Items to Disappear First

1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of
thieves; maintenance etc.)
2. Water Filters/Purifiers
3. Portable Toilets
4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile
ANY!)
6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR
PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
17. Survival Guide Book.
18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is
difficult.)
19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
22. Vitamins
23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous
without this item)
24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit
35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
37. First aid kits
38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
41. Flour, yeast & salt
42. Matches. {"Strike Anywhere" preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first
43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns
47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience;
Historic Times)
48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with
wheels)
49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers,
etc
50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
51. Fishing supplies/tools
52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
53. Duct Tape
54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
55. Candles
56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
58. Garden tools & supplies
59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc
65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
76. Reading glasses
77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
78. "Survival-in-a-Can"
79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
85. Lumber (all types)
86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
87. Cots & Inflatable mattress's
88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
89. Lantern Hangers
90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
91. Teas
92. Coffee
93. Cigarettes
94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
95. Paraffin wax
96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
97. Chewing gum/candies
98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
100. Goats/chickens

[WKUHilltopper]

That's a pretty good list.

Here's some other places you all may want to visit:

http://www.efoodsdirect.com/index2.html

This site sells products that allow you to convert the humidity in the air for fresh water. Could be handy (since the NWO will be telling us that there's a world water shortage--of course, so they can gouge you on pricing for access): http://www.ecoloblue.com/

You know, my grandfather, told me as a kid to get a farm and make sure it's completely paid for. That way you can survive most anything. He survived the great depression. Guess I should have listened to him...

You probably want to get the cigarettes, as indicated in the list, even if you don't smoke (come to Kentucky to get them--you can get some brands for less than 20 bucks a carton. We are a tobacco state afterall)--because this will be a means of barter. You'd be surprised what you can get for a few cigs or even a pack--just ask those guys who were POWs in World War II.

You might want to get a good portable and easy to put together tent--just in case you need to get out of dodge quick.

Ruth, I don't think my neighborhood association permits goats or chickens. It's a deed restriction! LOL ...who knows, if it gets bad enough, we'll all be doing it and will be hard to enforce.

Ruth, on your number 8. Firearms, etc. Might want to add a bow. It's reusable "ammo" and quite. You may not to give away your position and a bow will help keep you concealed.

Hey Ruth--where do you get a boy scout handbook? I've lost mine years ago and always wanted to another one. I'm thinking a 1970's or 60's edition is probably the one you want--I can imagine the later editions are loaded with some community/PC nonsense. I want to the sections of knots, making traps, and woodland skills (which I'm assuming more updated versions don't have this in it).

Excellent list, by the way.

[Carl]

That is a formidable list. Some can forget for this year.
seeds out. for sure.

generator not much good unless have lots of gas.

firewood in city hard to get.

of course garden difficult too. altho knew man garden citylot that fed family of 4.

Have to carefully watch for supplies going down.

[WKUHilltopper]

i'm in the stocking process now. have shells to hunt with, will get rice, dried peas, beans, canned goods. if this economy collapses like l929, grocery shelves may be bare,

was reading an article about the woes of a company called Safeway(a grocery store in some states--not sure they're in Louisiana). They were complaining because of the credit crunch or the lack of credit in the market right now, they were having problems stocking some products and were expecting some empty shelves.

[open door]

was reading an article about the woes of a company called Safeway(a grocery store in some states--not sure they're in Louisiana). They were complaining because of the credit crunch or the lack of credit in the market right now, they were having problems stocking some products and were expecting some empty shelves.

yep, it's starting. we had safeway stores in this area for a while, but they sold out to other grocery chains. i'm so fortunate - i built a log cabin on the old homeplace 4 years ago, 25 x 20, central air/heat, bathroom, etc. cut trees on the place & built it ourselves, with Jesus' help. i can farm there (need to get seeds); hunt, fish in ponds, etc. we grew up that way, so can go back to it. we will just have to leave our house here, & go live there (fine w/me, anyway,lol). i spend half my time there, now. i bought a woodburning stove for "hard times", ready to install if need be. gonna go over the list ruth posted to see what all else i need. listen, hilltopper, in the obama is elected (i don't think he will be), go buy up ammunition as soon as ya can. he will impose a tax on it that will make it 5 times as expensive as already is. (backdoor measure to keep people from using guns, although that was upheld by the supreme court). anyway, i'm taking this economic thing seriously, many economists say it's all going down, and soon. just look at the world markets. well, i've said enough. keep looking up

[WKUHilltopper]

Oh, another recommendation. If you drink a lot of colas and you get those liter jugs. Even use the 1/2 or gallon milk jugs--just make sure you soap it up and clean it out thoroughly before using it for water, otherwise, you might be milk bacteria poisoning. Save them and fill these up with water. Rotate the water about every six months.

I'm thinking the Dow will be up about 100 or 200 points tomorrow. May close back up at 10,000. Probably a good buying opportunity. But then again, you can probably expect another nose bleed some time again--after all, they don't call October "black October" for nuthin'...

[WKUHilltopper]

yep, it's starting. we had safeway stores in this area for a while, but they sold out to other grocery chains. i'm so fortunate - i built a log cabin on the old homeplace 4 years ago, 25 x 20, central air/heat, bathroom, etc. cut trees on the place & built it ourselves, with Jesus' help. i can farm there (need to get seeds); hunt, fish in ponds, etc. we grew up that way, so can go back to it. we will just have to leave our house here, & go live there (fine w/me, anyway,lol). i spend half my time there, now. i bought a woodburning stove for "hard times", ready to install if need be. gonna go over the list ruth posted to see what all else i need. listen, hilltopper, in the obama is elected (i don't think he will be), go buy up ammunition as soon as ya can. he will impose a tax on it that will make it 5 times as expensive as already is. (backdoor measure to keep people from using guns, although that was upheld by the supreme court). anyway, i'm taking this economic thing seriously, many economists say it's all going down, and soon. just look at the world markets. well, i've said enough. keep looking up

I hear you bro! You really don't think Osama will be elected? Hope you're right. I've read about that back door with ammo. Jerks!

I've got about 1,000 5.56 mm NATO rounds, about 200 .243, 200 .30-06, 100 .45 ACP, 100 Double Ought 20 gauge buckshot for the women folk in the house and about 75 .357 mag--just bird shot for the 12 gauges, oh and a couple of hundred .22 long rifle. I probably should get more. Youre much better prepared than I am. The family has a condo on a lake, but it's up in the "mountains". Won't be able to grow much in the hills and dales....but not set up for self sufficiency (wood burning stove, etc) like you've got. Not to mention probably not near the seclusion you have.

You have any recommendations on ammo quantity? I got an A/R15 which fires the 5.56 mm round primarily because I'm so close to Fort Knox and figured if the balloon ever went up, I could probably scrounge around for some surplus military ammo. Been seriously thinking of some semi-auto 30 cal something rifle (maybe .308)--something with more punch and range than the 5.56mm. Probably should stick with a .30-06--I've always felt an advantage is to use the same caliber for everything, if possible, that way you don't have to scramble around for the ammo. But boy, that .30-06 is like shouldering a kicking mule! LOL

[open door]

I hear you bro! You really don't think Osama will be elected? Hope you're right. I've read about that back door with ammo. Jerks!

I've got about 1,000 5.56 mm NATO rounds, about 200 .243, 200 .30-06, 100 .45 ACP, 100 Double Ought 20 gauge buckshot for the women folk in the house and about 75 .357 mag--just bird shot for the 12 gauges, oh and a couple of hundred .22 long rifle. I probably should get more. Youre much better prepared than I am. The family has a condo on a lake, but it's up in the "mountains". Won't be able to grow much in the hills and dales....but not set up for self sufficiency (wood burning stove, etc) like you've got. Not to mention probably not near the seclusion you have.

You have any recommendations on ammo quantity? I got an A/R15 which fires the 5.56 mm round primarily because I'm so close to Fort Knox and figured if the balloon ever went up, I could probably scrounge around for some surplus military ammo. Been seriously thinking of some semi-auto 30 cal something rifle (maybe .308)--something with more punch and range than the 5.56mm. Probably should stick with a .30-06--I've always felt an advantage is to use the same caliber for everything, if possible, that way you don't have to scramble around for the ammo. But boy, that .30-06 is like shouldering a kicking mule! LOL

i agree, one gun for evrything. tht is why i chose (you'll never guess this), a .22. why? you CAN kill big game (whitetail deer) with it - head shots only. i killed a l50 lb. wild boar at 60 yds head shot with it. it's good for small game, and shells are relatively cheap. can get 500 rounds for about $l8. i have l,500 rounds. not, for self defense, a bigger gun would be necessary. but remember, choose a calibre that will be available in hard times. fresh water is a concern, i have natural springs on my place, so water's available. the old-timers also used salt boxes to preserve their game meat in. you can build one for nothing, and i understnd that bulk salt is cheap. we don't know how long we will go thru this before the rapture, but the Lord takes care of His own. so far we've discussed essentials, but i still say the MOST essentil item is the Bible. of course you will have it with you, and "be prepared" with the Word of God. keep looking up

[WKUHilltopper]

i agree, one gun for evrything. tht is why i chose (you'll never guess this), a .22. why? you CAN kill big game (whitetail deer) with it - head shots only. i killed a l50 lb. wild boar at 60 yds head shot with it. it's good for small game, and shells are relatively cheap. can get 500 rounds for about $l8. i have l,500 rounds. not, for self defense, a bigger gun would be necessary. but remember, choose a calibre that will be available in hard times. fresh water is a concern, i have natural springs on my place, so water's available. the old-timers also used salt boxes to preserve their game meat in. you can build one for nothing, and i understnd that bulk salt is cheap. we don't know how long we will go thru this before the rapture, but the Lord takes care of His own. so far we've discussed essentials, but i still say the MOST essentil item is the Bible. of course you will have it with you, and "be prepared" with the Word of God. keep looking up

I think a .22 is a fine choice. We can't use rim fire for deer hunting, only center fire in KY--I'm not sure if I've ever seen a center fire .22. I know you can get center fire rounds for a .223. I have no idea why that makes a difference to KY Dept of Fish and Wildlife and why you can't use a rim fire bullet deer hunting, but anyway a .22 makes an excellent choice. I use 'em for squirrel hunting. They're light, you can carry lots of rounds and relatively quite. I have an uncle who used to make silencers for his .22 out of motorcycle mufflers. Ugly, but very effective and illegal! Hahaha...you gotta love my gun runnin', back woods relatives! Wish I was more like 'em!

Oh yeah, having a Bible is a given! Which that reminds me of something when I was a kid in grade school back in the 60's. I remember teachers asking us, if we were stranded on a deserted island, which two books would you want to have with you? Invariably, the vast majority of the kids, if not all of them, included the Bible as one of the choices and some other book. Boy, I bet that's not even close to a choice nowadays. I mean, the Bible always popped up in your head as a choice without even thinking about it very long--the hard part was coming up with a second book because if you picked a comic book, you could get in trouble with the teacher! They hated comic books! hahahah

For concerns about 'fresh water'---take a look at this link I posted a bit ago. It's a bit pricey, but if you needed water, it probably wouldn't matter where it came from as long as it kept one alive. Of course you'd need an electric generator, but there's some places that sell "solar generators" which might work (probably not as well as a gas driven generator or you probably can't run as many things at once with it like a gas generator, but better than nothing--I'm guessing). I can post links for that too, if you'd like.

Creating drinkable water from the humidity in the air: http://www.ecoloblue.com/

[TexasThunder]

Im probably in the most precarious position. I live in a residential neighborhood in a small town outside of Austin. My Grandparents sold our small ranch in the Hill Country in the early 90s. I am well equiped with a 45 auto, makarov, 20 guage shotgun, swedish mauser, sks, and .50 cal black powder rifle, with plenty of ammo to boot.

And like you Open Door, a Bible in my hand!

[open door]

I think a .22 is a fine choice. We can't use rim fire for deer hunting, only center fire in KY--I'm not sure if I've ever seen a center fire .22. I know you can get center fire rounds for a .223. I have no idea why that makes a difference to KY Dept of Fish and Wildlife and why you can't use a rim fire bullet deer hunting, but anyway a .22 makes an excellent choice. I use 'em for squirrel hunting. They're light, you can carry lots of rounds and relatively quite. I had an uncle that used to make silencers for his .22 out of motorcycle mufflers. Ugly, but very effective and illegal! Hahaha...you gotta love my gun runnin', back woods relatives! Wish I was more like 'em!

hilltoppr, .22's are illegal for deer here, also (rimfire). what i was speaking of was in a time of dire crisis, survival, you use what you have. i'm not advocating illegal actities, i am addvocating survival for our families. that trumps some game law, in my opinion. insofar as obama being elected, i think something major is gonna happen between now & election that will open people's eyes . the economic crisis was only the beginning. people sat up & paid attention, but, they are only thinking of their pocket books, & are still ready to vote for "change", & that will be obama. however, keep in mind, this ME situation may very well "blow" between now & election. if it does, fasten your seatbelts; i think THEN that many will look beyond economics & think in terms of "who will be the best commander-in-chief during war times". this nation may very well get hit by suitcase bombs - not sure of that, but if the ME explodes, they're gonna come after us, i know that. just my take on it. i'll say this - if i'm wrong & obama is elected, GOD HELP US. and, He will. obama's election will just aid in bringing about the "fullness of the gentiles". it's all in His hands, we just don't know when He's gonna call us home. until then, let's just prepare for our families, keep spreading the Word, & keep looking up.

[WKUHilltopper]

hilltoppr, .22's are illegal for deer here, also (rimfire). what i was speaking of was in a time of dire crisis, survival, you use what you have. i'm not advocating illegal actities, i am addvocating survival for our families. that trumps some game law,

I agree completely. Hunting seasons will pretty much be a joke at that point. There'll be a hunting season 24-7, 365 days a year. They won't like it, but tough. In the 1700's and prior, the king considered wildlife his property--the state has this own opinion of itself today. And you'd go to jail (or worse) by taking the king's "property". I only comply with the hunting laws because of choice and don't agree game is owned by our king/government. But if the balloon goes up, it's immaterial what they say or think.

[WKUHilltopper]

I'm thinking the Dow will be up about 100 or 200 points tomorrow. May close back up at 10,000. Probably a good buying opportunity. But then again, you can probably expect another nose bleed some time again--after all, they don't call October "black October" for nuthin'...

Well---so much for that prediction---