Felons to get to vote?? I thought they couldnt vote once you were a felon period!

[god_chick3]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27023034/

[open door]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27023034/

didn't hillary introduce legislation tht changed all that?

[RyanMac]

Seems like it would make it easier/more accessible? Not sure. The little graph says 40 states already allow former felons to vote.

[Ruth]

If we actually accept the fact that these people paid their debt to society and are 'rehabilitated' when they are released, it does make sense for them to be restored to voting.

The only felony that I think should carry a lifetime of no voting is for murder or seriously harming another person to the point they can no longer vote.

If they have taken away another person's right to vote through their actions, then they should lose theirs.

[RyanMac]

If we actually accept the fact that these people paid their debt to society and are 'rehabilitated' when they are released, it does make sense for them to be restored to voting.

I wanted to say this exact same thing but I was afraid of the reactions I would get, so thank you. :iagree

[Ruth]

I wanted to say this exact same thing but I was afraid of the reactions I would get, so thank you. :iagree

It is human nature to want ourselves to be forgiven once we have paid a price for things but that others often are expected to pay their debt forever.

It really is what 1/3 (or more) of the Bible is all about.

[Daniel]

How many felons ever voted before they were convicted?

We're not exactly dealing with model citizens here.

Felons who get released served a finite period of time. Their victims and the victims families always get life.

[Ruth]

How many felons ever voted before they were convicted?

We're not exactly dealing with model citizens here.

Felons who get released served a finite period of time. Their victims and the victims families always get life.

In the course of my work, I have reviewed thousands of criminal records.

There is a lot people don't know about 'felons'

Most domestic abusers only get a wrist slapped at least 4-5 times before they are finally dealt with on a misdemeanor level. Rarely are they ever a felon.

Most white collar crimes are negotiated to misdemeanors and the person never spends time in jail.

Many felons are drug related and a lot of them are first time offenders who were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Many felons are those who couldn't afford a decent attorney and ended up with the harshest sentence.

In Michigan it was a felony to steal anything of value over $100 until it was changed in Jan 1999.

I looked at criminal history of a man who had not returned his tuxedo after his wedding because his bride died on their honeymoon and he just forgot. He was charged with felony theft and carried that record on him making it almost impossible to get a job until I ran across his file and helped him get it fixed.

There are a lot of assumptions about felons. I used to have them too. I learned a lot once I started working with the Welfare to Work program where many felons end up - on the public rolls because they can't get a job.

Felons are, for many, those who were caught doing things others get away with on a regular basis and we call them upstanding citizens. They system is far from fair.

[open door]

In the course of my work, I have reviewed thousands of criminal records.

There is a lot people don't know about 'felons'

Most domestic abusers only get a wrist slapped at least 4-5 times before they are finally dealt with on a misdemeanor level. Rarely are they ever a felon.

Most white collar crimes are negotiated to misdemeanors and the person never spends time in jail.

Many felons are drug related and a lot of them are first time offenders who were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Many felons are those who couldn't afford a decent attorney and ended up with the harshest sentence.

In Michigan it was a felony to steal anything of value over $100 until it was changed in Jan 1999.

I looked at criminal history of a man who had not returned his tuxedo after his wedding because his bride died on their honeymoon and he just forgot. He was charged with felony theft and carried that record on him making it almost impossible to get a job until I ran across his file and helped him get it fixed.

There are a lot of assumptions about felons. I used to have them too. I learned a lot once I started working with the Welfare to Work program where many felons end up - on the public rolls because they can't get a job.

Felons are, for many, those who were caught doing things others get away with on a regular basis and we call them upstanding citizens. They system is far from fair.

ruth, i agree that our system is far from fair. however, i don't think we should excuse individual responsibility. in this nation, we have rights which were secured by the blood of our brave men and women. freedom was bought with a price. when these people choose to step outside the will of God, and the laws of this country, they are purposely putting their "rights" at risk. first time drug offenders who happened to be in the wrong place? who made the choice to be in tht place? they did. who made the choice to do drugs? they did. on & on. lawyers argue there is no individual responsibility. all the liberals say "it's not my fault, it's somebody elses". no, we all have free will, and make individual choices, and will suffer the consequences if we make the wrong ones. just my take on this

[WKUHilltopper]

Of course we want felons voting. They can't make prudent decisions--that's why they're felons--we want people who cant exercise prudent judgment. That way we can get fascists elected, like Obama. Because they wouldn't know tyranny if it bit them on the hind end.

[Ruth]

ruth, i agree that our system is far from fair. however, i don't think we should excuse individual responsibility. in this nation, we have rights which were secured by the blood of our brave men and women. freedom was bought with a price. when these people choose to step outside the will of God, and the laws of this country, they are purposely putting their "rights" at risk. first time drug offenders who happened to be in the wrong place? who made the choice to be in tht place? they did. who made the choice to do drugs? they did. on & on. lawyers argue there is no individual responsibility. all the liberals say "it's not my fault, it's somebody elses". no, we all have free will, and make individual choices, and will suffer the consequences if we make the wrong ones. just my take on this

I think you have completely missed my points. I am not excusing them on any level. But I think that weighing that the system is not fair - which means there are a lot of people out there (including a lot of our leaders) who have done equal or worse and except for the fact that they have great attorneys and are better at it they don't have a felony history.

The other point is that a lot of the felony histories are bogus and are either subject to judicial favoritism or based on archaic laws that took too long to get changed.

My last point is - people we call 'felons' means they were convicted of a crime, sentenced to time in jail or prison, had to pay money, and when released from the system their debt is supposed to be considered paid in full.

Christians should understand what that means better than anyone else. While we don't deserve to be in heaven with God, Jesus paid in full the debt for our sins (crimes) we could not pay.

Now, if we are going to say that felons are never released from their debt that this would mean we are asking for a different justice for them than we are receiving from our Lord.

[open door]

I think you have completely missed my points. I am not excusing them on any level. But I think that weighing that the system is not fair - which means there are a lot of people out there (including a lot of our leaders) who have done equal or worse and except for the fact that they have great attorneys and are better at it they don't have a felony history.

The other point is that a lot of the felony histories are bogus and are either subject to judicial favoritism or based on archaic laws that took too long to get changed.

My last point is - people we call 'felons' means they were convicted of a crime, sentenced to time in jail or prison, had to pay money, and when released from the system their debt is supposed to be considered paid in full.

Christians should understand what that means better than anyone else. While we don't deserve to be in heaven with God, Jesus paid in full the debt for our sins (crimes) we could not pay.

Now, if we are going to say that felons are never released from their debt that this would mean we are asking for a different justice for them than we are receiving from our Lord.

i am in complete agreement with your last few paragraphs about christians. the first few, which relate to the judicial system of this nation, i will not argue here because it would serve no useful purpose (in church). keep looking up

[Ruth]

i am in complete agreement with your last few paragraphs about christians. the first few, which relate to the judicial system of this nation, i will not argue here because it would serve no useful purpose (in church). keep looking up

The first few paragraphs, in a nut shell are saying:

There but for (money, dumb luck in not getting caught, or a generous judge) there are a LOT of people voting who are worse than those who were caught.

So using the ideology that they use poor judgment so we don't want them voting is not addressing the problem. A lot of those 'felons' are amazing people who did something stupid in their life and are incredibly sorry they did and deserve to be restored to society.

Is everyone who is standing in judgment over this going to say that they have never done something stupid? Of course not.
The only difference is you didn't get caught or you were spared being tripped up into a nightmare.

I remember right after my husband was killed by a drunk driver I actually went out and got drunk and drove home. Can you believe it? I can't either looking back at it. I was so angry and hurt and wanted to die myself that I didn't give two thoughts to the consequences. I just wanted to drown the pain with liquor.

But I didn't hurt anyone and I didn't get caught.
However, the woman who killed my husband did get caught and has a felony record.

Now her and I are guilty of the same crime and yet I can vote. In my state, even if you do not take a life, it is possible to get a felony history for drunk driving.

Do you see my point? And if every one is truly honest with themselves, they have done things they should have been caught for when they were young and stupid or in a fit of rage or pure emotion and were not thinking straight that other people were caught over and now have felony records and even though they paid their debt they are told they don't use good judgment and shouldn't vote.

Dr. Dino - the man who has done an amazing job in teaching the world the lies of evolution and rebuts their claims with truth is currently serving a Felony prison sentence for tax evasion.

Has anyone ever lied on their taxes? If you say yes, but it isn't the same. Then you are simply not arguing if you are a felon or not but that it is a matter of degree and who draws the line?

The moment we start pointing fingers and judging then we have to do a hard self inspection and see if there is a log in our own eyes.

[rollo]

...if anybody looks at this from a "feeling" point of view, then by all means put a polling place in every jail house from local to federal prison and give all thses people a chance to vote. Other-wise, whatever the law says, obey it or suffer the consequences...

[Ruth]

...if anybody looks at this from a "feeling" point of view, then by all means put a polling place in every jail house from local to federal prison and give all thses people a chance to vote. Other-wise, whatever the law says, obey it or suffer the consequences...

How is anything I have said anything about 'feeling?'

I am simply pointing out facts. And for Christians to use two different levels of justice is wrong.

But you are right - whatever the law says - obey it. The law says that those who have served their time and paid their debt can vote.

And as for people forever branding felons as less than they are need to remember the words of our Lord
"whoever is without sin cast the first stone"

[mattfivefour]

Someone once said, "Justice is what we want to see imposed on others; mercy is what we seek for ourselves."

And how true that is!!! But the fact is— WE DESERVE JUSTICE. Nevertheless, because we cried out to God for mercy, He expunged our sins and freely gave us what we begged for.

And He also gave us a plain lesson so we would not forget what we deserved ... what we got because of His forgiveness ... and what that should produce in us.

"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents (approximately 7 and a half million dollars) was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii (less than $20); and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

You expected God's mercy? He gave it. You wanted God's forgiveness? He gave it. And he gave it freely. But you want your fellow man to always carry the burden of his sin against you?

Now, if he loves his sin and continues in his sin and is still seeking to fulfill his desires regardless of whom he harms, then of course you need to protect yourself. You are not to be foolish.

But if he has paid the price and regrets what he or she did and now wants to be part of society, then we need need to think about what God says. I do not believe that He speaks idly.

.

[rollo]

How is anything I have said anything about 'feeling?'

And as for people forever branding felons as less than they are need to remember the words of our Lord
"whoever is without sin cast the first stone"

That's taking scripture out of context again. Since all have sinned, how can anybody judge? If a law says once you've been convicted of a feloney you can't vote again, then we are to obey that law. You don't like it... change it! Jesus used the hypocracy of the crowd against the mob. They knew the woman was a *****. They brought her before Christ to trap Him. All Jesus did was throw it back in their face.

[Ruth]

That's taking scripture out of context again. Since all have sinned, how can anybody judge? If a law says once you've been convicted of a feloney you can't vote again, then we are to obey that law. You don't like it... change it! Jesus used the hypocracy of the crowd against the mob. They knew the woman was a *****. They brought her before Christ to trap Him. All Jesus did was throw it back in their face.

I am not taking it out of context.
The law was changed so that they can vote and people were objecting.

If the law says they can vote and they have paid their debt then why shouldn't they be able to vote?

Many here are saying that they don't think they should because they made a bad judgment call.

All I was saying is 'who hasn't made a bad judgment call'
and pointing fingers saying their sins are worse than mine is hypocrisy.

[Ruth]

Someone once said, "Justice is what we want to see imposed on others; mercy is what we seek for ourselves."

And how true that is!!! But the fact is— WE DESERVE JUSTICE. Nevertheless, because we cried out to God for mercy, He expunged our sins and freely gave us what we begged for.

And He also gave us a plain lesson so we would not forget what we deserved ... what we got because of His forgiveness ... and what that should produce in us.

"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents (approximately 7 and a half million dollars) was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii (less than $20); and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

You expected God's mercy? He gave it. You wanted God's forgiveness? He gave it. And he gave it freely. But you want your fellow man to always carry the burden of his sin against you?

Now, if he loves his sin and continues in his sin and is still seeking to fulfill his desires regardless of whom he harms, then of course you need to protect yourself. You are not to be foolish.

But if he has paid the price and regrets what he or she did and now wants to be part of society, then we need need to think about what God says. I do not believe that He speaks idly.

.

You said it so beautifully! Thank you for verbalizing what I was failing to do.

[Daniel]

Ruth,

I'm not doubting your stories at all, but what percentage of felons is that?

Since you do such work I'm sure you are aware of the recidivism rate among felons in the U.S. and there are in fact those who throw a brick through a store window so a cop will come along and "rescue" them.

Consider the recidivism rate in Japan - about 3%. Hardly anybody wants to go back to a Japanese prison. But that's another thread, if not another forum- or another board!