Felons to get to vote?? I thought they couldnt vote once you were a felon period!

[sandy]

Sandy, you are talking out of both sides of the situation. On one side you stand as a Christian and say they need to hear the gospel but on the other hand you want to continue to hold them in a state of accountability forever for what they did in the past.

We are commanded to forgive. Forgiveness means we leave the revenge to God.
These people have paid their debt to society and in our hearts, their debt in any other way. We don't need to start a relationship with them but we do need to forgive them - fully.

no I'm not. its just a fact there are consequences in this world.
even God holds us to accountablility.
not for salvation but other.

having consequences for our actions is not revenge.

hate brings forth revenge. revenge is getting even with spite.

[Ruth]

no I'm not. its just a fact there are consequences in this world.
even God holds us to accountablility.
not for salvation but other.

having consequences for our actions is not revenge.

hate brings forth revenge. revenge is getting even with spite.

When you say accountability what do you mean exactly?

[mattfivefour]

no I'm not. its just a fact there are consequences in this world.
even God holds us to accountablility.
not for salvation but other.

having consequences for our actions is not revenge.

hate brings forth revenge. revenge is getting even with spite.

With all respect, I believe hate and unforgiveness are both rooted in the same sense of our own self rights.

Yes, there are consequences for our actions. Of course. But God has chosen to forgive us our consequences and even forget our actions ... if we but accept His offer of forgiveness HIS way. The problem comes when we choose NOT to offer the same forgiveness and mercy to others. God's Word plainly tells us that behaving in this way means we put ourselves in danger of having to re-accept our consequences in the same way we are demanding others accept theirs.

As a human being I agree with your sentiments, Sandy, because my human nature and human reasoning demand we take precautions against people who have done bad things and never forget that they were a danger once and may be again.

But God's Word says something different. Now, what am I going to do? Accept HIS Word? Or my reasoning?

I'll tell you what I am going to do. I am going to "cast down imaginations (λογισμοὺς log-is-MOOSE = logic, thought, human reasoning)" ... in other words throw down my own human reasoning and logic and also "every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" and I am going to "bring into captivity every thought (νόημα NO-ay-ma = perception of my own) to the obedience of Christ." —2 Corinthians 10:5

[RyanMac]

If they have paid their debts to society I do not understand the problem.

[sandy]

With all respect, I believe hate and unforgiveness are both rooted in the same sense of our own self rights.

Yes, there are consequences for our actions. Of course. But God has chosen to forgive us our consequences and even forget our actions ... if we but accept His offer of forgiveness HIS way. The problem comes when we choose NOT to offer the same forgiveness and mercy to others. God's Word plainly tells us that behaving in this way means we put ourselves in danger of having to re-accept our consequences in the same way we are demanding others accept theirs.

As a human being I agree with your sentiments, Sandy, because my human nature and human reasoning demand we take precautions against people who have done bad things and never forget that they were a danger once and may be again.

But God's Word says something different. Now, what am I going to do? Accept HIS Word? Or my reasoning?

I'll tell you what I am going to do. I am going to "cast down imaginations (λογισμοὺς log-is-MOOSE = logic, thought, human reasoning), and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." —2 Corinthians 10:5

Matt God never told us to stick our heads in the sand.

he even tells us HOW to deal with these things.
and yes consequences are a reality of the scripture.
not as hateful, spiteful people,
but in love.

if you go back and re read what I said,
what I said about having mercy in the flesh you'll get it.

if you go back to the scipture you cited,
the person asked forgiveness over a matter of owing moneys.
was forgvien , but then went and came down on someone else.

how many come to ask "forgiveness" of you? we are talking about felons.
take the whole scripture. not out of context.

one asks forgiveness we are commanded to give it.
required: asking.

do we dish back what was given out? no.
but in the sense that a felon must go to court and stand the punishment of the crime is important.

a murderer, is not to run the streets. must be dealt with although that person, maybe regrettfully sorry for their actions.

[god_chick3]

I have a question:
Even if we are forgiven, dont we still live out the punishment or the consequences of our actions to the letter of who is the person who decided the punishment?

[mattfivefour]

I have a question:
Even if we are forgiven, dont we still live out the punishment or the consequences of our actions to the letter of who is the person who decided the punishment?

No. Thank God you don't! For if you did then you would be in hell for a very long time. God's forgiveness means you do not pay the penalty either.

When you deal with the consequences of your sin (as David did with his baby and with his family later) you are living out not a punishment but the natural consequences of your actions. For example, rob a bank and become a criminal. this will be on your record for life. And this is where people get off on the wrong track and believe that we should always paint the once-guilt with a red letter. It is a fine point of discernment to differentiate between someone reaping certain consequences and our placing upon them a further burden of punishment for what they did. One is natural and Divine. The other is human.

[god_chick3]

No. Thank God you don't! For if you did then you would be in hell for a very long time. God's forgiveness means you do not pay the penalty either.

What I was trying to get at was that we usually reep what we sow even after we repent we can live out on this planet for years to come for the wrong that we created or someone in our lives.

[mattfivefour]

What I was trying to get at was that we usually reep what we sow even after we repent we can live out on this planet for years to come for the wrong that we created or someone in our lives.

OK, god chick, I understand. And yes, we can reap out what we sow ... though often God mitigates it. That is His choice. I could be now reaping the crop of the seeds I once sowed. In some ways I am. But in many, many others I am not. Indeed God has performed a healing and granted me a truly blessed life of service to Him.

All I am saying is let GOD judge, once an individual has answered to man's justice. And let GOD punish, should He choose to do so, once an individual has accepted the punishment required by man's legal system.

But let US choose to forgive as we ourselves have been forgiven.

[Ruth]

I have a question:
Even if we are forgiven, dont we still live out the punishment or the consequences of our actions to the letter of who is the person who decided the punishment?

No. Thank God you don't! For if you did then you would be in hell for a very long time. God's forgiveness means you do not pay the penalty either.

I think what she referring to is the temporal consequences. That is what a lot of this discussion is crossing over. It seems there is a fuzzy line for many as to what is forgiven in the spiritual and what about the consequences in the temporal.

Temporal:
If we over spend and don't have the money to cover it - we have to suffer the financial consequences such as losing our home or losing our car.

If we give someone a bad check knowing we could not cover it - that is theft and we must pay for our crime - financially and with punitive aspects such as losing our freedom for a time.

But where the fuzzies come in are the long term consequences of the person breaking our trust (Our as in society)
Trust is what is at issue here. They are saying that we should NEVER give them our trust every again. But is that really fair? We expect others to restore their trust in us if we screw up. Shouldn't it be by the individual not just because they were caught and now wear a label?

When we over spend and lose our car or house over it, we can recover. That was a mistake, and we may even have trouble getting credit for a spell but eventually, we are restored and the consequences are completed.

In a perfect society the consequences are directly related to the infraction.

But there are spiritual consequences to the person and that is atonement to God. Jesus did that. He atoned for our sins.
Jesus also atoned for every sinner out there - even the felons. It is between them and God if they receive the gift. But our job is to show them that forgiveness and His love on the front lines.

He forgave us our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers

[mattfivefour]

Matt God never told us to stick our heads in the sand.

he even tells us HOW to deal with these things.
and yes consequences are a reality of the scripture.
not as hateful, spiteful people,
but in love.

if you go back and re read what I said,
what I said about having mercy in the flesh you'll get it.

if you go back to the scipture you cited,
the person asked forgiveness over a matter of owing moneys.
was forgvien , but then went and came down on someone else.

how many come to ask "forgiveness" of you? we are talking about felons.
take the whole scripture. not out of context.

one asks forgiveness we are commanded to give it.
required: asking.

do we dish back what was given out? no.
but in the sense that a felon must go to court and stand the punishment of the crime is important.

a murderer, is not to run the streets. must be dealt with although that person, maybe regretfully sorry for their actions.

Sandy, I went back and re-read all of your posts. I fully understand the point you made near the end of the preceding page about our offering mercy in the flesh. It's a good point. But I do not think that is what is being suggested here. Nor do I think forgiving someone AFTER THEY HAVE PAID THEIR LEGAL DEBT TO SOCIETY is a fleshly exercise at all. I believe it to be simple obedience to God. Not trying to explain away and rationalize His Word, but simply obeying it.

I do not think I or anybody else who have argued for forgiveness in this debate has ever believed that law-breakers should not be punished. That would be ridiculous. As you have quite correctly argued it would lead to chaos in society. But that has NEVER been what this debate has turned on, as I read the posts. The debating point is "Once someone has paid their legal debt to society, should they then be forced to pay further debts for as long as they live because they once were found to have violated the laws of society (which may or may not be the same as God's laws)?"

And on THAT issue I come down on the "nay" side. If they have paid their debt, then they are to be forgiven.

Should they then re-offend then that is another matter. But we have to realize that offending is sometimes more the result of circumstances than it is a wanton disregard for the laws of society.

[Ruth]

I just wanted to add to what Matt said about (that which may or may not be in God's laws)

To take the logic of holding someone accountable for a life time means we need to round up every woman and man who have been involved in the act of taking the life of their unborn child and treat them the same as we would a convicted felon of murder.

Because - even though it is legal in society - it is not legal in God's eyes.

So how would we reconcile all the things that society deems legal but God does not?