My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[micah719]

At this stage of history we have access to so much information that there is no excuse for people to say they didn't have the correct Scripture. We are commanded to be diligent and STUDY the Word of the Lord, it isn't reading for entertainment or a source to shore up favourite doctrines.

"I'm not saying that we should doubt all the scripture"

Doubting the Scripture would be similar to calling God a liar, or not able to protect His Word; and seeing as how we are commanded to renew our minds in it and rely on Scripture to guide our way, it must be very important indeed. The Lord does indeed pay attention to detail, and warned us explicitly to beware leaven, even or especially in small amounts. It breeds!

If you stick to the (original Hebrew) Masoretic OT and the (original Greek) Textus Receptus NT you are on solid ground. Get into the Septuagint OT or the Sinaiticus NT and you're on shaky ground. When it comes to really fine distinctions I personally go to interlinear KJV and look at the original text in the original language, and also the various modern translations, even going to German concordant translations...but whatever comes out of it has to fit with the rest of the Bible. Not saying I'm a super dooper scholar or immune to error, but having had my ears clipped by High Authority on this matter I'm very careful and listen to rebuke from tried and tested brothers and sisters.

As far as the eastern "orthodox" church goes....same as any other long-established worldy organised denomination...take what they say with plenty of salt, and go to the original Scriptures and not their favourite copies after two thousand years of chinese whispers and the odd bit of "theological" interpretation...

Looking at that oft-misused quote about Peter.....consider that the Lord spoke to Peter as "Petros" (a little rock), but the Rock He builds His church on is Petra (a humungous rock, Gibraltar or Ayers Rock style...). Bang goes the RCC doctrine of Peter being the foundation...which is suspect in itself, not least because Jesus Christ The Rock is the Cornerstone, also the Roman system and Caesar the Pontiff being the murderer of Peter...strange how they claim their victim as their chief, and that against mountains of Scripture evidence. Perhaps that's why they used to prefer killing folks that dared to read the Bible for themselves...rotten Nicolaitans.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

2 Timothy 2:14-18
14 Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.
16 But avoid all empty (vain, useless, idle) talk, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness.
17 And their teaching [will devour; it] will eat its way like cancer or spread like gangrene. So it is with Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 Who have missed the mark and swerved from the truth by arguing that the resurrection has already taken place. They are undermining the faith of some.
19 But the firm foundation of (laid by) God stands, sure and unshaken, bearing this seal (inscription): The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names [himself by] the name of the Lord give up all iniquity and stand aloof from it.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
17 So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[telec]

I think it's interesting that no one has answered the original question pertaining to the latter part of Psalms 22 verse 24. Scripture often answers our questions if we continue to read the whole passage. (instead of picking through scripture) The answer may not be what we are looking for, because it may challenge our doctrine. At that point we have to decide whether to accept truth or reject it. If you reject scripture and walk away with your doctrine still neatly packaged, you may want to reconsider what you believe.

Psalms 22
vs 24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

[mattfivefour]

Not sure what doctrine you are referring to here, friend, when you speak of people's doctrine being challenged. As I read the majority of replies to mistaken views in this thread I see well-thought-out expansions flowing from the original thought, not a disregard of it, nor a defense of pet doctrines However, you are quite correct. Psalm 22:24 does indeed answer the question posed, as it pertains to Christ. For truly, as it says in Isaiah 53, he was afflicted for us. And, yes, it applies also to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

By the way, welcome to RF!

[Elijah's Mantle]

this is a extremely interesting thread
I could mot grasp one part of it though

[Meg]

this is a extremely interesting thread
I could mot grasp one part of it though

Which part?

[Elijah's Mantle]

sorry meg did not get back to this sooner

this one is the one I did not totally understand

I don't think my little peon brain can do justice to what happened when God the Father turned His face away from His Son. All I know is what limited knowledge and wisdom God has granted me from Scripture.
Let's establish according to God's word what sin is: Sin is lawlessness-1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact sin is lawlesness."

What does sin do in our relationship with God? Our sins SEPARATE us from God.--Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear."

What are the wages of sin? The wages of sin is Death. What is Death? Death is spiritual separation from God. For God said to Adam the MOMENT you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall DIE".
When Adam and Even sinned the Died that very moment spiritually --separated from God. God said the moment you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall DIE". When was Jesus separated from God? AT the cross the moment OUR sins were laid upon Him or when He died physically? May I submit to you that I believe Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus was separated before He died the moment God laid on HIM the INIQUITY of us ALL" and not when He died-Is.53:5-6

This is by no means exhaustive and I'm sure someone else can give a better explaination than I..
When did Jesus suffer the ultimate punishment for our sins? Before He died or after? When Jesus bore the sins of the world he suffered DEATH and tasted DEATH for everyone--Heb.2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone".

now Jesus being God in the Flesh and sinless was ABLE to pay the price of OUR sins on our behalf-the substitutionary atonement. God is HOLY and man is Sinful. Jesus having 2 natures -Romans 1:3,,,"who as to his HUMAN nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of Holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord"


I believe Isaiah 53 says it well with the Substitutionary Atonement: Jesus took our place on that CROSS and tasted DEATH for us.


Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus said the most wonderful words before He died. "It is FINISHED"--Paid in FULL and that's how I know Jesus paid for our SINS on the cross before He died..And that's why I believe Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus for a moment in all eternity was separated from God because of our iniquity

Last edited by myinnuendo999; March-16th-2010 at 09:58 PM. Reason: correct mispelling

How did Jesus have 2 natures ? ( Jesus did not have a sin nature ata all as far as I know )
so I dont understand .
And the part about separation

Jesus did die a full death yet he was resurrected by the Holy Spirit he still had some wound marks
what did Jesus mean when he said not to touch him ?

[Elijah's Mantle]

I guess it is I need to get all) the scripture so it connects the dots

Where did Jesus go after He died on the cross?

The Bible does not specifically state what happened to Jesus immediately after He died on the cross.
Perhaps the best known scripture that appears to deal with this issue is found in 1 Pet. 3:18-20,

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

When Jesus was made alive in the spirit, it is not saying that His spirit died and then it became alive again.
"Made alive in the spirit" is contrasted with "put to death in the flesh." why ? He first lived as mortal men
He began to live a spiritual 'resurrection' life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God. Furthermore, some Bibles (NIV, KJV, and NKJV) render the verse as "made alive by the Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit's work with Christ. “By the Spirit” translates one word, pneumati, which could refer to the third Person of the Trinity as the agent of Christ’s resurrection.2

One view where Jesus was and what He did before His resurrection is that He went to Hades (the place of the dead) and made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades/Spirit prison so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them. After all, the Bible says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27).

who were the ones in spiritual prison?
Some believe it is the people who were alive at the time of Noah's flood and who were killed in the flood. Others believe it is all humanity who died before the time of the cross. There seems to be support for the former position in 2 Pet. 2:4-5,

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly."


Some theologians believe that during the three days between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He descended into Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31),3 proclaimed to them the mystery of the gospel, and then led them into heaven to dwell with God. The belief is that they were not permitted to enter into the presence of God in heaven until after the atonement. Once that had happened, Jesus, who had died, descended to Abraham's bosom, proclaimed the gospel, and then led its residents into heaven.

there was some unfinished business when Jesus died, which needed attending to while He was in the grave in order to lie to rest the Old Testament prophecies.

These passages are prophetic quotes by King David
"Therefore my [Jesus] heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." Psalm 16:9-10

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Psalm 22:1

"You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; Psalm 68:18

Jesus speaks of Abraham's Bosom and Hades –

"So it was that the begger died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom…then he said. ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five bothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to Him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. 'But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" Luke 16:22-23,27-31

Jesus on the cross –

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, ‘If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deed; but this Man has done nothing wrong.' Then he said to Jesus, ‘Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' And Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:39-43

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Matthew 27:46

Death – Resurrection – Ascension

"Jesus, when He had cried out again with aloud voice, yielded up His Spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Matthew 27:50-53

Peter preaches to the Masses on the day of Pentecost, 10 days after the ascension –

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth…"Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it, for David says, concerning Him, ‘….Because you will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." Acts 2:22a-23-25,27

Paul speaking to church of Ephesus –

"But to each one grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore He says: ‘when He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men'. (Now this, "He ascended"-what does it mean but that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:7-10

Peter writing to all the churches spread throughout Asia Minor –

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

[mattfivefour]

I just want to correct something here. Romans 1:3 indeed informs us that Jesus Christ who is God, nonetheless in the flesh—in other words in his human incarnation—was born of King David's line. In other words He is God but was manifest in a human body as a descendant of Israel's greatest King. That is the entire import of this verse. Nowhere does it speak of two natures. The interpolation of the word "nature" into this passage is a most unfortunate choice of the NIV translators. It is their attempt to define "in the flesh" in this sense which actually means merely "in physical form". There is nothing of "nature" to it. Jesus was fully human yet He did not have a human "nature". Were He to have had human nature, He Himself in the flesh would have required salvation because human nature fell in Adam. Jesus was indeed prey to all of the temptations inherent in human flesh but He did not have the human sin nature and thus in no way sinned (Hebrews 4:15). Since 2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us that Christ knew NO sin, and since sin is even thinking something amiss, we can confidently say that He had no thought of sin, either. He was the perfect, spotless, sinless lamb of God(1 Peter 1:19), the perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 9:14) who is able to make US perfect (Hebrews 10:14).

Christ was fully human as He was fully God. But He did not have a dual nature. He was always God in nature and Spirit, even while human in the flesh.

Hope this helps.

[Meg]

OK Elijah, I have an answer for you that I am sure of. I asked my first teacher what Jesus Christ was afraid of in Gethsemane, was He afraid of being separated from God, and he told me I had the right of it. Doctrinally and Scripturally, he's on par with Matt and Mikhen.

When was Jesus separated from God? AT the cross the moment OUR sins were laid upon Him or when He died physically?

Lets take a look at the Scripture in question for reference:

Matthew 27:45-50

45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[d]
47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

The keys are dual. First, Jesus Christ, Who was without sin, had an open line of communication with God The Father which He could tap any time He wanted. This is why He knew things when He chose to "peek", but also let people answer in their own way if He chose to not "peek". )I can illustrate that later if you want, right now I have something going on behind the scenes thats putting some high demands on my little brain until I get it finished).

OK, so in order to bear our sins, Jesus Christ had to WILLINGLY permit Himself to be separated from God The Father for the first and only time in His Eternal Life, and frankly, that is the only thing in all Creation and beyond that could and did worry Him in the slightest. From the description in Scripture, I think it is safe to say the shock killed Him. The Son Of God is nobody's lightweight, and it took an unimaginably intense shock to make Him scream, the crucification didn't, and I think the soldiers who flogged Him went overboard because they couldn't make Him scream either, but thats just a good guess.

Make sense?

[Elijah's Mantle]

that is right on mattfivefour and meg
I agree he did not have a duel nature
he was a perfect sacrifice
and the crucifixion part I think the reason
there was no scream was because the blows knocked
the breath out of his body temporarily it was that brutal
unimaginable

[Elijah's Mantle]

when Jesus cried out in a loud voice and said what he did
he did not say what he did because of not knowing
Jesus acknowledged because in the book of John 1o:17-- 18 tells us that
Jesus laid down his life willingly just as you pointed out

God did not deliver Jesus even when he did cry out and say that which he did
because to of done so would have forfeited redemption for mankind
which can give every believer something very important to consider

also considering that in the book of Hebrew it tells us that
Jesus did not die until the Holy Spirit told him to
and that is when precise ((he gave up the ghost)))
Heb 9:14 "' How much more shall the blood of Christ ,who through the eternal spirit offered himself with out spot to God
right there it tells us Jesus Christ did not die until the Holy Spirit told him to die
and that NO MAN took his life from him Jesus offered himself with out spot to God
you know it can be said well and with out doubt from this scripture we can know that this does in fact totally
shoot down the false unscriptural doctrine that Jesus died spiritually on the cross . Heb 9 tells us ((NOT SO )))
had he of died spiritually on the cross as some false doctrines claim meaning he became a sinner on the cross
he could not have """OFFERED""" himself with out spot to God
Jesus only took upon himself the sin penalty which was death

[Meg]

It might be a good idea, Elijah, to review at least the Crucification accounts in Matthew, John and maybe Luke, then think and pray some more about your questions. It must not show now, but I pondered similar questions for several years, rereading the Gospels and Psalm 22 over and over, wondering at these things. Jesus Christ was clearly very aware of everything going around Him even as He was nailed to the Cross. Furthermore, it may have been hard to scream once they were up there, but first, being nailed to chunks of wood, and second, being hauled up like that would have ripped more than one scream of agony out of anybody else. Having survived a severe lower back sprain, I know a thing or two about extreme pain and one extreme scream...

As to His mortal death, He had this to say about what He was fully aware would be asked of Him and by Whom:

John 10:17-18

17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

To One who had never known sin, the experience would come as a deep shock, of that much I am certain. I have been too close to all the wrong things, and very close as well to all the Right ones, and the contrast is potent... The sensation of the darkest of evil would definitely have been a severe shock to the Son Of God, who had never indulged even the faintest touch of darkness. It meant THAT much to Him to bail us out of this mess. It well should be of great high value to us to be the recipients of such a generous personal Sacrifice...

[myinnuendo999]

I just want to correct something here. Romans 1:3 indeed informs us that Jesus Christ who is God, nonetheless in the flesh—in other words in his human incarnation—was born of King David's line. In other words He is God but was manifest in a human body as a descendant of Israel's greatest King. That is the entire import of this verse. Nowhere does it speak of two natures. The interpolation of the word "nature" into this passage is a most unfortunate choice of the NIV translators. It is their attempt to define "in the flesh" in this sense which actually means merely "in physical form". There is nothing of "nature" to it. Jesus was fully human yet He did not have a human "nature". Were He to have had human nature, He Himself in the flesh would have required salvation because human nature fell in Adam. Jesus was indeed prey to all of the temptations inherent in human flesh but He did not have the human sin nature and thus in no way sinned (Hebrews 4:15). Since 2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us that Christ knew NO sin, and since sin is even thinking something amiss, we can confidently say that He had no thought of sin, either. He was the perfect, spotless, sinless lamb of God(1 Peter 1:19), the perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 9:14) who is able to make US perfect (Hebrews 10:14).

Christ was fully human as He was fully God. But He did not have a dual nature. He was always God in nature and Spirit, even while human in the flesh.

Hope this helps.

and that's my point and I'm glad that you've pointed out the poor rendering of the NIV in making sure that there is no doubt that God's word clearly teaches that Jesus is fully human and fully God and never had a sinful nature since the word "nature" is a poor choice of words.

Thank you Adrian for the correction and wisdom from the Lord to protect us from false teachings