Mat 24:29-31 Question, Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib Rapture

[oceanminded]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:29-31)."

Many mid or post rapture teachers use this verse as proof that the Lord will not return for His Church until after the Tribulation. How do we debate this from a pre-rapture belief.

I was brought up believing in a pre-trib rapture Church. I still hold that viewpoint but I am open for a possible mid or post rapture scenario. I hope we are out of here soon but there is a possibility that the Church may have to go through some difficult times ahead. Do you think we may have to witness a possible WWIII type of event before the Rapture? Christians throughout history have had to endure many hardships. I think we should be ready for all possible outcomes.

[Robert]

Let's break this down:

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31, NASB)

This differs from the wording Paul used to describe the Rapture:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, NASB, emphasis mine)

The difference here is the words used to describe those being taken: in Matthew 24, the word that describes those taken is eklektos, which means "chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him". Whereas, the word used for the Church everywhere else in the New Testament is ekklésia, which translates to: "an assembly, congregation, church".

From the use of those words, those gathered are not the same as those taken in the rapture; the Lord at the Second Coming will gather those He has called to Himself during the Tribulation. Also, the passage in 1 Thessalonians mentions nothing about angels gathering up the elect. And in Matthew 24, it mentions nothing about the dead being raised, so I don't think Matthew 24 is describing the Rapture.

Hope this helps, Oceanminded. :

[livin_in_the_Son]

hey robert....just wanted to say thanks...because of your post i was able to cross another word off my list of things to look up

[LivnForChrist]

[Any Minute]

You might find a lot of answers you’re looking for in the articles below by Thomas Ice, and may compliment what Robert gave above.
Articles 28 & 29 go into detail “the who” of Matthew 24:29-31 and why a post-tribulation rapture or preterist view is incorrect.


http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...Interpreta.pdf

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...Interpreta.pdf

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...Interpreta.pdf

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...Interpreta.pdf

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...Interpreta.pdf

[oceanminded]

Robert, thank you for the clarification. My question would be then are there any verses that pertain to the timing of the rapture as it relates to the Tribulation. Is it possible that Christians may have to go through part of the Trib. Could we be around to witness Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38-39, The rise of the Anti-Christ, etc. How bad will it get before God decides to take us out of here?

[Robert]

Robert, thank you for the clarification. My question would be then are there any verses that pertain to the timing of the rapture as it relates to the Tribulation. Is it possible that Christians may have to go through part of the Trib. Could we be around to witness Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38-39, The rise of the Anti-Christ, etc. How bad will it get before God decides to take us out of here?

While we will not be here for the Trib, we are experiencing the "last hours" of this age. Scripture states:

"“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:7-13, NASB, emphasis mine)

One of the reasons we won't be here for the Tribulation is the purpose of the Trib:to shake the security and confidence of those in this world who do not trust in the Lord. Since those who believe are already the Lord's, He doesn't need to shake them in such a manner. As for the argument used by mid and post tribulation positions that it would be "to cleanse or purify" us for heaven: if we could be cleansed and purified by such a means, Christ then died in vain. Either His blood is enough or it isn't.

In regards to Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83, that remains to be seen. But I am sure of the fact that were aren't going to witness the rise of the AC to power. The final thing I can think of is that if the Rapture happens during or at the end of the Tribulation, then it cannot be "imminent"; that word means "can happen at any time". If it's mid or post trib, then at some point, folks would be able to figure out when it would happen, as at the very latest, it would have to happen right as Jesus returned.


And if that's the case, why even rapture anyone if the Lord is coming to Earth?

These are the best Answers I can think of, but for more resources:

When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?

I think that will be of immense help to you. Also, RF's main site is replete with a wide array of resources as well; I hope this helps answer some more of your questions. :)

-Robert

[mattfivefour]

Sean likely has more knowledge than I on the timings of the Revelation events (and their precursors as recorded in various End Times prophecies), but I believe it possible that Psalm 83, at least could occur before the Great Tribulation and, thus, before the Rapture.

The Great Tribulation cannot occur until after the Rapture because the Lawless One will not be revealed until after the one who is restraining is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7). The "one who is restraining" cannot be the Holy Spirit in His entirety because no one can be saved without the Father drawing them by His Holy Spirit (John 6:44); and Scripture reveals that countless numbers are saved during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:14). The only thing that disappears from the earth during the Great Tribulation is the Church. It is not heard from after Revelation 3:22 until Christ returns with the saints. Therefore until the Church—that is to say, all those who are in Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit—is removed, the Great Tribulation cannot begin.

Now I know there are those who believe in a mid-Trib, pre-Wrath rapture. And they do so on the presumption that the wrath of God is not poured out until the seven vials given to the seven angels are poured out in chapter 16. That these vials contain the wrath of God is unmistakable because it is explicitly stated in Revelation 16:1. The mistake made is that this indicates the BEGINNING of God's wrath. The "great day of the wrath of God and the Lamb" actually begins at the sixth seal of seven seals that precede the vials (Revelation 6:12-17, specifically Revelation 6:17). But this is its final outpouring, not its beginning. I would suggest that the Great Tribulation actually began with Christ breaking the first seal in Revelation 6:1-2, because this is when the first of the Four Horsemen is unleashed. And this is at the BEGINNING of the Tribulation events, not the middle, as a careful reading of the timings of Revelation indicate.

Interestingly, even the outpouring of God's wrath is intended to bring people to repentance, or to confirm them in their obstinate pride. It is much like the plagues that hit Egypt in the time of the Exodus. Each of the ten plagues was an opportunity for Pharaoh to repent and submit to God, but over and over Scripture records that "Pharaoh hardened his heart". At the conclusion of Revelation 9:20-21, we learn that those afflicted by the curses that followed each Trumpet blast, "did not repent" of their sins. In Revelation 16:9,11) it is recorded that even when the angels poured out the contents of the vials of God's wrath on the people of the earth, "they repented not"! See, if they had repented, they could have been saved. But "they repented not."

[Ducati]

Pri-trib is what I was raised on and according to the Bible it only makes common sense.

[Nathan Krause]

I've got some questions about this as well:

It says "in the days of Noah." I thought the non-righteous were taken in the flood, but Noah and Noah's family went into a safe harbor waiting until it was finished before then reclaiming the earth... Why do Christians believe the rapture is God taking those who believe and not the sinners? I heard someone say that the word for "taken" can also mean "seized" and the word "left" can also mean "freed." Wouldn't God come to sieze the unrighteous and set his people free?

The other point of heard on this topic in support of this idea that the rapture is referencing what God is going to do to those who don't believe is that they say that they don't know of a place in scripture where God says "run to fight another day." Other than "flea from temptation." But then again Noah didn't leave the earth, but waited in a safe place. The bible is full of verses that say to wait but none that I know of that say to retreat. And this point states that it seems interesting that God would send his son to save the world and then equip the church to "prevail against the gates of hell" (gates being a defensive structure, therefore stating that when the church is on the offence, hell can't stop it) but only when things get too bad for God to save, high tail it and run, taking his people with him so the world can be brought to ruin. They state, why would all creation be yearning for the sons of God to be identified if they will just be destroyed when it's too late? Plus theres the great revival that will cover 1/3 the poplulation of the earth in revelation. Seems there is a lot of believers so why leave?

(I'm asking here, just giving what I've heard; what do you guys have to say in response to these claims? I am not the best writer so if you could address the ideas I tried to express rather than the way I worded my sentences that would be helpful when I read the responses. Thanks!)

[mattfivefour]

Nathan, let's properly interpret what happened with Noah. He and his family were placed in the ark which floated above the waters and thus they were saved ... unlike the rest of the people who were left on the earth and thus drowned when God's wrath swept it in the flood. Does that make the parallel to the Rapture easier to understand? Because that is the correct picture.

In none of this is Noah left. Nor does Noah flee. Rather God removes him and keeps him safe from the wrath of His judgment as it was poured out on those who refused Him. That is what happens in the Rapture— those who are in Christ are removed to a safe place while God pours out His wrath on those who refuse Him. God tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10 that we who are Christ's are not appointed to God's wrath but are saved from it.

The purpose of the Tribulation is first to bring to the surface those left on earth who will be brought to faith in God by the tribulation horrors. Remember, God is not willing that any perish but all come to salvation; so He is giving everybody one last chance. Some people have to be placed in the pit of utter despair before they will look up. Second, the Tribulation will bring Israel to the point where they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Finally, it is to purify the earth for the return of Christ and the beginning of the thousand year reign.

The Tribulation does not occur despite God's efforts, it is the result of God's will. Thus the Church does not "run and hide when things get too bad for God to handle". That is just nonsense. God is sovereign and determined before the world was created that one day he would pour out great tribulation and His great wrath upon all unrighteousness on the earth. It is not something that happens despite Him, but because of Him. But He has promised to remove the Church from the horrors that will be so wide-spread that no man can hide from them. The removal of the Church is also necessary for the "man of sin", the Antichrist, to appear. As long as the Church is on earth, the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of the millions of Christians is acting as a restraint upon Satan. The power of God in us is greater than Satan's power. Once we are removed, Satan will have a free hand (within the confines of the dictate of God) to do his worst.

I think that deals with both your questions. If I missed something, or if you have new questions, please let me know.

[daygo]

Nathan, let's properly interpret what happened with Noah. He and his family were placed in the ark which floated above the waters and thus they were saved ... unlike the rest of the people who were left on the earth and thus drowned when God's wrath swept it in the flood. Does that make the parallel to the Rapture easier to understand? Because that is the correct picture.

In none of this is Noah left. Nor does Noah flee. Rather God removes him and keeps him safe from the wrath of His judgment as it was poured out on those who refused Him. That is what happens in the Rapture— those who are in Christ are removed to a safe place while God pours out His wrath on those who refuse Him. God tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10 that we who are Christ's are not appointed to God's wrath but are saved from it.

The purpose of the Tribulation is first to bring to the surface those left on earth who will be brought to faith in God by the tribulation horrors. Remember, God is not willing that any perish but all come to salvation; so He is giving everybody one last chance. Some people have to be placed in the pit of utter despair before they will look up. Second, the Tribulation will bring Israel to the point where they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Finally, it is to purify the earth for the return of Christ and the beginning of the thousand year reign.

The Tribulation does not occur despite God's efforts, it is the result of God's will. Thus the Church does not "run and hide when things get too bad for God to handle". That is just nonsense. God is sovereign and determined before the world was created that one day he would pour out great tribulation and His great wrath upon all unrighteousness on the earth. It is not something that happens despite Him, but because of Him. But He has promised to remove the Church from the horrors that will be so wide-spread that no man can hide from them. The removal of the Church is also necessary for the "man of sin", the Antichrist, to appear. As long as the Church is on earth, the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of the millions of Christians is acting as a restraint upon Satan. The power of God in us is greater than Satan's power. Once we are removed, Satan will have a free hand (within the confines of the dictate of God) to do his worst.

I think that deals with both your questions. If I missed something, or if you have new questions, please let me know.

Well said matt.

[mikhen7]

Great responses by all. Another way to look at Noah and Lot, both we are told hold keys to understanding the times as well as the Plan of God. Noah represents remnant Israel who will be saved through the Tribulation after turning to Jesus and accepting Him as Messiah. Noah was preserved through the flood only seeing and hearing the rainfall and was saved to move on with God's plan (Psalm 91). Lot represents the Church who will be taken out of the earth prior to the destruction's of the Tribulation. God could do nothing as far as judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was taken out of the city (Gen. 19:22).
God Bless!!