Question regarding departing from the faith

[Kris762]

I have a second question I'd like to post here...

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit 1expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed ato deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 bspeaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience cseared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is 2sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now what does Paul mean here...Is he stating that those who departed from the faith were once saved? And then departed and as a consequence lost their salvation?

[mattfivefour]

I have a second question I'd like to post here...

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit 1expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed ato deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 bspeaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience cseared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is 2sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now what does Paul mean here...Is he stating that those who departed from the faith were once saved? And then departed and as a consequence lost their salvation?

The passage you refer to in 1 Timothy 4 confuses a lot of people. It is used by those who suggest salvation can be lost. But, of course, there are ample verses to confirm that we are eternally secure in Christ ... because our salvation rests in what CHRIST did, not what WE did. However, in accepting this truth there is the danger of ignoring the importance of believing TO THE END. Those who are Christ's do this. Those who have never been Christ's in truth, do not.

This is one of the most important doctrines to clarify and understand that any Christian can labor at outside of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. And it is closely allied to that doctrine.

Hebrews 3:6 states flatly: "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Hebrews 3:14 says: "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

People don't like to linger over those verse. You see, it is more comfortable for us to skip right over those "ifs". But every word of Scripture is important. All of it is intended to teach us something. To blast past a conditional clause is to blunt God's Word to us.

Friends, this is something we must not do!

It was Jesus who said we are truly his followers "if you continue in My word" (John 8:31) ... something that so struck John the Beloved that he remembered it and repeated it in his second epistle. In the context of Christ coming in the flesh —and thus dying to pay for man's sin in fact, not in some cosmic fiction (which is what the Gnostics with whom John was contending were essentially teaching)— John wrote: "Anyone who goes too far (KJV: 'transgresseth') and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB) The KJV "transgresseth" can imply that the apostle is speaking of sinning by breaking God's commandment; but the word in Greek instead implies the idea of going too far, beyond the teaching of the gospel. Thus the construction that contrasts going too far with abiding or remaining. Those who remain constant to the gospel—that is to say, to the truth that salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone and what He did in Calvary alone, with nothing added—are God's.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul in his great doctrinal letter to the Church at Rome to write: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22) Read that again! "If" what? "Otherwise" what??? Brothers and sisters, it means exactly what it says. God's "kindness" is His grace, His love in action, expressed in the gospel of Jesus Christ and appropriated to us through faith in Jesus Christ— who He is, and what He did for us at Calvary. If we do not continue in faith in Christ, we will be lost.

"Oh whoa, bro!" I can hear someone shouting. "You are contradicting yourself. You are saying a saved person can be lost." No, I am not. I am saying a saved person will stay saved because his faith is in Jesus Christ and Christ's work is complete. That man will not depart from it. That man will neither turn back to wicked living nor trust in his works to save him. And should he ever be tempted (as most of us are at some time or another) Jesus will leave the secure 90 and 9 and seek out that wayward sheep and bring him back safely into the fold. There is never any danger of Christ letting us go ... providing we were of His flock in the first place. But not all who claim to be of His flock are indeed of His flock. And it is these latter who are the ones referred to in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. They were never saved, for if they were they would never have departed from Jesus. Let me demonstrate that to you.

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:1-5 NASB)

I have used the NASB, because it more accurately reflects the meaning of the Greek ... EXCEPT for the phrase "some will fall away." The original Greek for that phrase is ἀποστήσονταί τινες, literally "some will depart from". While "fall away from" is an interpretation of what it means to "depart from", "falling" implies a weakness, perhaps an accidental or passive act—whereas, "departing" implies a conscious, deliberate act. Further, the aspect of the Greek verb "will depart" clearly indicates that it is not something that is exclusively done to a person but something that a person participates in. In other words, the liars who carry the messages of the deceitful spirits and the doctrines of demons may have seduced the individuals who are led astray, but those individuals gave heed to them, choosing to listen to them, confirming all along that their hope of salvation was not firmly anchored in Christ.

No, in their minds, Christ was insufficient. They never fully trusted Christ's salvation. They just KNEW there had to be more to getting saved. And when the deceivers entered their midst and preached to them, they jumped at their demonic doctrines and denied Christ by trying to add works to faith. To them salvation became Christ AND ... something. Christ and celibacy. Christ and dietary laws. Christ and some act of denial. In other words, Christ and the efforts of the individual them self. They had never accepted that they could never make themselves acceptable to God. Thus they had never been saved. They may have given mental assent to Jesus in some fashion, but they had never recognized their hopelessness before God, their absolute inability to save themselves or to play any part in that salvation, and thus had never trusted in Christ alone for their salvation.

So, yes, they departed from the faith. But they departed because they had never had it in the first place. They superficially accepted it, but never believed it 100% in their heart. They professed it with their mouths so they could depart from it. Those who profess it in their hearts will never depart from it.

We are not saved by clinging to our faith to the end. We are saved solely by what Jesus Christ did at Calvary. And we appropriate that once-for-all finished salvation to ourselves solely by faith in Him. We merely prove that our faith in Him is and has been true faith, by clinging to it to the end. Those who at some point in their lives choose to depart from Jesus Christ and Him crucified to any form of works salvation—no matter how wise it may seem in man's eyes—are giving heed to the doctrines of demons (who all deny Christ's work and its complete sufficiency) and prove they have never known Him.

This is a very important subject. And I fear I have not done it justice. Too many people are caught between thinking that obedience to Christ means they are working for their salvation and those who think that they have to work to attain to that salvation. The truth is neither. I would like to have had more time to prayerfully compose and present a better exposition of this critical doctrine of our faith. But since you have raised it now I felt I had to answer now. I pray that—although fumblingly and poorly—I have given enough information that the Holy Spirit can use it to guide you into His truth. My last paragraph above summarizes it.

[Kris762]

No, in their minds, Christ was insufficient. They never fully trusted Christ's salvation. They just KNEW there had to be more to getting saved. And when the deceivers entered their midst and preached to them, they jumped at their demonic doctrines and denied Christ by trying to add works to faith. To them salvation became Christ AND ... something. Christ and celibacy. Christ and dietary laws. Christ and some act of denial. In other words, Christ and the efforts of the individual them self. They had never accepted that they could never make themselves acceptable to God. Thus they had never been saved. They may have given mental assent to Jesus in some fashion, but they had never recognized their hopelessness before God, their absolute inability to save themselves or to play any part in that salvation, and thus had never trusted in Christ alone for their salvation.

So, yes, they departed from the faith. But they departed because they had never had it in the first place. They superficially accepted it, but never believed it 100% in their heart. They professed it with their mouths so they could depart from it. Those who profess it in their hearts will never depart from it.

Crystal...thanks mate.

I guess to reinforce what you have taken alot of time to explain, is the matter of the heart for those who are truly saved. To be honest personally I fall at times, I find myself being one of the worst example's a Christian could be, but it never lasts...the feeling wells up inside at some stage and I claw my way back to God...I pray hard, ask forgiveness and strength and the armor of the Lord to help me through...it's a feeling of disappointment and guilt that I have let Jesus down after everything he gave for me. I never stray too far though, I know without doubt Jesus is my Lord and Savior and there will never come a time that I will be totally seperated from Him...it's impossible to even think of it.

It's difficult to put into words.

[mattfivefour]

And you "claw your way back to God" because God is calling you and making it possible for you to return. Remember the prodigal son.

"But when he (the prodigal son) came to his senses, he said, How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.' So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate." (Luke 15:17-24 NASB)

Jesus told this parable to show the father's love for the son, despite the son's grievous sins. The father represents the Father in Heaven, of course; the son represents us. Notice seven things in this short passage:

1. The son was repentant ... to the point of not, although being a son, asking for anything other than being allowed to be as a lowly servant. This proves he was truly repentant.
2. He decided to return to his father in submission. He took the first step.
3. The father saw him "while he was still a long way off." This shows he had been looking for him. God sees us in the same way ... as soon as we humble ourselves to return.
4. The father felt compassion for him. God's compassions for us are as a mother looking at her little baby. As Jeremiah said, "They fail not." In the Hebrew, literally, "They never come to an end."
5. The father ran to him. God doesn't wait for us to return. He sees our repentance and runs to us. Yes! God runs!
6. The father embraced him and kissed him. He demonstrated his love for him while he was yet a sinner and sorry for his sins. Exactly what our Heavenly Father does with us.
7. The father celebrated his return extravagantly and restored him to full sonship. God rejoices in the same way over us when we come to our senses and return from backsliding.

This parable is often glossed over, without the reader realizing the depths of the truth about God's love for us that it reveals. And that is a shame. Because if more Christians would fully realize how much God loves them, how tender His heart is toward them, how much He wants to gather them under His wing like a mother hen gathers her chicks, they would be more secure in their walk before Him, more loving in their relationship with Him, and far less likely to ever stray from Him.

I pray this helps you, bro.

[Kris762]

dont want to get all sentimental but it helps alot...thankyou Matt.

[Meg]

Crystal...thanks mate.

I guess to reinforce what you have taken alot of time to explain, is the matter of the heart for those who are truly saved. To be honest personally I fall at times, I find myself being one of the worst example's a Christian could be, but it never lasts...the feeling wells up inside at some stage and I claw my way back to God...I pray hard, ask forgiveness and strength and the armor of the Lord to help me through...it's a feeling of disappointment and guilt that I have let Jesus down after everything he gave for me. I never stray too far though, I know without doubt Jesus is my Lord and Savior and there will never come a time that I will be totally seperated from Him...it's impossible to even think of it.

It's difficult to put into words.

I have been known to say that if the devil cannot tempt you into sin, he will force or try to force you into sin, he doesn't care what works as long as it does work. But in the Christian, this does not work the way satan intends, because we recognize that there is a problem here, and we fight back. This is the learning curve of walking in the Lord, where we learn about the mistakes, challenges and struggles that drive us into the kind of prayer that reveals the Glory of God. It is utterly confusing, because when this is happening we feel like we're failing, but in fact. we're not!! This is because when we are in this sort of storm, we are learning about sin and learning about Grace! First we learn about sin by recognizing it in our lives, then we learn about Grace as the Lord leads us closer to Him, and in this process, we gain Godly wisdom which is truly profound. If you stay in the process and don't give up, you will begin to absolutely glow from within, because in this process, we learn things about genuine miracles in Christ. So be of strong heart and bold faith, Kris. You are center on the right track, growing in Christ exactly as you should be doing. Amen!! \o/ \o/ \o/

[Kris762]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So, Paul here is saying that they have partaken of the "Holy Spirit", so my understanding is to partake of the Spirit one must already be saved? But he then goes onto to say they cannot be renewed to repentance after they have fallen away, i'm confused...what Paul is stating here is pretty clear that saved people that had fallen away cannot return???

Sorry guys, I know I'm bugging you on this topic but I would really appreciate someones perspective on Pauls above statement. Everything was clear before but now I've come across this other statement from Paul.

[Kris762]

Thinking more about it, I guess "partaken" is not the same as "recieved", and "tasted" would not be the same as "eaten". So perhaps what Paul is saying is that those who fell were not really saved to begin with and only really dabbled and were not totally committed to the Word of God, they believed but not completely???

Would that be a correct interpretation?

[Kris762]

But that leaves me wondering why it was impossible for them to be renewed to repentance?

If I use myself as a study tool, I may slip or fall but in no way do I ever stop believing in Jesus Christ, so would the difference be that they totally after "partaking and tasting", reject Jesus hence why it's impossible for them to be renewed to repentance?

[Meg]

I use the NIV, which translates Hebrews 6:4-6 like this:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

To me, it sounds like this means the type of person in question has no desire to repent. Yhat was me between 1979 and 2003.

Hey Mattfivefour, can you help here?

[mattfivefour]

Brother, you like tough questions! This is a passage that has divided Bible expositors since it was written! Those who hew to the possibility that salvation may be lost, interpret it to mean exactly that. Those who hew to the belief that salvation—being solely due to Christ's work—can not be lost, argue their point as well.

Because doctrine cannot be based on a single scripture, or even on a multiplicity of scriptures, but must we drawn from ALL scripture on a subject, I have come to believe that salvation cannot be lost ... IF we truly had it in the first place ... the evidence for which is that we will persist in it, persevere in it, push forward in it until the end.

Thus how, then, to interpret this passage?

Well, we can begin by examining its context.

¹Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, ²Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. ³And this will we do, if God permit. ⁴For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, ⁵And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, ⁶If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ⁷For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: ⁸But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

⁹But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. ¹⁰For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. ¹¹And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: ¹²That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (Hebrews 6:1-11)

Prior to this point in this epistle, Paul has been explaining the superiority of Christ's priesthood over the earthly priesthood with its interminable offerings and rituals, its works according to the Law. He has demonstrated that there is no more need for any of this since, unlike an Aaronic priest who must continually offer sacrifices that cannot in any way remove but only temporarily cover sin, Christ has fulfilled everything in one great sacrifice, eternally efficacious and all-sufficient. In fact He is a priest after the order of Melchizedek (by translation King of righteousness who is also the King of Peace). This is a priesthood that is not of earthly descent nor appointment. Christ Himself, therefore, has provided the One sacrifice that God has accepted and now ministers on our behalf in Heaven a far more effective ministry, an eternal ministry, a permanently satisfying-to-God ministry, for us in Heaven. Based on that fundamental teaching—which he says is, in essence, baby food— Paul now says let us move on to real meat. But before he does so he issues a warning. A warning that if you reject the baby food, the fundamental truth of the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, then there is nothing left for you, no means of repentance, because by refusing the truth of the gospel you have refused the hope of salvation.

Paul is not speaking of true Christians here because a true Christian (as I stated in an earlier post in this thread) has full and complete trust in the Cross. He knows who Jesus is, knows that without Him he is lost, and knows that there is no hope of his doing anything at all to aid in his own salvation ... only accept that which Christ has done. His is not a head knowledge, which can be changed and worked around and distorted and altered. His is a heart knowledge fixed in Christ and confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

But is this not what this passage says the one who might fall is? I do not think so. Look at some of the key words.

"those who were once enlightened" ... Literally this says "those having been enlightened once ones." These are people who have been given light. I think it eisegesis to suggest that this means they have the light of God within them; rather it is simply an indication that they have been given the light of the gospel. It has been told to them. The participle is a passive not a middle, so it is something they played no part in. We can deduce therefore that these are people who knew the gospel of Jesus Christ because it was told them; but, I would suggest (as I will show) they knew it cognitively, not experientially.

"and have tasted of the heavenly gift" ... Literally says "having tasted of the heavenly gift ones." This does not necessarily say they have eaten of the Heavenly gift, but that they have "tasted" of it. In other words they have had a sample. As an analogy, I have seen unsaved people in a church service where the power of God was manifest in the worship, in the sermon, and in the altar call. I have seen them under such conviction. But they did not repent, they did not make a commitment to Christ. They were there. They tasted of the power of God, the presence of the Holy Spirit, but it did not penetrate their hearts. They tasted but did not eat of it.

"Ah, brother," I hear you say, "what about the next phrase: 'were made partakers of the Holy Ghost'? This just says they were partakers!" In English. Yes. But let us consider the language that Paul wrote in.

There are two words for partaker (or partner) in Greek: koinonos and metochos. The Greek word often translated "fellowship", "church" or "communion" is koinonia. It speaks of a deep, abiding communion or fellowship. A state of having everything in common. A real sharing. A real brotherhood. When Paul closes his second letter to the church at Corinth, his benediction reads "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14) The words "communion of the Holy Ghost" are koinonia tou hagios pneumatos. They are not metoche tou hagios pneumatos. Paul could have used metoche in the Corinthian benediction, but the Holy Spirit inspired him to use koinonia. That is because there is a difference in the idea of the words. Koinonia comes from a root that means "to have in common" and therefore stresses the fact that something is held in common between two or more subjects. It is a true and deep sharing. Metoche simply refers to the fact that something is shared; but does not imply any deep commonality between the subjects. It is more of a "superficial" sharing, if you will.

Therefore, it would appear that the Holy Spirit—by using metochos here in Hebrews 6:4 rather than the deeeper koinonia—was indicating that this "partaking" of the Holy Ghost was not a true sharing: that there was not a commonality between the apostatizing person and the Holy Spirit.

"And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" ... Again the word for "tatted" implies a tasting not a full feeding. I do not want to be dogmatic on this because the word allows for a wide variety of meaning, both literal and metaphorical. But while it could connote a real devouring, it can equally connote a mere tasting. The illustration for this word that I used earlier can stand here, as well. The fact is that by being in the midst of the assembly of believers they definitely tasted of God's Word and, indeed, of the power of God. But their hearts were not His.

"If they shall fall away" ... In the Greek this does not imply a possible condition, but a past fact. Literally it says "And having fallen away." It is in the aorist tense that describes a past action, and it is what is called an adjectival participle functioning as a noun: therefore it is actually calling these people "the having-fallen-away ones". The word is parapesontas from the verb pipto meaning "to fall from" and the preposition para meaning, in this grammatical construction, "close" or "by". In other words, these people were close, but they have fallen away from that closeness. Why? Because they had never truly laid hold of it: never fully trusted Christ alone for their salvation. And the proof is that if you truly trust Christ for your salvation you will not be looking for, nor even open to accepting, some other means of salvation. I ask you: if someone came up to you today and said Faith in Jesus Christ cannot save you. You need to believe in Jesus and also do ... something (whatever it may be) ... would you accept that? Would you then deny that Christ is all-sufficient and go to find the thing you must do to add to Christ's work so that you may be saved? If you are indeed saved, I can tell you your answer. You will say, "No way!"

I think that what we have discussed so far adequately explains who it is that this passage is speaking of. And the reason that it is "impossible ... to renew them again unto repentance" is because they "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Now understand that it is not their possibly repenting again that crucifies Christ all over again, that puts him to an open shame, but rather their denying Him in the first place. By believing that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient for their salvation, they have in effect and denied all of the prophecies His Word claims He fulfilled. This is exactly what the Sanhedrin and the chief priests did to Jesus in the first place: rejected Him as Messiah, and crucified Him as an unworthy criminal, someone whom they mocked and shamed in the most dreadful ways. They have believed rather the lie that they can do something to merit or earn salvation rather than the truth that Jesus alone could accomplish it. Anybody who has professed the truth but then completely and utterly rejects it can never, indeed, never be renewed to repentance and salvation because they have rejected the only means of salvation and the Holy Spirit will not therefore grant them repentance.

Now please understand —and this is crucial!— this is not speaking of Christians who have doubts about their salvation, or wander for a bit trying to please God through works, thinking not that they are saving themselves but rather that they are pleasing God by doing so. This is speaking ONLY of people who study the scriptures, listen to the Judaizing teachers, are convinced of the false message, and make the decision that Jesus Christ is NOT sufficient for their salvation. And by doing so they prove that they have never known Him ... or, rather, that He has never known them. Their ears are deaf to His voice; they do not know it.

And Paul goes through all of this before he gets into the meat of Hebrews because it is of critical importance that everybody grasps the importance of understanding wherein salvation lies (or rather in Whom it lies.) He wants people to fully engage themselves with the truth of the gospel, to not only grasp it with their minds but embrace it in their hearts. For it is with the heart that man truly believes. Once they take that truth into their innermost being and stand on it, they are safe from ever having their salvation lost because a) they—like you, brother or sister, who are reading this—will stand on the Gospel of Jesus Christ forever, even in the face of death; and b) Jesus has promised that He will never let us go and that none that the Father has given Him will be lost.

Paul confirms this by speaking of the fruit. Those who are truly born again are new creations in Christ. We are not the old us. We are good trees and will bring forth good fruit. Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit; neither can a bad tree bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:17-18; 12:33; Luke 6:43) So when Paul, speaking of those who may be in the visible church but who fall away says "but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned (Hebrews 6:8)" he is confirming that they were not good trees. And if they are not good trees now, then by Jesus’s own words that we just read, they never were.

I hope this helps.

[JoelH]

I have a second question I'd like to post here...

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit 1expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed ato deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 bspeaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience cseared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is 2sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now what does Paul mean here...Is he stating that those who departed from the faith were once saved? And then departed and as a consequence lost their salvation?

We don't know what their heart truly believes - only God does. And because it is God saving people (John 6, 10) that no one will perish by simply ceasing to believe.

If we look at professions of faith wise, I'm speaking from an Anglican, Baptist, non-denom Pentecostal perspectives - liberals exist among the rank of teachers among all three denominations. A common theme is they all grew up in an evangelical upbringing who at least formally affirmed the gospel. All the liberals, as a minister at my church [Anglican] told me, all claimed they "grew out of such silliness" at some point later on their lives. The point is, they might have professed the belief at one point, but if their faith is not gifted by God through the power of the Holy Spirit specifically drawing them to Him, the faith will not presevere.

I have met New Life (AOG) pastors who deny Jesus died to save people from hell, but rather people be prepared to live the most wonderful lives; I've met Baptist pastors who support gay marriage and deny Jesus is the exclusive way to God, and I have met Anglican clergy who believe likewise. Don't think it's just a problem for those "liturgical ritualist ecumenicals" - I've met liberals right out of churches normally considered as mainstream in the evangelical movement!

On the other hand, be rest assured that if a someone is indeed will be saved, he will definitely turn back before they die, for the election is unconditional. I recall the life of Chinese author Lin Yutang (1895-1976) Lin Yutang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . He was the son of a Christian minister, he rejected Christianity when he was an adult, but subsequenely returned to Christianity when he was 64.

At the end of the day, we can't judge someone heart whether he is truly renegerated. All we can do, if we see someone who walks away from the faith, if to preach the whole gospel of salvation and repentance as if they had never believed in the first place, and hope they may believe for the first time, or repent and return to the faith once delivered to all saints.

[Kris762]

Thankyou again Matt, sorry to make things difficult again brother, sometimes I think too much!

It's definately a hard one, I just wonder if we sometimes perhaps should accept it as we read it rather than attempt to justify our own beliefs by looking for things to support our own opinions. I'm still not sure on this one, thats obviously because I am not as well conversed with the Scriptures as some of you, more study and prayer in my own time is required undoubtedly. I do not disagree with you Matt, in fact I'm more inclined and leaning towards what you have explained as the reason behind Paul's comments. There are some who fall-away but not completely and some who fall-away and reject I guess.

I guess at the end of the day, it matters not as I am saved and will never let go of my belief and faith in Jesus Christ, he lives in me and although I fall I'll never "REJECT", that would be nothing other than complete suicide and it's something I could never entertain, the thought of eternal seperation from my Savior is indescribable...it means nothing to live for, everything lost, it means death...a scary thought!

I remember reading a part of the OT that stated there is no returning to Salvation for those who have comitted a certain sin...it was something about leading others astray and denying the Holy Spirit in the process? I'm sure it was whilst they were in the wilderness or Sinai? I cant seem to find it again!

Jesus also mentions it in the NT...

Mark 3.22-30
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "by the prince of demons he casts out the demons." And he called them to him and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

"Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—for they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

Perhaps Paul was directing his statement at those who had comitted such a sin as Jesus explained above...complete and utter denial or rejection of Jesus. It's difficult to understand how people could deny or reject after being made aware or even tasting or partaking of the Holy Spirit, what fools they are...no words to describe it really, how could they not believe especially after being exposed to it!!

[Kris762]

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, bcounted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,

And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith;

But if anyone draws back,

My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I'll attempt to interpret the above myself, if I'm incorrect in any aspect please feel free to correct and educate me...

In brief, what I assume Paul is saying here is for the "unbelievers" who have heard and know the Word which most of the worlds population has, but choose to ignore it and carry on with their daily lives refusing to acknowledge the truth of what they heard regarding our Lord Jesus Christ, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins for them (they have rejected the opportunity). The fact that Paul has said that they have "recieved the knowledge of the truth" and not "received Salvation" leads me to think they were aware of the Word but not yet Saved.

So, essentially they could be half hearted Christians with no commitment to God, nor to His Word? People much like today who attend a Church but their hearts are empty, void of the Spririt of Christ, they have no Faith and are I guess Spiritless?

Ok the last part "perdition"...

per·di·tion
[per-dish-uhn] Show IPA

1. a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.
2. the future state of the wicked.
3. hell ( def. 1 ) .
4. utter destruction or ruin.
5. Obsolete . loss.

perdition (pəˈdɪʃən)

1.Christianity
a.final and irrevocable spiritual ruin
b.this state as one that the wicked are said to be destined to endure for ever
2. another word for hell
3. archaic utter disaster, ruin, or destruction

Perdition or no small matter after looking at the meaning of the term, Paul is indicating that the people he was/is referring to are in that state of perdition...they are not back-sliders or people who have fallen or just weakened, they are real hard-core deniers and rejectors of Christs Word...otherwise how else could they fit the interpretation of perdition?

In summary, they are people who heard the Word but paid no heed, were un-saved, refused to believe or repent, happy to continue on in sin without remorse, and deniers or rejectors of Christ...they clearly are not "saved" people who have just fallen or back-slidden, these people had no Salvation to lose.

How did I go with my interpretation...any points, can someone critique me please?

[Kris762]

I think I've just answered or worked out the answers to my own questions after 2 days of frustration and annoying others for the answers, sorry Matt...but hey you got me on the right path, I owe you one Bro .. boy parts of the Bible can certainly be difficult to interpret, it causes or instigates very deep thinking and analyisis or figuring out!

Most of It I didnt have a problem with but since beginning to read parts of Pauls message, it's become hard work!! At times I really need to read over and over and one simple word can make a major difference in how Pauls message is interpreted.

[Kris762]

Depravity of False Teachers

12 But these, ilike natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Deceptions of False Teachers

For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who 9have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are sagain entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For tit would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


I thought the above verses explain also to some degree who Paul was referring to...e.g. false teachers.

[mattfivefour]

Yes, in part. False teachers are definitely the target. But those who follow them will share their fate.

[LivnForChrist]

Great thread. Thanks for your questions Kris and thank you very much for your answers Adrian.

[IamPJ]

I agree, great thread! Matt, you answered the same questions I have had regarding these verses. Thanks for explaining them so well!!!