What Luke 13:6-9 means !!

[dan p]

Hi to all , and many believers refuse to believe that the Nation of Israel was set aside , and Jesus and the Father say , that will happen .

Jesus spoke in parables to the Nation of Israel Only and not to the Body of Christ .

In Luke 13:6-9 is where Israel is the Parable .

Verse 6 , A certain man ( he speaks of the FATHER ) had a Fig Tree planted in His vineyard , and He the FATHER , came and sought FRUIT thereon , and found none .

In Other words Israel was not producing fuit that God was hoping to find , but were seeking there own Righeousness .

Then the ( FATHER ) said unto the Dresser ( which is Jesus ) of His vineyard , Behold , these 3 years ( which is 3 years into Jesus earthlt ministry ) I come on this Fig Tree ( which is Israel ) and find none , cut it down , why cumbereth it the ground , or just take up space in My vineyard .


Verse 7 , And He answering ( which is Jesus ) said unto to Him , LORD ( speaks to the FATHER ) , let it alone this years also ( which will extend Jesus earthly ministry to 4 years ) till I shall dig around , and Fertize .


Verse 9 , And if it bear fruit well , and if not , then after that Thou ( the FATHER ) shalt cut it down .

Matt 3:10 also talks about the Axe bveing laid and the Nation of Israel was taken from the Nation of Israel and given to the " little flock " which speaks of the 12 Apostles .

Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28 !

God will not deal with Israel " until the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " Rom 11:25 !

dan p

[mattfivefour]

Dan, please look carefully at the wording of Romans 11:25. The KJV reads: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Now let's look at that carefully, examining the words.

To begin, please bear with me for a second while I give you the original koiné Greek, because this is crucial to the proper rendering of this passage.

In the original it reads: Οὐ [Not] γὰρ [indeed] θέλω [do I wish (or desire, or want)] ὑμᾶς [you] ἀγνοεῖν [to be ignorant (or, without knowledge)] ἀδελφοί [brothers] τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο [the mystery this], ἵνα [that] μὴ [not] ἦτε [you might be] παῤ ἑαυτοῖς [to yourselves] φρόνιμοι [be mindful (or wise)]: ὅτι [that] πώρωσις [hardening (or callousness)] ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ [from a part of Israel] γέγονεν[it has happened] ἄχρις [until] οὗ [that] τὸ πλήρωμα [the fullness (ie: of the number)] τῶν ἐθνῶν [of the nations (or Gentiles)] εἰσέλθῃ [it may be come in]. I have underlined the relevant phrase— ἀπὸ μέρους (apo merous) which means "in part". The KJV translation is somewhat ambiguous and is often interpreted to mean that there has been "a partial hardening" of Israel. But that is not correct, as we can see in the original Greek. Grammatically, apo merous is an adverbial phrase modifying the verb "has happened". Therefore the proper rendering is not that there has been a partial hardening has happened to Israel but that the hardening has happened over part of Israel. There is a big difference in the two. The NLT paraphrase captures the correct meaning: "Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ."

Do you see? It is not that all of Israel is blind, but that some in Israel are blind. (Otherwise there would have been no Church!) This is very important in that it mitigates against any understanding that God is not dealing with Jews at this point. It is true that He is not dealing with Israel as a nation during this dispensation; but he certainly is calling Jews into the Church. You cannot separate them. Jews and Gentiles are being made into one new man, one new people— the Church of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:14-15, and Colossians 3:11 make this very clear.

I grasp from your various posts in a few different threads what the teaching is you are trying to share here. But I must tell you it is wrong. Repeatedly I have shown you that words you think mean one thing mean something different. But rather than deal word for word with those things I have pointed out, you ignore the points made and instead throw in other scriptures, often equally incorrectly divided, and continue your argument. This concerns me. It is one thing to ask questions about a doctrine or a passage of scripture and to hold an understanding up to review by the counsel of others in the body. But to present an agenda and not to deal with the very real objections raised to it by those whom God has called as pastors and teachers and who lend their time to RF as a service to the God who has called them is to manifest what to many seems an unteachable spirit. I am not trying to be offensive here, brother; but we have members here who are pastors of born again, spirit-filled churches who are on fire for God and others who, while not pulpit pastors, are nonetheless called to preach and teach. And all are concerned about the understanding you are trying to teach and your determination to press ahead without sitting back and examining your beliefs in the light of the scripture shared with you. We have not merely quoted verses which is often how erroneous doctrines are supported, but have explained the meanings of the words God Himself used.

We are not trying to win arguments with you, Dan. Rather, we love you in Christ and are concerned for you.

Please take this all before Almighty God and ask His Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the meanings; then carefully examine what has already been shared with you in numerous posts. If you think an interpretation is wrong, then contend for your point by giving specific reasons rooted in the very words God Himself gave. Otherwise, you appear determined to ignore any points raised against your belief. If so, you are leading yourself down a wrong path. And (I say this with the greatest gentleness in my heart) you will not be allowed to so lead others here.

[dan p]

Dan, please look carefully at the wording of Romans 11:25. The KJV reads: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Now let's look at that carefully, examining the words.

To begin, please bear with me for a second while I give you the original koiné Greek, because this is crucial to the proper rendering of this passage.

In the original it reads: Οὐ [Not] γὰρ [indeed] θέλω [do I wish (or desire, or want)] ὑμᾶς [you] ἀγνοεῖν [to be ignorant (or, without knowledge)] ἀδελφοί [brothers] τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο [the mystery this], ἵνα [that] μὴ [not] ἦτε [you might be] παῤ ἑαυτοῖς [to yourselves] φρόνιμοι [be mindful (or wise)]: ὅτι [that] πώρωσις [hardening (or callousness)] ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ [from a part of Israel] γέγονεν[it has happened] ἄχρις [until] οὗ [that] τὸ πλήρωμα [the fullness (ie: of the number)] τῶν ἐθνῶν [of the nations (or Gentiles)] εἰσέλθῃ [it may be come in]. I have underlined the relevant phrase— ἀπὸ μέρους (apo merous) which means "in part". The KJV translation is somewhat ambiguous and is often interpreted to mean that there has been "a partial hardening" of Israel. But that is not correct, as we can see in the original Greek. Grammatically, apo merous is an adverbial phrase modifying the verb "has happened". Therefore the proper rendering is not that there has been a partial hardening has happened to Israel but that the hardening has happened over part of Israel. There is a big difference in the two. The NLT paraphrase captures the correct meaning: "Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ."

Do you see? It is not that all of Israel is blind, but that some in Israel are blind. (Otherwise there would have been no Church!) This is very important in that it mitigates against any understanding that God is not dealing with Jews at this point. It is true that He is not dealing with Israel as a nation during this dispensation; but he certainly is calling Jews into the Church. You cannot separate them. Jews and Gentiles are being made into one new man, one new people— the Church of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Ephesians 2:14-15, and Colossians 3:11 make this very clear.

I grasp from your various posts in a few different threads what the teaching is you are trying to share here. But I must tell you it is wrong. Repeatedly I have shown you that words you think mean one thing mean something different. But rather than deal word for word with those things I have pointed out, you ignore the points made and instead throw in other scriptures, often equally incorrectly divided, and continue your argument. This concerns me. It is one thing to ask questions about a doctrine or a passage of scripture and to hold an understanding up to review by the counsel of others in the body. But to present an agenda and not to deal with the very real objections raised to it by those whom God has called as pastors and teachers and who lend their time to RF as a service to the God who has called them is to manifest what to many seems an unteachable spirit. I am not trying to be offensive here, brother; but we have members here who are pastors of born again, spirit-filled churches who are on fire for God and others who, while not pulpit pastors, are nonetheless called to preach and teach. And all are concerned about the understanding you are trying to teach and your determination to press ahead without sitting back and examining your beliefs in the light of the scripture shared with you. We have not merely quoted verses which is often how erroneous doctrines are supported, but have explained the meanings of the words God Himself used.

We are not trying to win arguments with you, Dan. Rather, we love you in Christ and are concerned for you.

Please take this all before Almighty God and ask His Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the meanings; then carefully examine what has already been shared with you in numerous posts. If you think an interpretation is wrong, then contend for your point by giving specific reasons rooted in the very words God Himself gave. Otherwise, you appear determined to ignore any points raised against your belief. If so, you are leading yourself down a wrong path. And (I say this with the greatest gentleness in my heart) you will not be allowed to so lead others here.

Hi , and for your concern , and I am dispensational , per-tri amd per-mil . I see Rom 11:25 as a temporary blindness of Israel , until the completion of the Body of Christ and the Dearture/Rapture .

Then God will again deal with Israel in the Tribulation and the Millennium .

You say I will not be allowed to to lead others, while just want to present what I feel is rightly dividing the word of truth .

It looks kile you feel that I am roching your boat and you will protect all from Pauline Dispensationalism and it is sad I see that you eventually ban me and with the grearest gentleness you can not allow a difference of Intreperation .

You then you believe that what I wrote on Luke 13 , is wrong or Heresy or you object Israel was only partially set aside ??

If you will not let me write , just tell me to leave !! dan p

[mattfivefour]

Hi , and for your concern , and I am dispensational , per-tri amd per-mil . I see Rom 11:25 as a temporary blindness of Israel , until the completion of the Body of Christ and the Dearture/Rapture .

Then God will again deal with Israel in the Tribulation and the Millennium .

You say I will not be allowed to to lead others, while just want to present what I feel is rightly dividing the word of truth .

It looks kile you feel that I am roching your boat and you will protect all from Pauline Dispensationalism and it is sad I see that you eventually ban me and with the grearest gentleness you can not allow a difference of Intreperation .

You then you believe that what I wrote on Luke 13 , is wrong or Heresy or you object Israel was only partially set aside ??

If you will not let me write , just tell me to leave !! dan p

Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes? We agree with Pauline Dispensationalism in the sense that it is the dispensationalism that God revealed to us through the writings of Paul. But we have to recognize that Scripture clearly demonstrates that the effects of the current dispensation under which we live relate only to Israel as a nation, not individual descendants of Abraham. God has allowed the nation Israel to be blinded, yes ... but not all of its members. This is not what you appeared to be saying. However, that might be a failure of both of us to communicate effectively. So, if what you were trying to say agrees with what I have tried to say here, then we have no disagreement.

Where we definitely DO have a disagreement is in your attempts to show that the current dispensation did not begin until Paul was saved. No! Scripture plainly teaches states that the current Dispensation of Grace began at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. Paul merely was given the word of revealing various aspects of God's plan, including the fact we were now in a new dispensation. By writing it he did not initiate it, he merely revealed it.

I hope this helps.

[dan p]

Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes? We agree with Pauline Dispensationalism in the sense that it is the dispensationalism that God revealed to us through the writings of Paul. But we have to recognize that Scripture clearly demonstrates that the effects of the current dispensation under which we live relate only to Israel as a nation, not individual descendants of Abraham. God has allowed the nation Israel to be blinded, yes ... but not all of its members. This is not what you appeared to be saying. However, that might be a failure of both of us to communicate effectively. So, if what you were trying to say agrees with what I have tried to say here, then we have no disagreement.

Where we definitely DO have a disagreement is in your attempts to show that the current dispensation did not begin until Paul was saved. No! Scripture plainly teaches states that the current Dispensation of Grace began at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. Paul merely was given the word of revealing various aspects of God's plan, including the fact we were now in a new dispensation. By writing it he did not initiate it, he merely revealed it.

I hope this helps.

Hi , and this is getting out of the OP , but there are many postion that aree held by Dispensational .

And they say that the Body of Christ began ;

#1 , At the Garden , by Covenant Theology .

#2 , Began at Acts 2 , in the Prophetic program with Israel

#3 , Began at Acts 9 , with the salvation of Paul

#4 , Began at Acts 13 , with Paul first missionary journey

#5 , It began in Acts 28 , which is Hyper-dispensationalism and begin the Body in Ephesians

By the way there are some that hold to an Acts 11 beginning by one called Art Simms in FL.

Most Pauline Dispensationalist , begin the Body in Acts , and do not consider Acts 2 as the biginning , because Acts 2 is a Jewish Feast day , Pentecost , and another reason is because most of Acts is all Jewish , and because Pentecost was a Prophsied in Joel 2 and the Mystery was HID , Col 1:25and 26 !!

Please notice that after Acts 15 , Peter fades from the scene and it is all James in Acts 21:20 and they are still Law Keepers , and no one can escaped that conclusion , that until the end of Acts , all were still Law of Moses keepers.

I know personally , dispensationalist that say that Paul was saved by the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom and when I ask for a verse , they do not have a verse ,
How I overcome that postion is IF Paul was saved by the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom , and THEN show a verse WHERE Paul was Converted to Grace , and no verse can be produced .

I can produce more verse which prove that the Body of Christ began with Paul and not with the 12 apostles , and if you say in Acts , then the 12 Apostles began the Body of Christ and where is a verse for that ?

dan p

[mattfivefour]

None of the people you refer to as having varying dispensationalist beliefs is correct ... respectfully including you. The Church (the body of Christ) began on the Day of Pentecost. The fact that it was JEwish fesitval is important when you examine God's dealins with man, but is irrelevant to whether the Church couldhave started on that day or not. The fact is it DID. And Acts 2:41 confirms that "Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all." What did Peter preach? That Jesus was the Christ. And by believing in this the Jews were "added to the Church". They were not added to the "church" of the Jews, since they were already Jews. They were added to the Church of Jesus Christ. And to specify this, Peter said, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles—all who have been called by the Lord our God.” (Acts 2:38-39)

Ephesians 2:11-22 makes it all clear and totally undercuts your thesis.

"11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 'And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near.' (Paul quoting from Isaiah 57:19); 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." —Ephesians 2:11-12 NASB

There is no way in reading this passage alone that it could escape anyone's attention that God is very clearly saying there is no division between Jews who believe and Gentiles who believe. God makes that further clear in Romans 9. God's dealing with Israel as a nation is set aside so that ALL who believe in Christ may be saved and thus enter into the one Body, the Church. And he lets us know in Romans 11 that this setting aside is to nation Israel, not to the Jews individually, so that the nations of the world may come to Christ. God's Grace is to all men. And once the Dispensation of Grace is ended, God will again turn his attention back to nation Israel "to whom the belong the promises."

You keep saying to show you scripture. We do, and you ignore it. You quote a verse here and a verse there. We quote you verses in the context in which they are written and in the context of the whole Word of God. You have a lot of men, preachers and teachers called of God, who are trying to share the correct division of His Word with you and showing you where you are wrong. This is not an attack on you or an attempt to keep anyone from learning. It is a loving effort to get you focused on the right track, upon which God can show you many things.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Ive read Acts two or three times and nowhere do I find it states
that Israel is said to be set aside in Acts 28:28


I do find some things of interests stated and find Paul was in Rome ,and when Paul states in vs 17 "and when they were come together ,he said unto them , Men and Brethren . Now back up and read above you what is written in verse 15
"And from thence when the brethren heard of us they came to meet us as far as Appii forum and the three Taverns . Whom when Paul saw he thanked God and took courage

Do you notice the account seems to indicate the brethren of 15 had no connection to the Jewish leaders .

why else would Paul of Thanked God ?

In the above verses from 15 you read where Paul found brethren also

Apparently it was just some of the Jewish leaders who knew nothing of Paul
speaking of Rome

some believed what Paul spoke some believed not
verse 24

the next line is interesting
"""After that Paul had spoken one word , well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers """

so what was it that well spoke the Holy Spirit ?

Dan P read what is written

Isaiah 6:9 ... And he said Go and tell this people hear ye indeed but understand not and see ye indeed but perceive not

The command was TO GO and TELL that was the command given .

why would the command be to go and tell to a people set aside ?


Now there is other scripture that also speaks of what is being said regarding "well spoke the Holy Spirit "
read also Matthew 13:14 """And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah

This is quoted in one form or the other some seven times in the New Testament

If you read on you discover Paul stayed a while 2 whole years actually and received all who came in unto him

the promise is to those who will come those who will receive

Acts 2:41 is a confirmation just as brother Matt has stated

[Elijah's Mantle]

you know if you take the time to search it out and read all seven accounts of well spoke the Holy spirit you might just find out that the emphasis is on people and not on God
God desires "ALL" ALL" ....meaning literally "ALL to see and hear


Lo
there is a moral to the story if you read them all seven



let it speak to you
go and read them

[Elijah's Mantle]

what does Luke 8:10 .......... say unto you ?

take notice your told and he said unto you ...........
it is GIVEN TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES



Also Read John 12:40-42

NEVERTHELESS
among the chief rulers ""MANY" believed on him

what was the ""things" said Isaiah ? when he saw his Glory and spoke of him

[Robert]

None of the people you refer to as having varying dispensationalist beliefs is correct ... respectfully including you. The Church (the body of Christ) began on the Day of Pentecost. The fact that it was JEwish fesitval is important when you examine God's dealins with man, but is irrelevant to whether the Church couldhave started on that day or not. The fact is it DID. And Acts 2:41 confirms that "Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all." What did Peter preach? That Jesus was the Christ. And by believing in this the Jews were "added to the Church". They were not added to the "church" of the Jews, since they were already Jews. They were added to the Church of Jesus Christ. And to specify this, Peter said, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles—all who have been called by the Lord our God.” (Acts 2:38-39)

Ephesians 2:11-22 makes it all clear and totally undercuts your thesis.

"11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 'And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near.' (Paul quoting from Isaiah 57:19); 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." —Ephesians 2:11-12 NASB

There is no way in reading this passage alone that it could escape anyone's attention that God is very clearly saying there is no division between Jews who believe and Gentiles who believe. God makes that further clear in Romans 9. God's dealing with Israel as a nation is set aside so that ALL who believe in Christ may be saved and thus enter into the one Body, the Church. And he lets us know in Romans 11 that this setting aside is to nation Israel, not to the Jews individually, so that the nations of the world may come to Christ. God's Grace is to all men. And once the Dispensation of Grace is ended, God will again turn his attention back to nation Israel "to whom the belong the promises."

You keep saying to show you scripture. We do, and you ignore it. You quote a verse here and a verse there. We quote you verses in the context in which they are written and in the context of the whole Word of God. You have a lot of men, preachers and teachers called of God, who are trying to share the correct division of His Word with you and showing you where you are wrong. This is not an attack on you or an attempt to keep anyone from learning. It is a loving effort to get you focused on the right track, upon which God can show you many things.

Exactly, Adrian. In reading both Romans and Galatians, it is clear that Paul was saved the same way that every other believer was, and that the setting aside of Israel was not the setting aside of those who would believe, Jew or otherwise. In fact, the whole books of Romans and Galatians testifies to this fact. Doing in-depth, prayerful studies on these books reveals that fact. Saying Paul was saved any other way than grace is trying to read what one wants into scripture rather than allowing scripture to speak and accepting it as God's word.

And that is "eisegesis".

Dan p: I quoted to you entire chapters of scripture, and you never replied to it. I'm sorry that you see this differently than we do, but scripture is crystal clear on this issue. You cannot take piecemeal verses from whatever book of scripture you like and put them together to say what you wish them to say; they have to be couched in the passages in which they are intended or the context can be twisted any way one likes.

[livin_in_the_Son]

Dan P, the only question I have is this...why do you start all your posts with 'hi to all, and'...like every new thread is a continuation of one single conversation?

[Elijah's Mantle]

""""ROBERT"" right on brother

As a matter of fact one must read the whole of what Romans states and rightly divide

some 1,600 years before Paul's day Moses prophesied the accepted of the Gospel by the Gentiles

when you read """for to provoke them to Jealousy goes all the way back to the Prophecy of Noah actually after the flood

"""GOD SHALL" enlarge Japheth (Gentiles) and he shall dwell in the tents of SHEM .. (ISRAEL)

Japheth shall receive the Blessing intended for shem
Gen 9:26-27

go on back to Romans 10:20 and read exactly what it was Isaiah was bold about

now read Romans 11:2
""GOD HAS NOT CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE WHICH HE FOREKNEW

this refers to Israel yes as a Nation and the many many promises made about the future also

read Romans 11:2 its there you find they are NOT cast away
not at all

[BuzzardHut]

Israel is back! - 1948
the Bride of Christ is leaving! pretrib Rapture
the tribulation is coming!
and Jehovah will be back in town!!

[GlennO]

Buzz said:

Israel is back! - 1948
the Bride of Christ is leaving! pretrib Rapture
the tribulation is coming!
and Jehovah will be back in town!!

Matt -
You have much in common with Job my Brother!