The Torah of Judaism

[rae_ekaf]

In the religion of Judaism much is made that Judaism follows the Torah in line with what many call the basis of the religion of Judeo-Christianity. A question arises. Which Torah is followed in Judaism - is Judaism true to the Torah SheBichtav or to the Torah SheBeal Peh? Any analysis and comment on this question would be greatly appreciated.

[mattfivefour]

Well, the Jews cannot even agree on this! It depends on the local religious tradition these days, it would seem, and the sect you belong to. But a modern Jew will tell you that Torah is both SheBichTav and Shebeal Peh. They are wrong.

The fact is that the Torah SheBichtav is the written law. It is what God gave to Moses. The Torah Shebeal Peh is the oral rabbinic tradition interpreting and expanding on the written Torah. And that is exactly how Israel wound up so far from the truth of God's Word as originally delivered, and why Jesus had constantly to turn them back to the truth from their tradition. Man's wisdom will never attain to God's. We are better to take His Word as written than trying to develop our own laws and meanings from it.

In any case, it is irrelevant for Christians who have the law written on their hearts. We live by and in grace and are garadullay being shaped by the Holy SPirit into the image of Christ that was planted within us at the moment of our new birth.

[dave-o]

The Torah Shebeal Peh is the oral rabbinic tradition interpreting and expanding on the written Torah.

Jesus did this too and on His own authority. Only instead of expanding He summed the whole of the Law all up quite nicely:

Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

This is where the so-called Judeo-Christian "religion" begins to go in two different directions.

[mattfivefour]

I don't know, dave-o. After all, it was the Jewish legal expert with whom Jesus was speaking who fully agreed with what Jesus said. So, respectfully, I do not think that is where the two diverged. Where the way of Jesus separated from the Judaism of the priests and rabbis was initially over Jesus's attacks on the rabbinic additions to the law and then over His claim to be Messiah and, indeed, God.

[dave-o]

I don't know, dave-o. After all, it was the Jewish legal expert with whom Jesus was speaking who fully agreed with what Jesus said. So, respectfully, I do not think that is where the two diverged. Where the way of Jesus separated from the Judaism of the priests and rabbis was initially over Jesus's attacks on the rabbinic additions to the law and then over His claim to be Messiah and, indeed, God.

I meant that more along the lines of explaining why I need feel no guilt whatsoever going to Famous Dave's for a rack of delicious BBQ ribs!

[mattfivefour]

I meant that more along the lines of explaining why I need feel no guilt whatsoever going to Famous Dave's for a rack of delicious BBQ ribs!

[mikhen7]

I think it is expedient to expound a little upon what Matt said by posting an AWESOME passage of God's Holy Word:

¹ Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,
² "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
³ He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
⁴ For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
⁵ But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
⁶ then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
⁷ Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
⁸ 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
⁹ And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
¹⁰ When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand:
¹¹ Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
¹² Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"
¹³ But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
¹⁴ Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
¹⁵ Then Peter answered and said to Him, "Explain this parable to us."
¹⁶ So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
¹⁷ Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
¹⁸ But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
¹⁹ For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
²⁰ These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

That was what helped to turn the tide and Jesus, in reply to the "offensiveness" of His pointed rebuke, simply told the disciples, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Jesus knew that if the Jewish people had kept to just the "Written Law" the Torah SheBichtav, then God's witness to the world would have shined with the brightness God intended.

As an aside, If Christ could openly rebuke such highly respected religious leaders in the manner He did, and that without second thought, I believe sincerely that we should also seriously consider the impact on others our interpretation and application of Scripture can have to them and to God.

God Bless

[mikhen7]

I meant that more along the lines of explaining why I need feel no guilt whatsoever going to Famous Dave's for a rack of delicious BBQ ribs!

Please , if I may and you are willing, would it be possible for me to taste just one of those ribs? remember "...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table. Disclaimer to God: No misrepresentation of Scripture intended!

[mattfivefour]

Please , if I may and you are willing, would it be possible for me to taste just one of those ribs? remember "...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table. Disclaimer to God: No misrepresentation of Scripture intended!

[dave-o]

Please , if I may and you are willing, would it be possible for me to taste just one of those ribs? remember "...even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table. Disclaimer to God: No misrepresentation of Scripture intended!

Sorry, but I have not the strength to resist eating the whole thing.

[dave-o]

In all seriousness though, the person who started this thread (judging by their past posts) *seems* to have an unstated agenda. They were asking about the so-called Judeo-Christian religion as in "a stated set of rules/laws/morals to live one's life by". In which case Christianity is nothing at all like Judaism with the exception that Christians still recognize the Ten Commandments as defining right and wrong but do NOT follow any version of the Torah trying to punish those that break a commandment. We recognize that:

John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

[mattfivefour]

Yes, I have entertained the same reservations from the very beginning. But we'll see. God is not mocked. If somebody thinks they are fooling with us, we are the least of their problems. Our job is merely to answer as people ask and love as He asked.

[rae_ekaf]

dave-o writes that: "Christians still recognize the Ten Commandments as defining right and wrong but do NOT follow any version of the Torah"

The Torah, in its original sense, is the first five books of the Scriptures - the Word of God. That's news to me that Christians do not follow the scriptures.

In Hebrews 5:9 it is written: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

My question concerning this is how can one obey Him if they know not His commands and refuse to hear His word? Note that in the above verse it makes perfectly clear that he is the author of eternal salvation to ALL. Not some, not just so and so, but to ALL that obey Him.


Also matt writes that:

But a modern Jew will tell you that Torah is both SheBichTav and Shebeal Peh.

I am somewhat baffled by matt's use of the adjective modern in the above sentence as i am also somewhat baffled by this statement in juxtaposition with a couple of bible verses, to wit:

Matthew 6:24 *No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

and

Luke 16:13 *No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[mattfivefour]

To your first point, you are making the mistake of trying to use one verse to make a point. You need to bring ALL relevant verses to bear on a topic. It is not only Hebrews 5:9 (all who obey), but also all who receive Him (John 1:12); all who believe in Him (John 3:18; 1 John 5:13); and all who have true faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:26). So the "all" opens salvation to everybody who has, does, or ever will live; but the "who ..." narrows it to those among all those who live who are willing to die to self and accept Jesus Christ as who He said He is and trust Him for their salvation.

As to your second point, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I say "modern" because I have no idea what a Jew of two thousand years or so ago would have said. The perspective of the average Jew today may be quite different from that of the average Jew in antiquity (though I think it certain that the Pharisees, based on their writings and on what the bible says, accepted Torah Shebeal Peh as equal to Torah SheBichTav. But what at all does the rest of what you wrote ("I am somewhat baffled by matt's use of the adjective modern in the above sentence as i am also somewhat baffled by this statement in juxtaposition with a couple of bible verses, to wit: Matthew 6:24 'No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.' and Luke 16:13 'No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.'") What on earth do these verses have to do with the basis of your comment (my use of the term "modern Jew")?

[mikhen7]

To your first point, you are making the mistake of trying to use one verse to make a point. You need to bring ALL relevant verses to bear on a topic. It is not only Hebrews 5:9 (all who obey), but also all who receive Him (John 1:12); all who believe in Him (John 3:18; 1 John 5:13); and all who have true faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:26). So the "all" opens salvation to everybody who has, does, or ever will live; but the "who ..." narrows it to those among all those who live who are willing to die to self and accept Jesus Christ as who He said He is and trust Him for their salvation.

As to your second point, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I say "modern" because I have no idea what a Jew of two thousand years or so ago would have said. The perspective of the average Jew today may be quite different from that of the average Jew in antiquity (though I think it certain that the Pharisees, based on their writings and on what the bible says, accepted Torah Shebeal Peh as equal to Torah SheBichTav. But what at all does the rest of what you wrote ("I am somewhat baffled by matt's use of the adjective modern in the above sentence as i am also somewhat baffled by this statement in juxtaposition with a couple of bible verses, to wit: Matthew 6:24 'No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.' and Luke 16:13 'No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.'") What on earth do these verses have to do with the basis of your comment (my use of the term "modern Jew")?

Good point Matt. What rae_ekaf is trying to express makes little sense unless possibly you take his other points into consideration. If he feels ALL people will be saved who obey, possible the Torah, and your statement about "modern Jews" and SheBichTav and Shebeal Peh, then the statements by Jesus about not serving two masters may be confusing to him. Maybe he believes that it is ok to follow SheBichTav and Shebeal Peh at the same time???? Maybe he thinks modern Jews are Christians? Modern Jews, unless they are saved by Christ-then Christian, do not subject themselves to the Words of Christ, so what Jesus taught is meaningless to them.

God Bless

[rae_ekaf]

John 8:51 *Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

1John
2 *And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 *¶And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 *He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 3:36 *He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


i believe what the bible says, not what you feel i may think. I read the King James Version. Now let us get back to the original direction of this thread. I will re-post the top of this thread and hope other readers in this forum will reply with some deeper thought and research into the question.


In the religion of Judaism much is made that Judaism follows the Torah in line with what many call the basis of the religion of Judeo-Christianity. A question arises. Which Torah is followed in Judaism - is Judaism true to the Torah SheBichtav or to the Torah SheBeal Peh? Any analysis and comment on this question would be greatly appreciated.

[mattfivefour]

Your initial questions makes no sense. Jews do not follow "the religion of Judeo-Christianity". They follow Judaism. I have been prepared to give you some leeway here on the chance that you are a new christian with absolutely no bible teaching or an unsaved person who is trying to understood the Bible by means of their own intellect. The Bible says it can only be spiritually discerned. . Many people here told me they thought you were a troll. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Besides, if you are a troll you have to be the world's worst one. We usually get some prettty good ones here. But your posts are very weak. Anyway, I note that your IP address is blacklisted with some major international reporting agencies. So, respectfully, enough is enough. I hope you find another forum more in line with yourself.

Good bye.

[dave-o]

dave-o writes that: "Christians still recognize the Ten Commandments as defining right and wrong but do NOT follow any version of the Torah"

The Torah, in its original sense, is the first five books of the Scriptures - the Word of God. That's news to me that Christians do not follow the scriptures.

They do have a purpose for Christians

Romans 15:4
For whatever things were written before [i.e, the Old Testament] were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

But we have no need to memorize and follow all 613 rules and regulations outlined in the Torah. They were always for Jews only.

In Hebrews 5:9 it is written: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

My question concerning this is how can one obey Him if they know not His commands and refuse to hear His word? Note that in the above verse it makes perfectly clear that he is the author of eternal salvation to ALL. Not some, not just so and so, but to ALL that obey Him.

We do know the law:

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

And Christ's commandment

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Following the Torah is not for Christians. As Peter put it:

Acts 15:5, 10
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
[...]
10Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples [i.e. the laws of the Torah] which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

By trying to mix the laws of the Torah with Christianity you're trying to mix the Law with Grace by faith alone. It doesn't work any better than trying to mix oil and water. Can't be done and a waste of time to try.

[mattfivefour]

Dave, I do not think rae-ekaf will be able to read your post since he/she is now banned permanently. I think four mojnths of putting up with their nonsensical troll-like posts is sufficient. But your post above is right on target. I pray it helps someone else reading here.

[dave-o]

Dave, I do not think rae-ekaf will be able to read your post since he/she is now banned permanently. I think four mojnths of putting up with their nonsensical troll-like posts is sufficient. But your post above is right on target. I pray it helps someone else reading here.

That's a shame. Blacklisted? Perhaps he was a Muslim??

I don't know but it sure seemed like he was trying to build a case to justify condemning the Bible (and the Old Testament specifically) as evil or something.

Oh well. Many people here tried. Who knows? Maybe something will come of it.