Predestination, providence, and free will..

[Kist]

Ok so I have a bible study tomorrow, and it's about free will in relation to things like predestination, and providence. Now I don't think predestination is correct, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I also have a hard time explaining it. Also how does providence relate to free will biblically?

[king'sbloomingrose]

Ok so I have a bible study tomorrow, and it's about free will in relation to things like predestination, and providence. Now I don't think predestination is correct, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I also have a hard time explaining it. Also how does providence relate to free will biblically?

Predestination basically says that before the beginning of time God knew who was going to be saved because He chose out (elected) some to be saved. Because we do not know who will be saved, then we have a responsibility to share the Gospel with everyone we meet. But also, even though "salvation is of the Lord" an individual has free will to say Yes or No to God. Okay, that was all three rolled into one. They interrelate together.

[myinnuendo999]

Predestination is taught in the Bible and I'm sorry I don't agree with it being the definition is that God knew who would choose Him because the word of God clearly teaches that He chose us. And I'm sorry I step on toes on this forum but that's what the Bible teaches. Jesus made it very clear that we did not choose him but he chose us-John 15:16. And that no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws him-John 6:44.
No one seeks God--Romans 3:11. Tell me how could God look through the corridors of time and base predestination on the basis of man's decision for Christ if we cannot because we do not seek God? I call it PRIDE and ARROGANCE for anyone who thinks that man had anything to do with Choosing Jesus Christ!

Not wanting to make this a discussion. However I am disgusted and very tired of the straw-men arguments against me that we are puppets etc, etc---please I'm disgusted and solely want to be on this forum to fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ. But this is a divider. when I believe in what the word of God teaches and not anything outside of the word of God
Have at it forum--------this will be an unending discussion until we go home to be with Jesus

I'm angry because it takes away from God electing whom HE chooses

and NO it's not false teachings this is straight from the word of GOD---have at it

[acceptedinthebeloved]

We are chosen "in Him" Ephesians 1:4 (we shouldn't leave out that important phrase), and we are "accepted IN the Beloved" Ephesians 1:6... He is the chosen one, Isaiah 42:1, "Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

Anyone who trusts in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation becomes (to the position of being) "in Him" and are "accepted IN the Beloved." Predestination, as given in Scripture (4x in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1), has to do with "the absolute [certain] sure end of the believer" (i.e. conformed to the image of Christ, and to a certain sure "inheritance"... because we are "in Him"... by faith), not that some have been chosen for eternal salvation while others have not (and yes, Jesus "chose" His disciples. But not all of them were "saved".)

Speaking of "faith"... in the verse, Ephesians 2:8, the word "gift" refers to "salvation" not to "faith" (as many Calvinists insist) because of the grammar of the sentence... "gift" and "faith" (in the Greek) do not agree in gender, so therefore, "gift" is not referring to "faith" as though God unscrews the top of our head, pours "faith" in, and thus enables us to believe. The "gift" is salvation. "Dead in trespasses and sins" - "dead/death" means "separation" (not an inanimate corpse). The Calvinist says one cannot exercise faith UNTIL they are "made alive by God" FIRST (and that He pours "faith" in), but the Bible says we are "separated" (not inanimate and corpse-like) and that "faith" is what gives/brings/effects Life (not the other way around).

[micah719]

So the final determining factor in salvation is man? Or something outside man, but definitely not solely God? Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith, if not God as stated in Scripture? Sola Gratia dies in your system, you may as well join the RCC because that's their line too.

The Calvinist says one cannot exercise faith UNTIL they are "made alive by God" FIRST

Correct, that is the Scriptural postion.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(and that He pours "faith" in),

Wrong. Faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God. Once you're born again, you're alive to respond to the Gospel, and all who are reborn do respond, and are saved.

but the Bible says we are "separated" (not inanimate and corpse-like) and that "faith" is what gives/brings/effects Life (not the other way around).

No, life comes from God, not from a person's decision to believe. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned on the other thread that babies cannot choose to be conceived or born. The effect of this is that I can't even look down my nose at an unbeliever because I was so smart or good that I made a good choice....it is solely grace that I was given faith. Humbling, utterly humbling. I can't even preen my feathers before God for being so wise and obedient. Humbling. That's why it is so odious a doctrine....the natural man is proud. The argument then that "God is unjust for selecting some and not others" is judging God by sinful man's fallen standards, a thing a sinner should tremble to do. We must trust God to do what is right especially when we don't understand. To do otherwise is to set one's self above God.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[acceptedinthebeloved]

Once you're born again, you're alive to respond to the Gospel, and all who are reborn do respond, and are saved.

You seem to be saying that "rebirth" comes before "faith." I disagree.

"Faith" cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, but "faith" RESULTS in LIFE, not the other way around. (John 3:14-15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.")

And I had meant to include (cannot recall if it was in this thread or not) that Lazarus (whom the Calvinist loves to use as illustration of their point) was not "made alive unto salvation" for he was already a believer before he died. He is not a "type" of how God "makes us alive" BEFORE we have faith. (Lazarus is actually a "type" of the [believing] remnant of Israel at the end of the tribulation period, but that's the subject of a whole 'nuther thread.)



ETA: And Romans 9-11 is basically about "nations" (see "Israel" and "the Gentiles" throughout) and God's choice to work through "Israel" in this world (Gen 25:23 "Two NATIONS are in thy womb"). Israel was proud, wanted to hoard it all to themselves because they thought they deserved it (by [natural/national] birth), but God said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" (whether Jew or Gentile... it's not up to YOU!) At the end of Romans 11 (Romans 11:32) Paul concludes the matter by assuring us, "For God hath concluded them all [Jew and Gentile alike] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all [Jew and Gentile alike]." Indeed He will have mercy on whom He will (on "all" )... not only on those whom Israel willed.

[Kist]

Predestination is taught in the Bible and I'm sorry I don't agree with it being the definition is that God knew who would choose Him because the word of God clearly teaches that He chose us. And I'm sorry I step on toes on this forum but that's what the Bible teaches. Jesus made it very clear that we did not choose him but he chose us-John 15:16. And that no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws him-John 6:44.
No one seeks God--Romans 3:11. Tell me how could God look through the corridors of time and base predestination on the basis of man's decision for Christ if we cannot because we do not seek God? I call it PRIDE and ARROGANCE for anyone who thinks that man had anything to do with Choosing Jesus Christ!

Not wanting to make this a discussion. However I am disgusted and very tired of the straw-men arguments against me that we are puppets etc, etc---please I'm disgusted and solely want to be on this forum to fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ. But this is a divider. when I believe in what the word of God teaches and not anything outside of the word of God
Have at it forum--------this will be an unending discussion until we go home to be with Jesus

I'm angry because it takes away from God electing whom HE chooses

and NO it's not false teachings this is straight from the word of GOD---have at it

Don't know if this was aimed at me, but the sole purpose of this thread was my fear of going in a false direction, and wanting to see a biblical view on it. Between you, and Micah, I got exactly that, and I can't be grateful enough for that. Again don't know if the whole disagreeing bit was aimed at me, but I am not looking to make this a discussion, I just wanted to get my head in the right direction. You guys provide the scriptures, that clearly back pre-destination. So if God says it's so, it's so. Like Romans 9:20 teaches, who am I to speak back to God?

Admittedly it is something I have to learn to accept, but that definitely doesn't change the truth of it.

Anyway, if in some way or form I gave off the wrong vibe, I apologise, definitely don't want to divide the body.

[micah719]

You seem to be saying that "rebirth" comes before "faith." I disagree.

Now you're confusing me. First you argue that we aren't dead in sin, now you say life comes from faith. If life comes from exercising faith, what was the condition before? Rome argues that man is wounded by sin, not dead, that he has the innate capability to choose good. The problem is, fallen man never will. Adam didn't go looking for God, he hid from Him. God went and sought Adam out, and didn't fry him as He could rightly have done.

Please read the articles I posted above and compare them with what you're suggesting.

The effect on me is that I'm totally powerless and helpless before God. That is the intended effect. It is the difference between the Pharisee and the tax collector. Anything that I have is from Him...hence the crown goes to His feet. Praise God He came after me and did not take my many refusals as final. That is love. That's a God I can worship and follow to the death because even when I was His enemy He died for me.

I'm glad we are getting to discuss these things, it is central to the Gospel.

[acceptedinthebeloved]

I answered that with John 3:14-15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (i.e. the result/effect of "faith/belief" is "eternal life"... what the condition was before was not "inanimate corpse" but "death=separation from God"). He "draws" all, but "forces" none. He has mercy on all (Rom 11:32). His grace is for everyone, but not everyone accepts it.

I do believe I read the article(s) you posted. That is why I responded (in my post above), in part, with:

[...] that Lazarus (whom the Calvinist loves to use as illustration of their point) was not "made alive unto salvation" for he was already a believer before he died. He is not a "type" of how God "makes us alive" BEFORE we have faith. (Lazarus is actually a "type" of the [believing] remnant of Israel at the end of the tribulation period, but that's the subject of a whole 'nuther thread.)

... as well as the part I wrote about Ephesians 2:8 and "faith" there.


By the way, neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is biblically correct.

[Hannah]

Micah719 and myinnuendo999 arugue that God would be a big Monster if HE didn't override our FREE WILL to make us get SAVED.

Well guys please tell me the flip side of your beliefs! It is all warm and nice to feel that God choose us for salvation. Why does God choose others for Everlasting Destruction? According to your theory they were also choosen or elected by God to go to Hell forever.

Please give me you answers here. I only every hear from both of you half your argument. You never give me scriptures or any teaching as to why it is a wonderful privilege for God to have choosen various members of my family and your own family to go to eternal damnation.

You have shown me only scriptures that says God elects people to salvation. So where are the scriptures that say God also elects/predestines people to judgement and Hell forever?

2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Well obviously the above scripture is untrue. Unless we all actually predestined to be Saved. If predestination is God intervening to enable us to come to Salvation and God wants everybody to come to repentance then we must conclude ALL mankind is Saved.

Hang on for the above scripture to be true and predestination to be true and ALL mankind gets Saved then why is there a White Throne judgement?

Now I'm confused. If predestination ( by that I mean there being NO Free Will or Choice on mankinds behalf when it comes to salvation) actually is true then why is part of the Bible now, not True?

So Micah719 and myinnuendo999 I need some answers.

So if Jesus is the Savior of all mankind and died for all mankind as per the scriptures below. Then we must conclude ALL mankind is Saved because God elects us unto salvation as the choice is not ours. RIGHT?

1TI 4:9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2CO 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

IF ALL of mankind is not Saved then why does God on purpose only choose some to be Saved and some to go to Eternal Destruction?

Again we ALL can't be Saved if the following scripture is True.

DA 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

So if the above verse is TRUE some will be Saved and Some will go to Eternal Punishment and God chooses which will get Salvation and who will get Hell forever then the scripture in 2 Peter 3:9 is False. So that means the Bible doesn't completely hold true under predestination as you believe in predestination.

So congratulations for proving the Word of God is not entirely True!

Basically I have a problem with sin as I seem to be drawn to it and cannot overcome it, therefor I cannot live a perfectly sinless life so I can't be a God elected Saved Believer but a deluded person who thinks I was predestined. Because I cannot have free choice under your understanding of being God's Elected and God's elected Saved Believer would not gravitate towards sin would they?

Hence from your explaination of predestination I can only assume the Bible is a lie and my life as a Christian is based on a lie so I might as well sin it up it doesn't matter God has me pegged for eternal damnation. There is no escape. I finally see the light you have set me free. I have no free will and hence it doesn't matter. I can't choose to want Jesus unless I have been elected to do so and it is obvious I am deluded in thinking I am Saved when in reality I can't be.

So confused now!

2TH 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The above scripture proves my point if you Sin as a Christian you are deluded to think you are Saved because you cannot and do not obey God and all who disobey God go to everlasting destruction. So those who believed the testimony of the gospel give by Paul only did so because God made them believe (& obviously they obey God fully). RIGHT? Have I got your stance on predestination correctly here??

All who sin are diobedient and therefore going to Everlasting destruction because they cannot be the ones who were pre-elected to go to everlasting life. It says so in the above verses of scripture. Since you must not believe that all scripture has to agree with other scripture because for that to be the case you couldn't prove your interpretation of predestination is correct. Hence we can just take all scripture on face value and interpret it in anyway it makes sense.

[Hannah]

JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

If there is no Free Will at all when it comes to salvation this verse again cannot be TRUE! Wonder why these scriptures keep popping up? Since there is no such thing as the ability for any sinner to make any effort on their own to receive salvation?



Micah

You say I have no choice. So I am just not going to bother anymore struggling to be a good Christian. Why bother?

I'm either done for or saved and nothing I do in my life matters now does it!

I am serious here. Since you say you are right in your interpretation and I am obviously wrong then I have had it with being a Christian. I don't need to do one thing because I have been destined to heaven or hell from before I was born.

So how do you know I am Saved? I could just be deluded into thinking that?

If God has not chosen me for salvation then I have no choice do I and why bother with reading the Bible or anything?

There nothing great about a God that made me into a Christian either. If I was forced into salvation then I can't truly show God any love can I. Why should I be grateful for salvation it was a lottery and I just happened to be on the going to Heaven list. Big deal I could as easily have been on the going to Hell list.

What about all that stupid prayer for the salvation of others. No need to pray because you were elected one or the other. No need to share the gospel either. Wow I can't believe I have wasted so much time on this when people can't choose to accept or reject God. They don't have the choice it was made for them.

We are all Sinners Micah from birth but some sinners God decided to grace with salvation and the rest poor dears have been tossed aside to spend eternity in Hell. According to your Biblical interpretation.

A God that chooses to only allow some of His creatures to have any chance of salvation is not the same God I believe in.

Obviously you own this board Micah and everything you say is gospel. Funny I thought the board belonged to Buzzardhut and Chris but I am obviously wrong.

[myinnuendo999]

Dear Kist,, I apologise to you because this is not aimed at you at all.

I've simply withheld my peace for a long time --for the sake of this forum and all who believe otherwise and I feel my hands are wrongfully tied and I'm gagged.

I have held it in for so long catering to this forum and what people believe and have taken the abuse of being accused of believing in false teachings and straw-men arguments long enough. The word of GOD is final authority not this forum nor any man.I am to the BEST of the FEAR of the Lord in my life rightly dividing the word of God. I HAVE to speak out. I can’t hold it in any longer because the word of God compels me to do so.

anyways, I just needed to say I'm sorry for any harm to you Kist. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ here and that's most important to me.

[king'sbloomingrose]

What about all that stupid prayer for the salvation of others. No need to pray because you were elected one or the other. No need to share the gospel either. Wow I can't believe I have wasted so much time on this when people can't choose to accept or reject God. They don't have the choice it was made for them.

We are all Sinners Micah from birth but some sinners God decided to grace with salvation and the rest poor dears have been tossed aside to spend eternity in Hell. According to your Biblical interpretation.

A God that chooses to only allow some of His creatures to have any chance of salvation is not the same God I believe in.

Obviously you own this board Micah and everything you say is gospel. Funny I thought the board belonged to Buzzardhut and Chris but I am obviously wrong.

Personally, I believe that there is a balance between free will and predestination. The two of them meet in the middle. God would not create robots. Nor would He leave man up to his own devices. If left to ourselves, we would never choose God in the first place, if it wasn't for His grace. So it's like Philippians 2:13 says, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." God gives us the desire and ability, but then we have a choice and responsibility to act upon that. Sometimes people disobey God and He let's them because He gave them a free will. He knew ahead of time that that would happen. However, it was not His will that that happen. There's a balance between the two. And no, we'll never fully understand it this side of Heaven. Just a few thoughts.... my brain hurts and I have homework to do, so I will go.

[Meg]

As this thread unfolds, I have wondered if Paul is regretting about now, writing those words about predestination. Immediately after that thought crossed my mind, I knew in my heart that Paul was writing as instructed by the Holy Spirit. So why would the righteous and just Lord God wish to place such a stumbling block of difficultly in His Word... In the Gospels, Jesus Christ seemed willing to toss out confrontational statements to test the hearts of His Listeners. Case in point:

John 6:53

53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

After He said this,

John 6:60-66

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Bitterness grieves the Holy Spirit, because bitterness causes division in the Body Of Christ. It appears that for some people, the concept of predestination is a source of self exaltation, for others a source of grief. Either way, this concept is a test to discover where our hearts may be found.

Factions and divisions over doctrine are works of the flesh, which according to some, is excusable, even inevitable...

Galatians 5:19

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please note that discord and dissensions are grouped with witchcraft in the list of sins which should be avoided at all costs! Christians who wouldn't for the slightest second consider witchcraft feel fully justified in creating divisions over minor points of doctrine...

Galatians 13-17

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Everyone in this argument is claiming to live by Scripture. Some are proving their commitment to their personal viewpoint is more important than their commitment to Jesus Christ. This is inappropriate in view of Scripture, divisive to this board and a lousy witness to a darkend world desperately in need of a Savior. It matters that much.

I bid you peace -- with yourselves, with each other and with the Lord.

In Christ, Meg

[micah719]

If left to ourselves, we would never choose God in the first place, if it wasn't for His grace.

Spot on.

God would not create robots.

He didn't. We are accountable. In His love and mercy He chose to change the hearts of a multitude so that they would freely come to Him and be saved. It is free will before and after, but the nature is changed. Heart of stone vs. a heart of flesh. All whom the Father give Him come to Him.

[BuzzardHut]

He didn't. We are accountable.

yes, all man is accountable to God

In His love and mercy He chose to change the hearts of a multitude so that they would freely come to Him and be saved.

just a few? The Holy Spirit woos all to come to Jesus, some receive, some reject.

It is free will before and after, but the nature is changed. Heart of stone vs. a heart of flesh. All whom the Father give Him come to Him.

And God's saving faith goes out to all.
God does not select just a few and rejects others, not ever giving them a chance, that is satanic.
God's love for all men goes out to all, the path of salvation is laid bare and anyone can turn to it.

[BuzzardHut]

Ok so I have a bible study tomorrow, and it's about free will in relation to things like predestination, and providence. Now I don't think predestination is correct, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I also have a hard time explaining it. Also how does providence relate to free will biblically?

Use this Proportion Theology

Here's an audio series for you on Calvinism - Predestination-Foreknowledge & Election http://www.floydnolenjones.com/Floyd...knowledge.html

and a couple of books...

Chosen But Free: A Balanced View of God's Sovereignty and Free Will
By Norman L. Geisler

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

has some weak points but offers more food for thought

and

What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God by Dave Hunt

http://www.amazon.com/What-Love-This...7864470&sr=1-2

[dave-o]

Acts2:16.17
[...]But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
¹⁷ ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Acts 17:30, 31
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, ³¹ because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Trying to nail down the definitive statement about the Sovereignty of God VS the free-will of man is fruitless. It has been argued for centuries with no conclusion. Obviously this is one of those secrets (Deuteronomy 29:29) that God has kept for Himself.

[micah719]

Trying to nail down the definitive statement about the Sovereignty of God VS the free-will of man is fruitless. It has been argued for centuries with no conclusion. Obviously this is one of those secrets (Deuteronomy 29:29) that God has kept for Himself.

Actually it is concluded. For the one that decides to believe the deetermining factor in salvation is the will of man, it is concluded and he argues from that position. For the one that decides to believe salvation is completely due to God, he also has conclusion and represents that position. If you believe the Finneyite and Billy Sundayite position that "God cast a vote, the devil cast a vote, now it's up to you to cast the decider" then that will shape the rest of your beliefs about salvation and God and it will influence your actions as you preach the Gospel and how you treat sinners and saints. Rome's position is of sinners wounded by sin with the inherent ability to repent and believe..that is why men like Billy Graham are welcome there. It is the dominant position of evangelicalism today and a major reason for the rampant apostacy plagueing the world.

Yes, the command to repent is for all. The offer of mercy and grace is for all and it is genuine. Where we differ is whether or not the natural man can respond because of his will under bondage to his evil fallen nature. Lost sinners are free to reject and all of them reject, freely. The miracle of grace is that The Lord overrides this and quickens the dead spirit so that still by free will the sinner now chooses repentance. To maintain that entry into eternal life depends on some factor in a man or outside of him but not in God is to argue that God's determining will is subject to something or someone else. If it is something in man then salvation is by merit, and if it is outside man then it is fate or the devil or some other determinant. For me, salvation is completely from God and if it is a difficult doctrine then it is worthy of intense study. I won't accuse people of being blasphemous heresy or of being satanic, though I am becoming accustomed to receiving such from others. Dangerous ground, which you would agree if I were to do so to you. Selah.

[BuzzardHut]

Actually it is concluded. For the one that decides to believe the deetermining factor in salvation is the will of man, it is concluded and he argues from that position. For the one that decides to believe salvation is completely due to God, he also has conclusion and represents that position. If you believe the Finneyite and Billy Sundayite position that "God cast a vote, the devil cast a vote, now it's up to you to cast the decider" then that will shape the rest of your beliefs about salvation and God and it will influence your actions as you preach the Gospel and how you treat sinners and saints. Rome's position is of sinners wounded by sin with the inherent ability to repent and believe..that is why men like Billy Graham are welcome there. It is the dominant position of evangelicalism today and a major reason for the rampant apostacy plagueing the world.

Yes, the command to repent is for all. The offer of mercy and grace is for all and it is genuine. Where we differ is whether or not the natural man can respond because of his will under bondage to his evil fallen nature. Lost sinners are free to reject and all of them reject, freely. The miracle of grace is that The Lord overrides this and quickens the dead spirit so that still by free will the sinner now chooses repentance. To maintain that entry into eternal life depends on some factor in a man or outside of him but not in God is to argue that God's determining will is subject to something or someone else. If it is something in man then salvation is by merit, and if it is outside man then it is fate or the devil or some other determinant. For me, salvation is completely from God and if it is a difficult doctrine then it is worthy of intense study. I won't accuse people of being blasphemous heresy or of being satanic, though I am becoming accustomed to receiving such from others. Dangerous ground, which you would agree if I were to do so to you. Selah.

Nope; It's not about man sitting up in the heavens with God and satan casting votes; it's about man's choice to be with God, satan and the angels chose wrongly in rebellion and must be judged, God creates a new creature who will love God because he wants to, not because he has to (such as a robot) In love, God does not exclude anyone a country club type membership to heaven but loves the whole world with the offer of salvation. There is a balance and it can be theologically achieved without subscribing to some man-made doctrine. Satan wants the church to teach others there is an exclusive membership that you must be fortunate enough to achieve and that is not the true gospel message, the gospel is God loves the whole world and was punished for the sins of all so that whosoever can come to the cross and not be denied. That is the true love of God. God also allows us in prayer to intercede and "change His mind" as we've seen done in the OT. God allows us to play a part in His grand design, wrapped around His will. God is more than justice and calculating, He is also love and forgiveness.

The Catholics have no way out of sin and hell, like calvinism, they are taught to subscribe to a corporate church membership in order for the "hope" (of some type of salvation lotto) to be saved, the catholics are never guaranteed salvation.

Man responds to the call of salvation when the Holy Spirit pricks his attention, but he can also reject; Lazarus did not have to come out of the tomb when Jesus called him, but he did come out to live again, although it was temporary. Calvinists teach the saved man, the one picked for salvation, is born already saved, but just doesn't know it yet, and must find his moment of salvation. That is the cart way before the horse. Man is lost and the Holy Spirit constantly works to offer him eternal life and pricks his spirit for the quickening. the Calvin side is just as preposterous as some see the other side.