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  1. #1
    IamPJ is offline Citizen

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    Default Question about the Trinity

    First, I believe in the trinity. I was asked a question recently that I was unable to answer as I really didn't know how to answer. Regarding these verses:

    1 Corinthians 15:27-28

    For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him,
    it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.

    And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject
    unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    So can we say that Jesus the Son is subordinate to God the Father?

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    mattfivefour is offline Super Moderator

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    Well Jesus told us that "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28; also supported by John 10:29) Does that mean that the Father is eternally greater in power or God-ness? No, for God is eternally existent in three co-equal persons— Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all co-equally God. Then what can it mean? It means that for this present Age Jesus voluntarily gave up his position, though not His condition, in the Godhead in order to take on a human body and in His body accomplish the redemption of all who will believe Him and trust in Him. He laid aside all the trappings of God in order to save us. He has thus brought His Kingdom into being through His blood and is adding to it daily. One day He will lay that Kingdom down at His Father's feet and, as Adam Clarke said about 250 years ago, "When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the one infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal."

    One of the best detailed explanations I have ever read is in Dr. Albert Barnes' commentary in which he writes:
    ------------

    Then shall the Son also himself be subject ... - It has been proposed to render this, "even then shall the Son," etc.; implying that he had been all along subject to God; had acted under his authority; and that this subjection would continue even then in a sense similar to that in which it had existed; and that Christ would then continue to exercise a delegated authority over his people and kingdom. See an article "on the duration of Christ's kingdom," by Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748ff. But to this interpretation there are objections:

    (1) It is not the obvious interpretation.
    (2) it does not seem to comport with the design and scope of the passage, which most evidently refers to some change, or rendering back of the authority of the Messiah; or to some resumption of authority by the Divinity, or by God as God, in a different sense from what existed under the Messiah.
    (3) such a statement would be unnecessary and vain. Who could reasonably doubt that the Son would be as much subject to God when all things had been subdued to him as he was before?
    (4) it is not necessary to suppose this in order to reconcile the passage with what is said of the perpetuity of Christ's kingdom and his eternal reign. That he would reign; that his kingdom would be perpetual, and that it would be unending, was indeed clearly predicted; see 2 Samuel 7:16; Psalm 45:6; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Luke 1:22-23; Hebrews 1:8.

    But these predictions may be all accomplished on the supposition that the special mediatorial kingdom of the Messiah shall be given up to God, and that he shall be subject to him. For:

    (a) His kingdom will be perpetual, in contradistinction from the kingdoms of this world. They are fluctuating, changing, short in their duration. His shall not cease, and shall continue to the end of time.
    (b) His kingdom shall be perpetual, because those who are brought under the laws of God by him shall remain subject to those laws forever. The sceptre never shall be broken, and the kingdom shall abide to all eternity.
    (c) Christ, the Son of God, in his divine nature, as God, shall never cease to reign.
    As Mediator, he may resign his commission and his special office, having made an atonement, having recovered his people, having protected and guided them to heaven. Yet as one with the Father; as the "Father of the everlasting age" Isaiah 9:6, he shall not cease to reign. The functions of a special office may have been discharged, and delegated power laid down, and that which appropriately belongs to him in virtue of his own nature and relations may be resumed and executed forever; and it shall still be true that the reign of the Son of God, in union, or in oneness with the Father, shall continue forever.

    (5) the interpretation which affirms that the Son shall then be subject to the Father in the sense of laying down his delegated authority, and ceasing to exercise his mediatorial reign, has been the common interpretation of all times. This remark is of value only, because, in the interpretation of plum words, it is not probable that people of all classes and ranks in different ages would err.

    The Son also himself
    - The term "Son of God" is applied to the Lord Jesus with reference to his human nature, his incarnation by the Holy Spirit, and his resurrection from the dead; see the note on Romans 1:4. (For the evidence of the eternal sonship, see the Supplementary Note on the same passage.) It refers, I apprehend, to that in this place. It does not mean that the second person in the Trinity, as such, should be subject to the first; but it means the Incarnate Son, the Mediator, the man that was born and that was raised from the dead, and to whom this wide dominion had been given, should resign that dominion, and that the government should be re-assumed by the Divinity as God. As man, he shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion. This does not mean, evidently, that the union of the divine and human nature will be dissolved; nor that important purposes may not be answered by that continued union forever; nor that the divine perfections may not shine forth in some glorious way through the man Christ Jesus; but that the purpose of government shall no longer be exercised in that way; the mediatorial kingdom, as such, shall no longer be continued, and power shall be exercised by God as God. The redeemed will still adore their Redeemer as their incarnate God, and dwell upon the remembrance of his work and upon his perfections Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:12; Revelation 11:15; but not as exercising the special power which he now has, and which was needful to effect their redemption.


    --------------

    Essentially it comes down to the the full harmonization of Christ's Kingdom over which He rules into the overall Kingdom of God over which the Father maintains rule until the day when all shall be as God planned it and God shall be "all in all".

    I pray this helps a little. It is a very difficult subject to comprehend because it is based on our understanding of the Trinity which, with our finite minds, is difficult to comprehend in all of its infinite mystery. Don't worry if you do not fully grasp it, because many of the greatest expositors of all time disagree on exactly what this verse means. (It's one of a few things I want to ask Paul about when I get to Heaven. )

    God bless.

    Matt
    -------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a

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  3. #3
    IamPJ is offline Citizen

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    Wow...I think I understand, somewhat. So there really isn't an easy answer to this. I think I'd rather avoid answering this question altogether. It's a little too complex for my small mind.

    Thank you so much for your answer and the information mattfivefour. I really appreciate it.

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    1 The Truth about the Trinity
    -----------------------------------------------------
    I know,,, the Trinity is a controversial and much debated doctrine.
    (Romans 1:20) : "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."
    o He mentions three parts of Him
    - His invisible attributes
    - His eternal power
    - His divine nature

    I believe that the trinity is Truth, and is evident through Scripture and His creation
    o (Gen 1:26) “Let ‘us’ make man in ‘our’ image”
    o We are three separate parts =
    Father - Mind = memory, IQ, understanding
    Son - Body = physical being, host for other 2
    Holy Spirit – Soul = Personality-emotions-character

    o The trinity is evident in all of His wondrous creations
    - He created reality = (height – width – depth)
    --- (a 3 dimensional environment)
    - He created matter = (solid – liquid – gas)
    - He created a time = (past – present – future)
    - He created color = (red – yellow – blue)
    --- (with 3 complimentary colors)

    Can we exist without our mind, or body, or soul,,,
    NO: we are three in one, just like our Creator is

  5. #5
    GlennO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    IamPJ -

    In our finite intelligence, it is impossible to comprehend the self-existent, uncontainable, all-powerful, all-knowing Creator.

    A way to nibble around the edges is to consider the Creator is think of three "who's" and one "what".

    This illustration has been helpful to me when I try to grasp a definition grasp the Triune nature of God.

    Hope this helps....


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  6. #6
    Elijah's Mantle is offline Citizen

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity



    Col 2:2-3 What is the mystery of God and of the Father and of Jesus Christ that Paul refers to here (KJV)?

    There are two different views among Christians as to what exactly Paul is referring here.

    The first view is that the mystery refers to all the mysteries of the gospel that are now revealed by God and Christ (Chapter 1:26-27; 4:3; Mt 13:11; Ro 16:25-26; 1Cor 2:7; Eph 1:9-13; 3:1-11; 5:32; 6:19; 1Ti 3:8-9, 16).

    The second view is that the mystery Paul refers to in Col 2:2 is Christ himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Chapter Jn 1:14; Ro 11:33-36; 1Cor 1:24, 30; 2:6-8; Eph 1:8-9; 3:8-9).

    Neither view is fundamental to salvation, so whichever we hold to, let us agree to disagree with the other in love (read also Ro 16:25-26, 1Cor 2:7-8, 2:9, 4:1; Eph 1:9-12, 3:9-12).

    Col 2:9 What does this mean?

    This asserts Christ's Deity that Jesus is God. The full content of the divine nature lives in Christ's bodily form, and believers have been brought to fullness of life in Him. He is head of all rule and authority in the universe (Chapter Jn 1:1; Php 2:5-8; 1Ti 3:16). readalso Mt 1:18-21, 3:16-17, Lu 1:35 (B), Jn 1:1, 5:16-23, 12:41, Ac 13:33, 20:28, Php 2:5-8, 1Ti 3:16, He 1:5, 5:5, 1Jn 5:6-9, Rev 1:8,


    Jesus is God

    Col 3:1-3 How can one be risen with Christ and yet be dead?

    The word dead here refers to sin, the law, and the things of this world. Upon their conversion to Christ believers spiritually entered into His death and resurrection.

    His was a physical resurrection out from among the physically dead.
    Theirs was a spiritual resurrection out from among the spiritually dead and from a state of spiritual death, into that of spiritual life.

    They died to their former sin nature and now have the nature of Christ ... for ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Chapter 2:20; Ro 6:2-4, 6-7, 11-13; 7:4-6; Ga 2:19-20; 1Pe 2:24). read also Ro 6:1, 6:3-5, 6:6-11, 6:12-14, 6:15, 6:16, 6:17-20, 6:21-23, 7:4.

    Col 1:16-17 What profound truth does this passage highlight?

    The profound truth this passage highlights is that Jesus was not eternally the Son of God as a great many Christians believe - He was God.

    Before He took on human form at His incarnation, Jesus always existed as an equal member of the Godhead from all eternity ( Mic 5:2; Zech 13:7; Mt 1:23; Jn 1:1-2, 15; 3:13; 8:56-58; 17:5; Php 2:5-8; 1 Ti 3:16; 1 Jn 1:1-3; 3:16). Fellow in Zech 13:7 refers to the pre-incarnate Jesus as being a fellow-God with Jehovah.

    The pre-incarnate Jesus was a spirit being and carried out the divine order of creation ( Psa 90:2; 102:25-27; Jn 1:3, 10; Eph 3:9; He 1:1-2, 10-12; Rev 3:14). For more read Lu 1:35 also Jn 12:41, Ac 20:28 and 2Pe 1:1-2



    Jesus is God

  7. #7
    Elijah's Mantle is offline Citizen

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity


    From scripture and studying it out is it correct to say ?
    Jesus is God or was God ?

    what is correct ?

  8. #8
    mattfivefour's Avatar
    mattfivefour is offline Super Moderator

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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    EM, Jesus IS God. Not was. As the Bible says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8) God's actual form remains inscrutable to us: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit together eternally compose the One God. It is a mystery that our human minds cannot comprehend. We just have to accept that it is true because God's Word plainly reveals it. But while we may not be able to wrap our minds around God's form, we are given clearly His nature and His characteristics. And we are also clearly given His will. These things we can grasp and these things not only must guide us in our comprehension of God but also provide us with the means by which we must judge ourselves.

    I hope this helps, brother.
    -------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a

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  9. #9
    GlennO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    Re: The Trinity

    1Co 12:4-6
    (4) Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same [Holy] Spirit;
    (5) and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;[Jesus]
    (6) and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God [Father]who empowers them all in everyone.


    Kinda straight forward
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    Israel Re: Question about the Trinity

    The Trinity—the triune nature of God—is a basic doctrine of Christianity. Although the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from God’s Word. The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible could not be more explicit that there is only one God, which it declares about two dozen times. In Isaiah 45:5 God says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides me there is no God.” In Mark 12:29 Jesus states, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The LORD our God is one Lord . . .’”

    Jesus referred to God as His Father, and the apostles frequently spoke of “God the Father.” But the New Testament also insists that Jesus is God. For example, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28), and both Peter and Paul spoke of Jesus as “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13). Yet the New Testament also makes the distinction between the Father and the Son as two very different persons. In fact, they tell us that they love one another, speak to each other, and seek to glorify each other (e.g., John 17:1–26).

    The Old Testament refers often to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. But Jesus in John 14:16 explained that the Father at Christ’s request would send this Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would teach and guide the disciples, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ’s behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and from the Son.

    The three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—are distinct persons, yet they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

    There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses those in Christ to be saved (Ephesians 1:4); the Son redeems them (Ephesians 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them (Ephesians 1:13).

    A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a created being and the Holy Spirit as a force (Jehovah’s Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son, where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (United Pentecostal). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).

    It has been interestingly said, “If you try to figure out the Trinity, you will lose your mind; if you deny the Trinity, you will lose your soul.” In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is completely biblical, and it is essential that all Christians give assent to this doctrine.

    The Trinity at Work in Redemption
    In every major phase of the redemption, each person of the Godhead is directly involved. Their involvement in each successive phase can be seen in the following:

    1.Incarnation. The Father incarnated the Son in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1:35).

    2.Baptism in the Jordan River. The Spirit descended on the Son, and the Father spoke His approval from heaven (see Matthew 3:14–17).

    3.Public ministry. The Father anointed the Son with the Spirit (see Acts 10:38).

    4.The crucifixion. Jesus offered Himself to the Father through the Spirit (see Hebrews 9:14).

    5.The resurrection. The Father resurrected the Son by the Spirit (see Acts 2:32; Romans 1:4).

    6.Pentecost. From the Father the Son received the Spirit, whom He then poured out on His disciples (see Acts 2:33).


    The following should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scripture. The list is only illustrative, not exhaustive.


    Father - Son - Holy Spirit


    Additional Descriptions Applied to All Three in the Trinity


    1) Who gives us words to speak?
    Father—Matthew 10:19,20: “But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.”

    Holy Spirit—Mark 13:11: “But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Spirit.”

    Son—Luke 21:14,15: “Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what you shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.”


    2) Who gave the New Covenant?
    Father—Jeremiah 31:33,34: “But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, says the LORD,I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

    Holy Spirit—Hebrews 10:15–17: “Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

    Son—Hebrews 12:24: “And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...”


    3) Who is our helper?
    Father—Hebrews 13:6: “So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do to me.”

    Holy Spirit—Romans 8:26: “Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities.”

    Son—Hebrews 4:16: “Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”


    4) Who comforts us?
    Father—2 Corinthians 1:3,4: “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; who comforts us in all our tribulation . . .”

    Holy Spirit—Acts 9:31: “Then had the churches rest throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, were multiplied.”

    Son—2 Corinthians 1:5: “For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds by Christ.”


    5) Who gives us peace?
    Father—1 Corinthians 14:33: “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

    Holy Spirit—Galatians 5:22: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith...”

    Son—John 14:27: “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”


    6) Who sends out Christians?
    Father—Matthew 9:38: “Pray therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.”

    Holy Spirit—Acts 13:4: “So they, being sent forth by the Holy Spirit, departed to Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.”

    Son—Matthew 10:16: “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.”


    7) Who calls Christians to ministry?
    Father—1 Corinthians 1:1: “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God . . .”

    Holy Spirit—Acts13:2: “As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.”

    Son—Romans 1:6: “Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ.”

  11. #11
    Meg
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    Default Re: Question about the Trinity

    I always had a simplified understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:27-28. I believe what Paul said means that through Jesus Christ, the final reconciliation of humanity to God the Father will be made complete; in other words, the sin passed down from Adam will be completely healed and we will be restored to the rightful relationship with God that was His intent all along.
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