Does this verse mean you can lose salvation?

**Juliebeth** · October-20th-2011, 05:04 PM

Matthew 18:34-35

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

I make every effort to forgive people from the heart but ontop of everything is layers of hurt. It can be very hard to sort out emotions. What if someone thinks they have forgiven someone but they don't do it properly? Do they lose salvation? Why is this verse so scary?

**mattfivefour** · October-20th-2011, 05:20 PM

Remember, sis, "perfect love casts out all fear". In other words, when you understand the love God has for you, you will not be afraid of being cast away from Him. This is quite different from those who have never repented and turned from their sins asking Him to be the their Lord and Savior and desiring in their hearts to please Him even though at times they may disappoint or even disobey Him.

You are saved by what Jesus did, not by what you do.

The issue of forgiveness is an important one, nevertheless. The parable in Matthew 18 is speaking about a godless man. It is speaking about one who wants forgiveness for himself but is not willing to offer the same thing to others. It doesn't refer to someone who has been badly hurt and finds it hard to forgive someone. As someone once said, man usually wants mercy for ourselves and judgment for others. This is that person in that parable: someone who has themselves at the center of their universe and treats others badly, specifically, by demanding punishment for the one who transgresses against them, not caring that they accepted mercy from God for having transgressed against Him in a much greater way. It is a person who lives in violation of the second great Commandement: To love their neighbor as Christ loved the Church.

I hope this helps.

**Juliebeth** · October-20th-2011, 10:32 PM

That did help, thanks. I have people on my FB page telling me that you have to forgive to be forgiven. Tit for Tat kinda. But salvation is supposed to be a free gift that we cant earn. So I came here because I know that I would get the right answer :) Thanks Matt

**mattfivefour** · October-21st-2011, 01:12 PM

Juli, the people on FB are correct in a specific sense ... but are incorrect in their broad generalization. If a person refuses to forgive then they are likely not forgiven themselves. That has nothing to do with losing their salvation, but rather that their heart has not been changed and thus they were never saved. A saved person, ie: a Christian, has the mind and heart of Christ and thus wants to forgive; however that does not mean they are always able. The difference with a Christian who is having a hard time forgiving someone is that it is not that they refuse to forgive but that they are willing yet just cannot forgive in their own strength. However, I can assure you that, as they make this a matter of serious prayer and seeking God on the matter, they are surrendering to God's will and the Holy Spirit will work in them to produce the forgiveness they need to offer.

**Meg** · October-21st-2011, 01:48 PM

Hi Juli, I totally agree with what Matt has shared with you so far. I am so glad you are here and finding sane answers to difficult questions. I would like to share what i have been going through...

My neighbor is a sociopath, the genuine article. He gets his kicks coming over here, destroying things and doing all sorts of harm. I have been dealing with this for 11 years now and have been sorely tempted, more than once, to do him some serious harm in return. I have been raked over the coals, trying my best to forgive past harms only for him to provoke me again and again. I have reached a point where I don't think I am in forgiveness any more, I just had to hand it all over to the Lord.

Sometimes, simple forgiveness, or even complex forgiveness is more than a person can do. In this sort of case, I have known Jesus Christ to just take the terrible thing -- not from me, but FOR me. I have full trust that He will do the same for you. Pray the whole thing through, and place the full weight of your trust in Christ, Juli, for it is Written there is no condemnation in Christ. Keep in mind that He alone knows exactly who did what to whom and more importantly, what the things done did to you, and that He cares and cares deeply. Trust in Jesus Christ, dear sister, He is full of love and grace, and He can and will cover your wounds.

**Montini** · November-5th-2011, 07:58 AM

Juliebeth: I have the Catholic solution to this problem: read Christ's words in Matthew, and OBEY them. Simple, wasn't it.

**Montini** · November-5th-2011, 08:00 AM

And as a humorous follow up: Mark Twain once said, "it's not the passages in the Bible I do not understand that bother me; it's the passages I DO understand!"

**Robert** · November-5th-2011, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Juliebeth

Matthew 18:34-35

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

I make every effort to forgive people from the heart but ontop of everything is layers of hurt. It can be very hard to sort out emotions. What if someone thinks they have forgiven someone but they don't do it properly? Do they lose salvation? Why is this verse so scary?

Let's take a look at the entire passage here:

"Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”" (Matthew 18:21-35, NASB. emphasis mine)

In the parts that I bolded and underlined, we see that the first slave in the story pleaded for compassion for himself, but when it came time to show compassion, he was unwilling, not unable. His actions are not that of a hurt man, but of a heartless one who immediately after his reprieve from his King sought out his fellow slave and grabbed him roughly. There is a big difference between being unable to forgive and unwilling to forgive. Pain from being hurt scars us and, for some time after being hurt by someone who has wronged us, can make us incapable of forgiveness until the Lord heals us and removes that scarring, much like a surgeon debrides (removes) damaged tissue from a wound. Being unwilling to forgive, however, is a mindset that is vengeful and spiteful: it seeks to cause injury to others and is a festering resentment that is deliberately held against others.

The Lord is not going to remove salvation from a believer because they are unable to forgive someone out of their own strength; it is not a question of "any one sin", but of a hardened heart towards God. A hurting heart and a hardened heart are two very different things; one is in pain and the other has turned to solid rock. The Lord knows the difference, and what He is saying here is that for those who want forgiveness for themselves but will not forgive others at all, they do not know Him.

I hope this helps sis

-Robert

**mattfivefour** · November-5th-2011, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Montini

Juliebeth: I have the Catholic solution to this problem: read Christ's words in Matthew, and OBEY them. Simple, wasn't it.

Well, now, you have basically said by obeying the law we can be saved. Which is totally in error. The Bible is clear on that. Juli's problem was not that she did not know what Jesus said God required, nor was it that she was unwilling to forgive. It was that she found it impossible to forgive in a certain situation. The "Catholic" solution seems to be, from what you said, to just try harder. That is the flesh trying to conquer the flesh. It can never work. And if it did, it would still have no spiritual value. Only a changed heart has value and only Jesus Christ can accomplish that. It is in drawing closer to Jesus in that daily personal one-on-one relationship with Him that the Holy Spirit can work in us unhindered. And it is only the Holy Spirit that can produce the nature of Christ and true obedience to Him. Our part is to desire the finished work; His part is to accomplish it.