Someone please help with Revelation 10

[skywalker]

Ok, I'm not going to link to where I found this (and will remove links that are in the article), but I've read this a while back and it STILL has me thinking, but I would like your input telling me why this is wrong, because I can't find anything wrong from a scriptural position. Here goes:

Title: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

And there it is. Two of the — if not the – most popular ‘rapture’ passages in the entire Bible. Yet when many Christians read about the timing of this event “at the last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider that this is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. Why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth.

For a moment, if you will, toss aside any preconceptions you may have on the timing of the rapture and approach the text as if it were for the first time. Approach it with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let us now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10:

Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular passages in the entire Bible?

1 Thess 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

In Revelation 10 we have:

A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven
Crying out with a loud voice
The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound
And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound
In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have:

The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel
With a shout
Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God
The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye
I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence. In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text.

In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”. Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “coming on the clouds” or “coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”. It should be quite obvious to us that this is none other than Jesus Christ.

In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely. In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angel “was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.” This is extremely interesting for two reasons. First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3). Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep. But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5). There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6). Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus. Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep:

Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought downfrom Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom. [1]

If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here.

Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.

Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last. It is the “rainbow upon his head”. The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. [2]. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read:

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.“

“Where is this coming he promised?” There is their answer.

Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created ‘angel’. It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case. The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God [3] because He is God. When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic/Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic/Theophanic angel as well.

When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church.

Ok discuss!

[mattfivefour]

First of all, Jesus is not an angel. Second neither is this angel a Theophany or a Christophany since those only occurred prior to the revealing of Jesus Christ. Once Jesus was made flesh there were no more appearances of Himself. Once He had ascended to Heaven His place on earth was taken by the Holy Spirit who indwells each Christan. So forget this angel in Revelation 10 being a post-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ in angelic form. He is not.

Second, the word translated "sound" in Revelation 10:7 is indeed the sounding of a trumpet. But the Greek does not say it sounds, but rather that it is about to be sounded (ὅταν μέλλῃ σαλπίζειν); in fact it says when it MAY be about to be sounded since μέλλῃ (melli, about to) is in the subjunctive. It is not sounded until Revelation 11:15 ... and when it IS sounded, it ushers in the third woe which is actually a series of torments that last for a period of time, likely days and days, until Revelation 18.

But all of this is a red herring. There are a few specific trumpets sounded in the bible ... and their purpose is always to announce the start or end of something. The last trumpet of the trumpets in Revelation is not the same as the trumpet sound that calls the Church up. The last trumpet in Revelation has to do with the announcement of the end period of the Great Tribulation and the pouring out of the last (third) woe and the series of torments it contains. The trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is the trumpet that announces the end of the Church on earth, the final trumpet of the Age of Grace, the current dispensation which will end with the Church's departure.

If the Church is indeed present right through to Revelation 18 ... or even Revelation 11 ... do you not think it odd that NOT ONCE is it mentioned? But Israel is mentioned over and over. The last mention of the Church is in Revelation 3, prior to John being taken to heaven and prior to the sounding of the first great Trumpet.

Don't worry about the article you read. They have merely confused trumpets. And this forces the explaining away of all of the texts promising the Church that it will be kept from the wrath of God and the time of great tribulation, while also breaking the image of Christ as the figurative Ark into which we enter to rise above the figurative waters that will destroy the earth in the same way that the literal waters destroyed the people in Noah's day. What the article presents is a nice little theory, based on a misunderstanding of scripture, that results in a doctrine that not only does not line up with the totality of Scripture but requires the explaining away of it.

Matt

[Chris]

More On The “Last Trump” | GraceThruFaith

More On The “Last Trump”

Q. You are teaching a pre-trib rapture. 1 Thes 4:16 mentions a trumpet of God as one of those things that call us to meet the Lord in the sky. If that was all I had, I could see how the rapture is pre-trib., but 1 Cor. 15:52 says at the last trumpet, and isn’t the last trumpet toward the end of the Trib. according to Rev.?

A. Let’s see if we can put this bit of incorrect interpretation to rest once and for all. There is no Biblical basis for connecting either the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11:15 or the trumpet call of Matt. 24:31 with the last trump of 1 Cor. 15:52. In the case of Rev. 11:15 this was originally done to support the old mid-trib rapture position but the truth is it’s never called the last trump in the Bible, nor is it the last trumpet blown before the 2nd Coming (Matt. 24:31). It’s simply the last in the series of seven trumpets in the 2nd set of Revelation judgments and is always called the 7th Trumpet, never the last trump.

The term last trump refers to the fact that the trumpet call of God from 1 Thes. 4:16 will signal the end of the Church Age, at which time the Church will disappear from Earth. In 1 Thes. 1:10 Paul had already said Jesus would rescue the Church from the time and place of God’s wrath (which will have begun during Rev. 6), so he would have been contradicting himself by referring to the 7th Trumpet in Rev. 11:15 as the last trump.

Some try to tie the last trump reference in 1 Cor 15:52 to the mention of a trumpet in Matt. 24:31 to justify a rapture after the end of the Great Tribulation. This also contradicts the promises Paul made to the Church. The trumpet of Matt 24:31 is blown to gather the Lord’s elect from one end of the heavens to the other, so it refers to those who are already with the Lord. The companion verse in Mark 13:27 doesn’t mention a trumpet, but does say the elect on Earth (Tribulation believers) will be gathered together at this time as well.

But both passages clearly describe the Lord in His 2nd Coming in power and glory on His way to Earth in full view of everyone to establish His Kingdom. This is different in every respect from Paul’s claims in 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thes. 4:16-17 (supported by John and Isaiah) that in an instant the Lord will snatch believers off the Earth to meet Him in the air and then hide us in His Father’s house (John 14:2-3) to protect us from the coming wrath (Isaiah 26:20).

No, Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27 describe a call to His elect to join Him in the Kingdom. Since the Church will have already been raptured and housed in our “mansions in the sky” Matt. 24:31 could simply be referring to the resurrection of Israel (Daniel 12:1-2) and Tribulation martyrs (Rev. 20:4) both of which happen at the time of the 2nd Coming. Mark 13:27 could be adding Tribulation believers who survive the judgments and will enter the Kingdom live (Matt. 25:34) which also happens at the time of the 2nd Coming. But neither of them can be describing the rapture of the church.

[Elijah's Mantle]

When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. I

I see what you mean
yep I never seen it like that before

OOH LORD you have rattled my brain skywalker

Ill be like a dog on a bone for days and days with this now

not often something gets me like this one does

Ill be thinking on it till I find it all out now

[Elijah's Mantle]

In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”. Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “coming on the clouds” or “coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”. It should be quite obvious to us that this is none other than Jesus Christ.

I agree with that because all the way back in Rev. 1:16
also in Daniel 10:5-6
then when it says as you pointed out clothed with a cloud
that refers to the glory of God upon him for he IS GOD we can match that with Ex.40-34-38
the rainbow on his head speaks of peace and mercy

getting to and he had in his hand a little book open
does that proclaim the same book of Revelations chapter 5 ???
because I think so because now it is """OPEN""" he
""HE" is the one who opened it 5:5:6 and 1
JESUS

I like this

[Elijah's Mantle]

Revelations 5:5
behold the lion of the tribe of Judah,the root of david has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof

Jesus Christ

what say you ?

[acceptedinthebeloved]

I don't have time to post much, this evening, so I will be very brief (I hope my points will be made clear enough).

1) the writer is failing to keep Israel and the Church distinct, as should be done

2) they are saying that "the mystery" is the rapture (and indeed the rapture IS one of the "mysteries" pertaining especially to the Church), but there are other "mysteries." The "mystery" I believe that is being specifically referred to in this Revelation 10 passage (Revelation 10:7) is "the Mystery of God" (see the following passage, the only other passage where this phrase is found):


"... that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true [full-]knowledge of God's mystery ["the mystery of God" - KJV] , that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." - Colossians 2:2-3NASB


Now, this passage is specifically addressed to the Church (who already has the fulness of Christ, which is basically what Colossians 2 is about)... but Israel does NOT YET. During the tribulation period (at some point), they will come to know Him... "the Mystery of God, that is, Christ Himself."

The "mystery" being referred to in Revelation 10 is "the Mystery of God, [that is, Christ Himself]" (relating to Israel), NOT the "mystery" of the rapture (which is specifically for the Church).

That's the "very condensed version" of sort of how I see it.
.

[Elijah's Mantle]

adds up to speak about the close of the church age
which yes the Rapture

guess that's how come its called the book of revelations i

cant help but see it the way it reads and once we look at the part that
points to Jesus Christ so unmistakeably
well there it is
BIG AS DAY

[Elijah's Mantle]

the passage you give acceptedinthebeloved
colossians 2:2 is excellent


however in Revelations 10 and your right about Jesus Christ being revealed
that I can concur with



you leave out something important
it states " the mystery of God should be finished "

the fact it states that we can know that it is not referencing Jesus in that passage

the mystery pertains to the reason God has allowed satan to continue to reign over the earth for these thousands of years
2nd Corinthians 4:4

the part you left out """"should be finished"""' I tend to read it is not meaning the same mystery because a mystery finished is different than
a mystery """of""""

see what I am saying ?
declared to his servants the phrophets
Isaiah and Ezekiel

right before up one in verse 6 of rev 10 we find a proclaimation os something important
and right about it in verse 5 concerns a oath

the proclamation """and sware by him""" proclaims the world belongs to God
in 5 the angel standing on the sea and upon the earth that lifted up his hand
(concerns a oath )

[acceptedinthebeloved]

As I understand it, I believe it simply means that in those days ("in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound"), He will be concluding the matters pertaining to prophecy, which (in this case especially) serve to point Israel to Him (I'm certain there is much more to it, but that is the "basic outline" idea I get from it). Hope that makes sense, together with what I have written above.

[Elijah's Mantle]

"" But in the days of the voice of the seventh Angel, when he shall begin to sound""
that speaks of the beginning of the last half of the Tribulations

seventh Angel

along with it comes Judgment and the two witnesses chptr 11 following 10



what you gave is excellent

however I do think the mystery of God that ""should be finished"" is different than the mystery of God spoken about in col 2:2
because in verse 1 of Rev ten we know that is Christ himself
he would not be swearing a oath to himself I dont think
" that there should be time no longer "
there wont be no delay in who's will will be done
"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done"
on earth as it is in heaven
Is about to be answered

what is about to be finished in these passages is not Jesus Christ

he is about to finish satan and render Judgment
bitter in the belly represents Judgment ((the worst of all))) the A/C turns on Israel
tread under foot forty and two months

[Robert]

Ok, I'm not going to link to where I found this (and will remove links that are in the article), but I've read this a while back and it STILL has me thinking, but I would like your input telling me why this is wrong, because I can't find anything wrong from a scriptural position. Here goes:

Title: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

And there it is. Two of the — if not the – most popular ‘rapture’ passages in the entire Bible. Yet when many Christians read about the timing of this event “at the last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider that this is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. Why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth.

For a moment, if you will, toss aside any preconceptions you may have on the timing of the rapture and approach the text as if it were for the first time. Approach it with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let us now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10:

Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular passages in the entire Bible?

1 Thess 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

In Revelation 10 we have:

A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven
Crying out with a loud voice
The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound
And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound
In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have:

The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel
With a shout
Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God
The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye
I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence. In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text.

In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”. Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “coming on the clouds” or “coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”. It should be quite obvious to us that this is none other than Jesus Christ.

In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely. In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angel “was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.” This is extremely interesting for two reasons. First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3). Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep. But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5). There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6). Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus. Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep:

Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought downfrom Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom. [1]

If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here.

Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.

Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last. It is the “rainbow upon his head”. The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. [2]. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read:

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.“

“Where is this coming he promised?” There is their answer.

Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created ‘angel’. It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case. The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God [3] because He is God. When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic/Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic/Theophanic angel as well.

When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church.

Ok discuss!

For one thing, there is a big difference between an angel and the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is never referred to as an angel in scripture, and while the term "angel" does mean "messenger", scripture always connotates the difference between a created being sent by God as a messenger and Jesus Christ Himself, who is uncreated and eternal. Even in any appearances before His coming to earth, the difference is made clear.

For another, having the ability to shout like a lion doesn't make an angel Jesus either:

"Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Under that line of thinking...well, you get the idea.

Another point: the scroll that the angel had that was written on both sides being the Torah is built on some pretty flimsy evidence here. Not to mention that the Church, whom is the bride of the Lamb, is not under the Old Testament, but the New:

"But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3: 23-26, NASB)

My point is this: simply comparing instances in scripture is not exegesis. We have to consider all the context involved as well as some biblical common sense. The Lord doesn't start a new dispensation without dealing with the previous one in some manner, and a mid-trib rapture assumes we are still here for the dispensation of the Tribulation. Another thing is that we are told that we would be spared the wrath of God in Revelation 3; now, if Jesus (the Lamb) is God, and the first half of the tribulation is the wrath of the Lamb, then I would think from scripture that we would not be in it.

But the most important point that needs to be made is this: the purpose of the Tribulation. If it were for wrath alone, God would not have shortened the length of it, as Jesus said in Matthew 24. The other purpose of the tribulation is to shake the security of foolish man in a world gone wrong and to turn as many as possible to the Lord. That being the case: there is then no purpose for the Church to be here for any of it, since the church has already chosen God.

[Elijah's Mantle]

question ?

in verse 11
why does it say ""AND HE" said unto me (referring to John) I think
you must prophesy again before many people ?

[Hannah]

I found your source and of course you couldn't link to it because it is a Blog Site.

It isn't a teaching site in anyway the person who runs it admits picking up articles at random on the Internet and post them if they like them.

We at RF do not believe in a Rapture that will occur in the Tribulation time. We are a pre-tribulation Rapture site.

I agree with Robert's post.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Hannah I am actually glad Robert showed up and also that you agree with Robert

however I think you missed the point skywalker merely wants to discuss

Ok, I'm not going to link to where I found this (and will remove links that are in the article), but I've read this a while back and it STILL has me thinking, but I would like your input telling me why this is wrong, because I can't find anything wrong from a scriptural position. Here goes:

were supposed to be finding why this is wrong and discussing scripture

not everything needs turned into a board battle

BTW
I'm pretrib

[Elijah's Mantle]

whats wrong from a scriptural position that I cant pin point is this part

Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought downfrom Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom. [1]

If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here.

speculation is just that
speculation

the part about find out the meaning and the mention of 144,ooo has my attention

But I am so not there yet

so far its been interesting

makes me dig like a dog though

why do I have to take the bait and get into these really LONG studies

Its good to discuss

as long as other folks dont see it as an oppurtunity to start a pit and play member board war with it

I love to learn
as long as its not in conflict

so far its all good

[Elijah's Mantle]

ok Ive dug something up

Revelations 12:5
""'And she"
Is the she ????? Israel ????
brought forth a manchild ( most interpret this scripture as Jesus ) why ?
could it be or is it the 144,ooo Jews who come to Christ during the first half of the great tribulations spoken about in chapter 7 ?????
and to make it more curious than I need were not told exact how this will happen

ok I am looking for info on the manchild

[Elijah's Mantle]

are you pointing out the rapture of a 144,000 ? skywalker ?
that takes place at about midpoint of the great tribulations ???


different than the close of the church age and were already there


has to be what this is talking about
otherwise

I cant imagine what else is the ""Mystery" about the 144

I dont got a clue

[Elijah's Mantle]

ok I get it

I got to the war in heaven
it pertains to """THE MYSTERY OF GOD BEING FINISHED " back in 10:7

ok ok I found it

GOOD STUDY

made me get nervous and dig for awhile

but I get it what this alludes to
the wrong part is
Im up way past my bedtime

the other part of what is said is not that scripture is wrong
just that the rapture of the church should not be mingled with what God does regarding Israel and the 144,ooo

scripture tells us plainly that her child was caught up unto God and to his throne .......... Rapture of the 144,000
not the church

I would like your input telling me why this is wrong, because I can't find anything wrong from a scriptural position.

I cant find any from a scriptural position
however from the position presented one must not confuse the close of the church age and the rapture of the church with God then turning to Israel and dealing with Israel
neither should different "Mysteries "" Get confused ..

If we look at the differences and what is referenced in each they bear witness and scripture
suports scripture in context which is fun way to learn more GOOD STUFF

[myinnuendo999]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Well, from what I see from the get go is {{the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from heaven,,,}} and the trumpet is the "trump of God" -1 Thess.4:16-17.

In Rev.10 it is an angel--descending and blowing a trumpet and the "Lord himself is not descending" and it's not the "trump of God"--I don't believe they are the same. The trump of God and an angel blowing a trumpet are entirely different. Also, the Lord HIMSELF will SHOUT 1 Thess.4 but in Rev.10 the Angel is doing the shouting or "cried with a loud voice".