CAN YOU SOLVE THIS ONE!!

[Elijah's Mantle]

why the split and the difference of the counting of whether mary's side or Joseph's is quite intrigued me

was there a age difference between Mary and Joseph
spanning 10 years ? I surely dont know
somehow that dont explain it though

Im stuck Im kinda stuck here

[Elijah's Mantle]

there is 27 in NT
and the only solvent is
before I go postal
Go Rabbinical
difference in how we count and they record

there has to be a explanation
there just has to
probably something Id never imagine

this sure is a tuffie over my head stranger

[Elijah's Mantle]

sometimes is helpful to go to Older wisdom
and thats where we must admit to some of our Biblical illiteracy
as embarrassing as it tis

Hope this helps stranger is the best explanation I can find


notice that Luke starts with Mary and goes backwards to Adam.
Matthew starts with Abraham and goes forward to Joseph.
The intents of the genealogies were obviously different which is clearly seen in their styles.
Luke was not written to the Jews, Matthew was.
Therefore
Matthew would carry the legal line (from Abraham through David)
and Luke the biological one (from Adam through David).

Also, notice that Luke's first three chapters mention Mary eleven times; hence, the genealogy from her.

Fourth, notice Luke 3:23, "And when He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli,"

This designation "supposedly" seems to signify the Marian genealogy since it seems to indicate that Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph.

Finally, in the Joseph genealogy is a man named Jeconiah.
God cursed Jeconiah (also called Coniah), stating that no descendant of his would ever sit on the throne of David, "For no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or ruling again in Judah," (Jer. 22:30).

But Jesus, of course, will sit on the throne in the heavenly kingdom.

The point is that Jesus is not a biological descendant of Jeconiah, but through the other lineage -- that of Mary. Hence, the prophetic curse upon Jeconiah stands inviolate.

But, the legal adoption of Jesus by Joseph reckoned the legal rights of Joseph to Jesus as a son, not the biological curse. This is why we need two genealogies: one of Mary (the actually biological line according to prophecy), and the legal line through Joseph.

[Elijah's Mantle]

we know Jesus full filled the law
even with a split a biological one against a legal one
from two lines
Jesus told them who he was
they did not accept it
Yet look at the wisdom God showed in it all

we can most the time never wrap our minds around it



amazing how every part speaks of Jesus and his true identity to God

makes me want to leap up and Holler

this sure is something to think about stranger

quite a challenge to go a searching it all out

[the stranger]

Mantle, again I think you for your thoughtful reply.

I have looked into this possibility, but there is a couple issues that I have with that thought.

(1) I can find no other list relating from the female side of the family any where else in the bible. From my own research, it is believed these list were never made from the female side of the family. Nothing meant on my prospective on anything but equality, but this is just the things that I have noticed and read on my research.

(2) In context, it does not really sound like that is the case either:

Luke 3:23-25 (King James Version)

23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,



Matthew 1:15-16 (King James Version)

15And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.



In any given translation, if reading in context, it appears to me to be an unlikely case, though gaining in popularity. In my debates in this ex Christian site that I debate on, I try to base my answers with as much factual and in context scripture that I can, and so, for my own personal reasons, I cannot side with this popular prospective. However, in your defense, the cursing on David's side is something I have a hard time dealing with in my take on things.

I found this prospective to be possible, but not with absolute certainty.



Joseph, the husband of Mary, from whom the Christ was born, is descended from a Levitic family, as the divine evangelists indicated. But Matthew traces Joseph's descent from David through Solomon, while Luke (says) through Nathan. Solomon and Nathan were both sons of David. Now the evangelists were silent about the ancestry of the holy virginsince it was not customary for the Hebrews nor for the divine scripture to give genealogies for women and there was a law prohibiting one family from contracting marriage (with a person) from another. Insofar as Joseph was descended from a Davidic family, he contracted to marry the holy virgin who was from his own ancestry. So they were content to indicate the ancestry of Joseph. Now there was a law that when a childless husband died, his own brother was to go to impregnate the wife and raise up an offspring for the one who had died. Thus the resultant child was, on the one hand, by nature (an offspring) of the second one, who had generated it, but by law, (offspring) of the one who died. Now, from the seed of Nathan, son of David, Levi generated Melchi. But from the seed of Solomon, Matthan generated Jacob. But when Matthan died, Melchi the son of Levi, from the family of Nathan, impregnated the mother of Jacob and generated from her Eli. This resulted in half-brothers with a common mother, Jacob and Eli. But Jacob was from the family of Solomon, while Eli was from the family of Nathan. Then when Eli, from the family of Nathan, died childless, and Jacob his (half-)brother took his (Eli's) wife he generated Joseph and raised up an offspring for his (dead) brother. So Joseph is by nature a son of the Jacob who descended from Solomon, but by law (he is son) of Eli (who descended) from Nathan.

http://www.bcbsr.com...vey/sgosp1.html


The problem is, even with this, the blood line still cannot be fully accounted for regarding the birth of Christ seeing that He was sinless and Mary was not, and Joseph had no physical stance with this at all. A birth that was a miracle? Yes. But the question still remains. If it is a case of direct blood line, than how could this be a birth apart from the sin nature, when Jesus, though fully God, was also fully human?

I know God will help me find this answer, and often He does this through family, such as yourselves.

Either way, I really appreciate your efforts on this, Mantle. It means a lot.

[the stranger]

You are certainly right on Luke's focus on Mary, but I still cannot place it in that regard in context. You are right, it would be nice to have a little more historical understanding on these things.

One thing I find interesting is that many questions or "problems" of today never seemed to be an issue during that time or generations after! What did they understand that we do not? The way of writing? The way of understanding? It kind of makes a person wonder, if no opposition came up with regards over certain things then that are said to be contradictions now, than we know that even those who hated Christ in that day had no case to arguing against what is now done. If so, is those same arguments even valid today?



Thanks again Mantle

[mattfivefour]

You might want to read Bodie Hodge's article on this topic at Answers in Genesis— How did Jesus avoid having original sin?

I am not necessarily endorsing it, but it does deal with the three aspects of this question.

I hope this helps.

[Elijah's Mantle]

I found this to be helpful in understanding how Jesus was born sinless

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife; for that WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST."

Matthew 1:18-20


"NOW all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Matthew 11:22-23


THE VIRGIN BIRTH

Passing strange, is it not, that with such a clear record anyone can deny that the BIBLE TEACHES THE VIRGIN BIRTH. We can understand how men can reject the Bible record, but how men can say that the Bible does not teach the VIRGIN BIRTH is beyond conception.

The Bible teaches plainly that Jesus was conceived in the womb of a virgin Jewish mother by a supernatural insemination of the Holy Ghost, wholly and apart from any generation by a human father. This the Bible teaches so plainly that to the believer there is no doubt. The record cannot be mistaken by the enlightened and honest student of the Word.

JESUS SINLESS

The Bible teaches in addition that Jesus was a SINLESS man. While all men from Adam to this day are born with Adam’s sinful nature, and, therefore, are subject to the curse and eternal death, the Man Jesus was without sin and, therefore, DEATHLESS until He took the sin of others upon Himself and died THEIR death. Now while Jesus was of Adam's race according to the flesh yet He did not inherit Adam's nature. This alone will prove that sin is not transmitted through the flesh. It is transmitted through the blood and not the flesh, and even though Jesus was of the "Seed of David according to the flesh" this could not make him a sinner.


God has made of ONE BLOOD ALL THE NATIONS of the earth. Sinful heredity is transmitted through the blood and not through the flesh. Even though Jesus, therefore, received His flesh, His body from a sinful race, He could still be sinless as long as not a drop blood of this sinful race entered His veins. God must find a way whereby Jesus could be perfectly human according to the flesh and yet not have the blood of sinful humanity. That was the problem solved by the virgin birth.

ORIGIN OF THE BLOOD

It is now definitely known that the blood which flows in an unborn babies arteries and veins is not derived from the mother but is produced within the body of the foetus itself only after the introduction of the male sperm. An unfertilized ovum can never develop blood since the female egg does not by itself contain the elements essential for the production of this blood. It is only after the male element has entered the ovum that blood can develop. As a very simple illustration of this, think of the egg of a hen. An unfertilized egg is just an ovum on a much larger scale than the human ovum. You may incubate this unfertilized hens egg but it will never develop. It will decay and become rotten, but no chick will result. Let that egg be fertilized by the introduction of the male sperm and incubation will bring to light the presence of LIFE IN THAT EGG. After a few hours it visibly develops. In a little while red streaks occur in the egg denoting the presence of Blood. This can never occur and does never occur until THE MALE SPERM HAS BEEN UNITED WITH THE FEMALE OVUM. The male element has added life to the egg. Life is in the blood according to scripture, for Moses says:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11). "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof."

Leviticus 17:14

Since there is no life in the egg until the male sperm unites with it, and the life is in the blood, it follows that the male sperm is the source of the blood, the seed of life. Think it through.


NO MOTHERS BLOOD

For this very reason, it is unnecessary that a single drop of blood be given to the developing embryo in the womb of the mother. Such is the case according to science. The mother provides the foetus (the unborn developing infant) with the nutritive elements for the building of that little body in the secret of her bosom, but all the blood which forms in that little body is formed in the embryo itself and only as a result of the contribution of the male parent. From the time of conception to the time of birth of the infant not ONE SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD ever passes from mother to child. The placenta that mass of temporary tissue known better as “afterbirth,” forming the union between mother and child is so constructed that although all the soluble nutritive elements such as proteins, fats, carbohydrates, salts, minerals and even antibodies pass freely from mother to child and the waste products of the child's metabolism are passed back to the mothers circulation, no actual interchange of a single drop of blood ever occurs normally. All the blood which is in that child is produced within the child itself as a result of the introduction of the male sperm. The mother contributes no blood at all.

TESTIMONY OF SCIENCE

Now for the sake of some of the skeptics who may doubt these statements let me quote from a few reliable authorities. In Howell’s Textbook of Physiology, Second Edition, pages 885 and 886, I read:
"For the purpose of understanding its general functions it is sufficient to recall that the placenta consists essentially of vascular chorionic papillae from the foetus (the unborn child) bathed in the large blood spaces of the decidual membrane of the mother. The fetal and maternal blood DO NOT COME INTO ACTUAL CONTACT. THEY ARE SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER by the walls of the fetal blood vessels and the epithelial layers of the chorionic villae."

Or let me quote from Williams’ Practice of Obstetrics, Third Edition, page 133. Here I quote,
"The fetal blood in the vessels of the chorionic villae AT NO TIME GAINS ACCESS TO THE MATERNAL BLOOD in the intervillous space, BEING SEPARATED FROM ONE ANOTHER by the double layer of chorionic epithelium."

And from page 136 of the same recognized textbook I quote,

"Normally there is no communication between the fetal blood and the maternal blood."

Now for the benefit of those of you who may be nurses, let me quote from a textbook which is familiar to you. Quoting from "Nurse’s Handbook of Obstetrics" by Louise Zabriskie, R.N., Fifth Edition, page 75:
"When the circulation of the blood begins in the embryo, it remains separate and distinct from that of the mother. All food and waste material which are interchanged between the embryo and the mother must pass through the blood vessel walls from one circulation to the other."

And from page 82 of the same book --
"The foetus receives its nourishment and oxygen from the mothers blood into its own through the medium of the placenta. The fetal heart pumps blood through the arteries of the umbilical cord into the placental vessels, which, looping in and out of the uterine tissue and lying in close contact with the uterine vessels, permit a diffusion, through their walls, of waste products from child to mother and of nourishment and oxygen from mother to child. As has been said, this interchange is effected by the process of osmosis, and there is no direct mingling of the two blood currents. In other words, no maternal blood actually flows to the foetus, nor is there any direct fetal blood flow to the mother."

GOD'S WONDERFUL PROVISION

How wonderfully God prepared for the virgin birth of His Son. When He created woman He made her so that no blood would be able to pass from her to her offspring. That blood is the result of the male. Since Adam was the federal head of the race, it is HIS BLOOD which transmits Adam's Sin. In order to produce a sinless man and yet be the son of Adam, God must provide a way whereby that man would have a human body derived from Adam but have not a drop of Adam's sinful blood. Right here is the scientific biological reason for the sinlessness of the Man Christ Jesus. Some have tried to answer the question, “How could He be sinless and yet born of a woman?” by making Mary the “Immaculate Virgin.” That, however, does not answer the question of how JESUS was sinless since it is through the male that the bloodline runs.

Not only is this a scientific fact, but it is plainly taught in Scripture that Jesus partook of human flesh without Adam's blood. In Hebrews 2:14 we read,
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood. He also himself likewise took part of the same -- "

You will notice that the children, that is the human children, are said to be partakers of FLESH and BLOOD, and then speaking of Jesus it says that He "himself likewise took part of the same." The Word “took part” as applying to Christ is an entirely different word then “partakers” as applied to the children. In the margin of my Bible, I read the word translated “took part” implies “taking part in something outside one’s self.” The Greek word for partakers is "KOYNONEHO" and means “to share fully,” so that all of Adam’s children share fully in Adam’s flesh and blood. When we read that Jesus “took part of the same” the word is "METECHO" which means to take "part" but not all. The Children take both flesh and blood of Adam but Christ took only part, that is the flesh part, while the blood was the result of supernatural conception.

Jesus was a perfect human being after the flesh. He was of the seed of David according to the flesh, but blood is that part of a man which is the divine addition. In the creation of man, Adam’s body was made from the dust of the earth, but God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Since life is in the blood, this act resulted in the formation of blood in Adam’s body, but the first Adam’s blood was corrupted and sin transmitted through it to all mankind. In the last Adam and the second man, new and divine and sinless blood was produced in a body that was the seed of Adam and by this resulted in the production of —
DIVINE BLOOD

Conception by the Holy Ghost then was the only way the Virgin Birth could be accomplished. Mary contributed the body of Jesus and He became the "seed of David according to the flesh." The Holy Spirit contributed the Blood of Jesus. It was sinless blood. It was Divine blood. It is Precious Blood for there has never been any other like it. It is —

INNOCENT BLOOD

"I have betrayed the innocent blood" Judas confessed in Matthew 27:4. Our Lord was innocent. He became like unto us in all things — SIN only excepted. Like unto us with ONE EXCEPTION and that exception was that instead of a human father He was conceived by a DIVINE FATHER. As a result biologically, He had DIVINE BLOOD, SINLESS BLOOD. Because this blood is sinless it is —
INCORRUPTIBLE BLOOD

Sin made human blood corruptible. Soon after death, decay sets in, and it begins in the blood. That is why meat must be drained well of its blood. That is why embalmers place the embalming fluid in the blood. David said that Jesus’ body should "see no corruption." Though He was dead three days and three nights, His body did not corrupt. Because He was sinless they could not put Him to death but instead He "laid down His life voluntarily that He might take it up again." He arose by His own power because death had no claim in HIM except the claim of others’ sin, and when that was paid —

"Death cannot keep his prey, Jesus, my Saviour,
He tore the bars away, Jesus, My Lord.
Up from the grave He arose,
With a mighty triumph o'er His foes."

Sinner, have you received this Saviour and have you been washed in His PRECIOUS BLOOD? If not, you are still under the curse and the awful sentence of death. Why not accept HIM today and hear Him as he says:
"God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Romans 5: 8, 9

[mattfivefour]

Indeed, He was "conceived of the Holy Ghost". He inherited his body from His mother but His nature from His Father. In the flesh He was subject to all the weaknesses of the flesh ... yet He was not prey to them since He had not fallen human nature but God's perfect nature. And it was through the trials and temptations that confronted Him that He was able to express His perfect nature and show us how God intended man to be. So, too, it is through the trials and temptations that confront us that we have the opportunity to express the nature of Christ in us. And that expression only comes as we more and more yield to Him, and more and more live in the victory of the Cross (in other words in complete belief in all that Jesus won for us by His sacrifice) through which the Holy Spirit brings to fruition the gospel seed planted in us at salvation.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Indeed, He was "conceived of the Holy Ghost". He inherited his body from His mother but His nature from His Father. In the flesh He was subject to all the weaknesses of the flesh ... yet He was not prey to them since He had not fallen human nature but God's perfect nature. And it was through the trials and temptations that confronted Him that He was able to express His perfect nature and show us how God intended man to be. So, too, it is through the trials and temptations that confront us that we have the opportunity to express the nature of Christ in us. And that expression only comes as we more and more yield to Him, and more and more live in the victory of the Cross (in other words in complete belief in all that Jesus won for us by His sacrifice) through which the Holy Spirit brings to fruition the gospel seed planted in us at salvation.

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER MATT

when we abide in that complete belief
all the powers of darkness are vanished
because in Christ Jesus is VICTORY over the enemy
can we fully grasp ALL that JESUS WON by his great sacrifice
what a day it will be when we behold the lamb

[Elijah's Mantle]

Jesus solved man kind's most severe dilemma (sin)
and spoke life where there was darkness and death
Hallowed be the name of God

[the stranger]

MANTLE That was brilliant. I could not have found that on my own. I tried. This makes sense and is backed up by fact. Thank you. This certainly for me seems to be the answer.

I am going to look into this further for verification of other scripture, if any can be found.

If this is correct, what is the answer for the following:

The blood link is part of the promise to David.
The king messiah must be the physical offspring of David. David is considered the starting point from which a king messiah must originate. God promised to David:

2 Sam 7:12-16
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

The biological link is also expressed here:
Psa 89:34-37
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Solomon would be punished when he did wrong, but as 2 Sam 7:12-16 indicates, Solomon would never have God's favor taken from him. Solomon was the son who would carry on the physical line of his father David which would be established forever as shown in the following:

1 Chron 28:5-7
And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

Solomon's kingdom was carried on through his descendant Asa who followed the Lord's heart as King David had done.

Adoption breaks the paternal blood link.


Now I guess a couple things could be thought of here

(1) Being that the word seed implies offspring, and or children, family, this this may not need be factual that Jesus come from the sperm of David. Even though David had nothing physically to do with the birth of Jesus, Jesus was still his legal son.

Beyond this, The promise of the seed of David, though partly true in direct blood link seen through his son Solomon, was not of the flesh only, and in the sense of Jesus, was directed at Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, not relating to direct blood link, as seen in the following:


Galatians 3:16, 19-21, and 29 (King James Version)


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


If the promise of Jesus Christ would have been meant through the blood line of David, Jesus could not have been sinless therefore never being able to save us from our sins. This promise had two meanings, but the promise of the seed of the Savior Jesus Christ, Who would reign on the throne forever, was directly from the Holy Spirit, and was not directly part of the blood line of David, though Jesus was his legal son, therefore legally being able to take the throne of David.

This also seems to be shown in this passage:

Jeremiah 33:14-18 (King James Version)

14Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

18Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.


We can re instate this with Romans:

Romans 9:6-33 (King James Version)

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.



And in the same context relating to us, John writes:

1 John 3:9 (King James Version)

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.




Now certainly Jesus came to the Jews first, as this was Gods first chosen people, and Jesus did in fact come from the line of David, that is, David's descendant, legally, but not with the past down sin from Adam. Jesus was fully human, but, also fully God.



Thank you brother Matt for your input. Always a delight.


I have much more to go on this before I get it all down, but I thank you all so much for your help. I can honestly say I could not do this with out you.

Any information that I put down as what I believe to be fact sounds a little off to you, please let me know. I am still in the process of learning, and need to learn much more than I can share.

Thanks again and God bless.

I will continue this conversation as I gather more information!

[Elijah's Mantle]

It has been a real learning discovery for me as well

as I was pondering over all the facts
it also occurred to me that Jesus holds the key of David
yet I can not get the like order of the entire part of it
and so I am still pondering all of it carefully

what you have laid out stranger is EXCELLENT
brings it all more full circle clarifying and validating scripture

[Elijah's Mantle]

The phrase "key of David" only appears once in the scriptures

"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the KEY OF DAVID. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open." (Revelation 3:7

The speaker is the resurrected Jesus
whom John sees in a vision
and the message is to the church at Philadelphia.
The one who is "holy and true" is, of course, Jesus, who "holds the key of David".


One explanation of this can be found in
Judas's scepter and Jacobs birthright


The meaning of the Jeremiah scripture and the key of David is most interesting to learn about
still I have no answers on the full meaning of the key of David

[Elijah's Mantle]

I found this one helpful to answer the one part but there is 2 other parts

The Sceptre or the Promise of a
Perpetuated House, Throne
and Kingdom to David

The Sceptre, and the Davidic Convenant


"OUGHT ye not to know that the Lord God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?" (2Chronicles 13:5)

There is no question, with those who have followed us thus far, that the Birthright people have been cast out into an unknown and far-away country, which, when they entered, was an uninhabited and unexplored wilderness. While Israel has been exploring, pioneering and settling this wilderness, the Lord has so hedged up their way that they can find neither the paths by which they came nor the place from whence they came.

Although lost, in so far as their national identity is concerned, they are in the place where the Lord has said they shall find grace, and where he has promised to speak comforting words to their hearts -- in the wilderness.

There we will leave them to fulfill their appointed destiny of becoming a multitude of nations, while we follow the history of the Scepter, and learn what the Word of the Lord has revealed concerning his present and its future. For, if God has been true to his word, and unless the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has become of no effect, then the Scepter, as well as the Birthright, has not only a present existence, but a glorious future.

When God made the covenant with Abram in which he made him (prospectively) the father of many nations, thereby changing his name to Abraham, he gave the promise, "Kings shall come out of thee." (Genesis 17:6, 35:11). Also, when the promise concerning the multiplicity of nations was reiterated to his wife, whose former name was Sarai, but now Sarah, or princess, it was said, "Kings of nations shall be of her" (Genesis 17:16, R. V.). Thus by the choice or election of God were they made, not only the progenitors of a race which was to develop into "many nations," which were to spread abroad to the North, South, East and West, but also a royal family. This, of course, includes a Sceptre -- the emblem and sign of royalty.

These promised blessings, given by the Lord and confirmed to Abraham by an oath, were received by him in faith, and counted as though they were already in existence, for the simple reason that, when a thing is promised by the Lord and received by any one in faith, that thing must eventually materialize, because faith is the God-given force or power which will and must eventually bring promised things into existence. Hence both "the Birthright" and "the Sceptre" blessing passed from Abraham to Isaac as a real inheritance; while he in turn bestowed them upon Jacob, who so much desired them and considered them so surely to exist already that he was willing to strike bargains for them, or even resort to fraudulent measures to get possession of them.

At the death of Jacob these two covenant blessings -- the Birthright and the Sceptre -- were separated, the Birthright falling to one of his sons and the Sceptre to another one of them, as we have heretofore fully explained. When Jacob, at the time of his death, while acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit, gave the Sceptre blessing to Judah and his lineage, the prophecy which he gave with it was,

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be," (Genesis 49:10).

After the Abrahamic people had cried down the Divine Theocracy, rejected the Lord as their king, and insisted on having a human king, they chose Saul. Although Saul was not of the royal line, but a Benjamite, he was permitted to reign, for the Lord had determined to give the people the desire of their hearts. But after the downfall of that haughty Benjamite, David, a son of the royal family, was enthroned, and to him were reiterated the promises concerning the royal family, which had been emphasized to Judah by his dying father when he bestowed on him the covenant blessing of royal fatherhood.

When the Sceptre covenant was confirmed to David, the Lord gave the message through Nathan the prophet in these words:

"When thy days be fufilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men. But my mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thy house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: Thy throne shall be established forever," (2Samuel 7:12-16).

David was so impressed with the magnitude of this prophecy and with the period of time which it covered that he went in and sat before the Lord, pondering over it, until in wonderment he exclaimed:

"Who am I, O Lord God, and what is my house that thou hast brought me hitherto? And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord God [i.e., the present power, glory and prestige of David's house, throne and kingdom]: but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O Lord God?" (2Samuel 7:18,19).

No. It is not the manner of man to prophesy concerning things "for a great while to come." But it is the manner of God. Yes, and it is the manner of God to make good that which he has spoken. David understood this; so he prayed,

"And now, O Lord God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it forever, and do as thou hast said." (v. 25)

If it be possible that there can be such power put into written words as shall yet come from that voice which shall sound the seven thunders, we pray that it may be put into those which record the above facts; and thus compel our readers to see that it is not the spiritual throne, the spiritual sceptre, the spiritual house, nor the heavenly kingdom, which are therein spoken of, but that it is the literal throne, the earthly kingdom, and the lineal house of the Judo-Davidic family which are the subjects of this prophecy; and that all these are to endure FOREVER.

There is also in this prophecy a note of warning to David's successor, which is given in the following: "If he commit iniquity I will chasten him with the rod of men." It is not at all presumable that the ruler, sitting on the spiritual throne, and holding the sceptre over the heavenly kingdom, would commit iniquity; hence no such a threat could have been given with reference to him. But when it is applied to Solomon, the immediate successor of his father David, and to others of the royal line, it is altogether another question, for many of them were as wicked as men ever get to be.

Further, this prophecy was to go into effect when David's "days were fulfilled," and when the son who should be set up after him would build a house for God. Solomon, who was "set up" after David, did build a house to the Lord, viz., the temple at Jerusalem. But the Messiah has never, as yet, built any such house. Before the temple was built, and when Solomon was giving orders to Hiram concerning the material for its construction, he said:

"Behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room he shall build an house unto my name," (1Kings 5:5).

Also, when the temple was finished, Solomon, standing before the altar of the Lord, in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and with uplifted hands spread toward heaven, in that wonderful prayer at the dedication of the temple, said:

"The Lord hath performed his word that he spake; and I am risen up in the room of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the Lord promised, and have built an house for the name of the Lord God of Israel. . . . There is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servant . . .

"who hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou promisest him; thou speakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying: There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel," (1Kings 8:20-25).

By this prayer we see that Solomon understood that the throne, the kingdom, and the lineal house of David should stand forever.

Solomon not only understood it this way, but declared it before all the congregation of Israel, so that the entire nation should be fully aware of the fact. This was so thoroughly known in Israel and acknowledged by her prophets that, at the time of the division of the race into two kingdoms in the days of Rehoboam and Jeroboam, Abijah, in his zeal that the lineal rights of the royal family might not be ignored, stood upon a mountain in Ephraim and cried out:

"Hear me, thou Jeroboam and all Israel. Ought ye not to know that the Lord God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David forever and to his sons [not son, not one, but many] by a covenant of salt?" (13:5). The marginal reading is, "a perpetual covenant."

The eighty-ninth Psalm contains much light regarding the covenant under consideration, which the Lord made with David and his sons, concerning the perpetuity of his throne, scepter, kingdom, and his posterity. In it the Lord declares:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, saying, Thy seed will I establish forever, and build up thy throne to all generations." (Psalm 89:3-4)

Not a few, not some, not even many, but "ALL generations."

Continuing, he says:

"My mercy will I keep for him forevermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure forever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments: then will I visit their transgressions with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless, my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that has gone out of my lips." (v. 28-34)

Surely it is not possible to break the force of these words. The proposition could not be stated in stronger terms. The Lord simply will not break his covenant; he will not change, nor modify, nor in any way or for any reason alter, the thing that he has spoken, even if the children of David do forsake his law and break every commandment in his statute book. If they do break his law, he will chastise and punish with "the rod" and "with stripes," but he will not suffer his faithfulness to fail.

The covenant is unconditional. It "shall stand fast," no matter how often they are visited with rod and stripe for their transgressions. No matter how severe the punishment, the fact remains that the throne, the sceptre, the kingdom and the seed, must endure forevermore.

The fact that in this confirmation of the Davidic covenant the Lord uses the expressions, "his children, " "they" and "their," all in the plural form, is proof that this covenant does not have reference to the spiritual reign of his son Jesus Christ in the hearts of Christians. Furthermore, it could not be possible that Jesus Christ, he of whom the prophet Isaiah wrote saying, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given." whose "name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace," (Isaiah 9:6) we say it is not possible for this Prince of Peace, who is The Mighty God, to break his own commandments, forsake his own law, or disregard his own statutes, and then punish himself for his own wickedness. No, these warnings do not apply to the Immortal One, but to the frail mortal sons of David, of whom Solomon was the first, and whom the Lord punished for his wickedness, as we may learn by referring to the eleventh chapter of I Kings, where we read as follows:

"And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods, but he kept not that which the Lord commanded.

"Wherefore the Lord said unto Solomon: Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and I will give unto thy servant. Notwithstanding, in thy days I will not do it, for David thy father's sake; but will rend it out of the hand of thy son. Howbeit, I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake," (1Kings 11:9-13).

Please notice how perfectly the facts agree, in every detail, with the declared purpose of God. Solomon, the seed of David, who was set up after him, who sat on the throne in the room of his father, who built and dedicated the house of the Lord, did forsake his God and refuse to obey his commandments. If God is true to his word, he must punish any of the children of David who thus forsake his law. So, as a punishment to Solomon, he purposes to take the greatness and power of the kingdom away from that son, who, as Solomon hopes, shall inherit the throne, crown, sceptre and kingdom, in all its glory. But no; the Lord purposes to take away the greater part of the national strength and power of the kingdom and give it to one of the servants of Solomon instead of the royal heir.

But while the Lord is declaring unto Solomon the punishment which he purposes to visit upon him for his disobedience, he is careful to say:

"Howbeit, I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son." (v. 13)

Why not "rend away all the kingdom?"

The Divine reply is, "For David my servant's sake."

Why for David's sake?

Because the Lord gave the "kingdom over Israel to David and his sons forever."

Ah, he dare not take away the entire kingdom from that royal line! Yes, we can say "dare not," and emphasize it, too. And we may also add, must not cannot, or any and all such expressions as will voice our protest or express the impossibility of such a thing. Indeed, the Lord himself has uttered a stronger protest than ours could ever be. We say this because the Lord, in this Psalm which we have under consideration, after saying, "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips," has, in the very next statement, made use of words which forever shut the door of retreat; for he not only took an oath, in which he pledged his own holy character, but he brought the physical universe into the contract, or at least that portion of it which involves the continued existence of the present arrangement of our solar system. His declarations are:

"Once have I sworn, by my holiness, that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be estabished forever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in the heaven, " (Psalm 89:35-37).

Also, in the twenty-ninth verse of that same Psalm is the following:

"His seed also will I make to endure forever, and his throne as the days of heaven." (v. 29)

If we are willing to give these words their full and natural meaning, then surely we must see clearly that it is the intention of the Lord that we shall understand that, so long as the sun, the "great light" which he created for a light by day, and the moon the "lesser light," which he created to rule the night, shall keep their appointed places in the heavens, traveling their orbits, continuing to make their proper changes, passing through their ecliptics, or completing their lunations,just so long must they rise over, shine down upon, and set beyond, the limits of, a kingdom on this earth over which some member of the Judo-Davidic family is holding the sceptre. Just so long will they continue to say, by their very presence in the heavens.

"We are witnesses unto men throughout all generations, that the Lord God of Israel has not lied into his servant David."

Furthermore, it is certain that the expressions, "days of heaven," and "a faithful witness in heaven," as used in these Scriptures, are purely astronomic, and refer to the stellar and atmospheric heavens. Hence the throne, kingdom, sceptre and family of David must endure, "as the days of heaven," i.e., so long as the earth continues to revolve on its own axis, thus giving to itself that diurnal motion which causes day and night to succeed each other, and which enables the sun and moon to perform their functions of lighting the day and night.

"But," says one, "do not these sayings apply to the kingdom and throne in heaven, where Christ, the seed of David, is now sitting at the right hand of God? And is not the New Jerusalem, which is above, and is the mother of us all, the celestial capital of that kingdom?" To this we are compelled to give a negative answer; for that celestial city has

"no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof," (Revelation 21:23.)

“But," questions another persistent spiritualizer, "do not the seed and throne mentioned in these Scriptures refer to Christ, who is the 'Son of David,' in his spiritual kingdom, which is set up in the hearts of men?" Again we are compelled to reply in the negative, for the Holy Ghost is the divine illuminator of that kingdom; the sun and the moon having never been heavenly lights, only in an astronomic sense.

Furthermore, a mere glance at the context will reveal the fact that the Lord is dealing with a very earthly seed and kingdom; for, intermingled with the promises of an everlasting seed, throne and kingdom, the declaration is made concerning the children of David that, if they do not walk in his judgments and keep his commandments, but forsake his law, and break his statutes, then he will visit their transgressions with the rod and their iniquity with stripes. But still, no matter how wicked the ruler on the throne or the subject in the realm, he will not suffer his faithfulness to fail, his covenant with David must stand forevermore.

The only conditions to the covenant are such as are entirely beyond the power of man either to control or to break, viz., the faithfulness of God in keeping and fulfilling his word, the holiness of his character -- for he cannot lie -- and the omnipotence of his power to keep the sun, moon and the earth rolling onward in their present cycles and order until, by the good pleasure of his will, he shall change those ordinances and bring into existence the new heavens and the new earth. Hence, the Holy Ghost has inspired Jeremiah to write:

"Thus saith the Lord: If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; then may also my covenant be broken with my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne," (Jeremiah 33:20, 21).

Previously, in this same chapter, and in the seventeenth verse, the Lord has said: "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." Then he adds the following:

" If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinance of heaven and earth, then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Jeremiah 33:25-26)

This, too, after saying:

" As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant," (Jeremiah 33:22, 25, 26)

In the statement, "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne," the word man is translated from the Hebrew "ish" (iysh), which is defined as meaning "a man, a person, a certain one, any one."

In the declaration that David should always "have a son to reign upon his throne," the Hebrew word from which "son" is taken is "Ben", which means "son, man, or a builder of the family name.

In the other expression, "take any of his seed to be rulers," etc., the word "seed" is taken from the Hebrew "Zara" -- " a man, a person, a child, a nephew, a grandchild, or relative."

This being the case -- together with the fact that when duration of time is being considered, there are no stronger words in the Hebrew language than those which are translated "forever," "evermore," and "everlasting," then these following propositions must stand:

1.

The Lord God of Israel made a covenant with David concerning the perpetuity of his seed, throne, and kingdom, regardless of the good or evil conduct of his descendants.
2.

The subjects of this Davidic kingdom must belong to the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
3.

Some person of the lineage of King David must be on that throne (seat of power) who holds the sceptre, and reigns over that kingdom.
4.

National afflictions will come upon them, as punishment for their unrighteousness; but they will not be utterly destroyed; for the kingdom must endure so long as there be day and night, and the subjects must continue to increase until they become innumerable.
5.

So long as the sun, moon and earth continue rolling onward in their appointed orbits, just so long must the seed, throne, and Israelitish kingdom of David be in existence, or we have no longer a holy God ruling in the heavens and watching over Israel.
6.

In order to prove that God has become unholy -- i.e., lied -- some man must yet find a fulcrum on which to rest his lever with which he can stop the rotation of the earth, and then find some way by which he can drive those witnessing lights from the sky; or in some way break up the appointed ordinances of heaven and earth, so that there cannot be day and night in their season. Otherwise, the holiness and omnipotence of God must not be questioned. This is the reason that David so triumphantly says to him: "Thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name," (Psalm 138:2).
7.

The fact that God has thus magnified his word above his name would, in case of a failure on his part to perpetuate that which he swears shall be in existence forever, give us authority to impeach his testimony on every line, for it would undeify him.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Jacob's seed was divided into two kingdoms

[Elijah's Mantle]

"When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot [cord, or line] of his inheritance," (Deuteronomy 32:8, 9).


only Bible passage I find that states the separated sons of Adam

[the stranger]

Thank you Mantle. That is a lot of info. I will have to take some time to really dig into that. Some good stuff.