question regarding Revelations

[Elijah's Mantle]

In my studying of Revelations I get to chptr 12 it is first talking about the great red dragon
when it comes to 12:5 and says " and she brought forth a man child ******
(she) does that mean Israel ?
the question is ? Is that the 144,ooo Jews ? that come to Christ ?
we are not told exact how this happens to be done
Any way jumping on down to the verse reading "" and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne " ***** Is that refering to the rapture ? of the 144 thousand or to all ? caught up definably to me means a rapture, the question is to them or to all I may be getting something confused with this

[ShilohRose]

My understanding is that the Dragon is Satan, the woman giving birth is Israel, and the child born to her is Jesus. After the Resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven which brings us to the time period when true Israelites will have to flee from the antichrist during the Tribulation, and some experts believe that they will be fleeing to Petra.

[Elijah's Mantle]

can you explain how when it says ' manchild" that it is Jesus
since in the later verse it speaks of caught up
If it would have said ascended or resurrected that would make sense.
because this was written for last of time
can you show from scripture why the term here "manchild" is speaking of Jesus ?

[Elijah's Mantle]

I was reading " and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered , was the man child or referring to that , as being the ones back in chapter 7 that gave their hearts to Jesus Christ , not saying the man child is Jesus

[Elijah's Mantle]

ok that would not make a lick of sense
because Jesus is the one who does the delivering
not the one ready to be delivered
I cant wrap my mind around that referencing Jesus
help

[Elijah's Mantle]

the woman giving birth is Israel, and the child born to her is Jesus.

I am reading it as the child born to the woman (Israel) as those who gave their hearts to Jesus , those in Israel who accept Jesus as Lord and savior , I dont see how or why Jesus would be down here needing to be saved or delivered from a dragon

[ShilohRose]

Jack Kelley, on the Grace Thru Faith website, has an excellent chapter by chapter study on Revelation. He is one of the sources for this interpretation, but I have never heard any other interpretation for this. Revelation does not appear to be totally future. For instance, you have Jesus telling John to write letters to the seven churches in chapters two and three, and they were churches back in John's time. It's just that the Bible often has meanings for the time in which it was written and future or prophetic meanings as well. Israel is often portrayed as a woman, however, and when I think about it, it makes sense for the woman in Rev. 12 to be Israel because the nation of Israel "gave birth" to Jesus. The male child has to be Jesus because the verse says that the male child will "rule the nations with a rod of iron."

I understand that the word used in Rev. 12:5 for "caught up to God" is the same one used by Paul in I Thessalonians. I don't see that as a difficulty in the interpretation as Jesus being the male child in this scripture because it implies that we will ascend to the Father in the same way that Jesus did. The specific word "ascension" does not have to be used for it to be referring to Jesus. You could say that Elijah ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot, or that Enoch ascended or was raptured.

[discusdog]

The woman is the bride, Isreal IMHO

[Elijah's Mantle]

ok how do I place that reading on when it states in Revelations 12:13 " and when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth , he persecuted the woman , which brought forth the manchild ?
to me it means that that is the anti Christ who breaks the 7 year covenant with Israel attacking and defeating her ........ which goes back to Daniel 9:27

now we can say for certain Jesus Christ is not the A/C who breaks a seven year covenant
you see where I am confused as to how to place manchild as referring to Jesus ?
also reading " and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven ,and did cast them to the earth (refers to Lucifer and ,one third of the angels threw in their lot with him stars represent angels because verse 9 tells us so . Reading it in referenc to the time and what it says I read the manchild as those who come to Jesus back in chapter 7 ...those who washed their robes when it speaks of the tribulation saints


so what happens with them ?

[Elijah's Mantle]

The woman is the bride, Isreal IMHO

yep I agree

who is the manchild ? is it the tribulation saints of chapter 7 or is it Jesus facing off with a dragon fixing to devour him as soon as he is born
yes I believe Israel under Jesus Christ will fill the role in the coming millennial reign, when it speaks of
'who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron'

those of chapter 7 yeah that makes sense

[Elijah's Mantle]

would you happen to know "IF" the term manchild is used in any other scripture found anywhere that references Jesus Christ in the term of manchild ?

I see that word as applicable to saved mankind
not our savior because he (Jesus) is referenced as "SON"
I am stuck with understanding it written in Rev 12:5 as it meaning Jesus for a few reasons evident as I read on

[Elijah's Mantle]

I am stuck
and I thank you for your help so far with this passage
I am stuck

[micah719]

manchild = Son of Man

The woman is Israel, not the Bride.

The Lord Jesus spoke clearly about this in the Olivet discourse...."let the reader understand"....

[Elijah's Mantle]

thanks for that input Micah719
Ive come to conclude that this specific passage of scripture is
a interpretative one .

precisely because it does not spell out specifically
who ? the manchild Is .

There is at least three different answers about it and so I will not attempt to
interpret it specific in studying on the actual correct answer .

It is just not there totally
many could present their interpretive view how they read it and what they believe it says
and another would interpret it totally different and that is why I am simply stuck with this specific
passage

the woman is Israel not the bride

you could be very right on that part
do you have anything more helpful to explain on or for the term manchild ?

[mattfivefour]

There is, as usual, a lot of confusion surrounding the message of Revelation. Perhaps I can help a little.

We have to realize that not all of Revelation is future. It portrays the entire span of the history of God's dealings with Creation, from past to future. It's central theme is to reveal Jesus Christ in all of it. I hold to the view of the majority of the great expositors of centuries past who viewed the manchild of Revelation 12:5 as Jesus Christ, but "not Christ, literally and personally considered," says John Gill, "or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the Church." This yet again confirms that the church is caught up before the Tribulation. I say this because, as you read the 12th chapter of Revelation (and recognizing that all is not chronological in the account), you will see that in verses 1-2 the woman, Israel, is introduced. clearly this is in times past. Then in verses 3-4 we see Satan rebelling and being thrown out of heaven with a third of the angels. This, too, is clearly past. And then in verses 5-6 we see the following information: "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days." This refers to the three and a half year period during the Tribulation when Israel will be protected by God. The catching up is prior to this.

And to the objection that the manchild (or male child) cannot be the Church because the Word says "he will rule with a rod of iron", I would point out that Christ will be indistinguishable from his raptured and resurrected saints, they being in such perfect communion with Him and He with them; and, in fact, Revelation says that His saints will actually sit on His throne with Him (Revelation 3:21) and that when He comes back to take up His 1000 year reign, his saints will rule with Him (Revelation 20:6).

However, if an expositor chooses to interpret the passage as referring to Christ rather than Christ in His church, I have no problem with that. And, ultimately, as I often remark on these issues, as interesting as they are they have no impact on either our salvation or our sanctification. We are saved exclusively by what Christ did at Calvary, we are being sanctified by that same finished work, and we shall be glorified only because of it. It is all done. And, to me, the chief message of Revelation from an earthly point of view is to demonstrate that there is nothing left that needs to be done to secure God's victory or our eternal lot. It has all already been done. All of it! God is victor! And we shall dwell in eternal communion with Him. Revelation clearly describes a finished work in Heaven and eternity. But here in time and space it yet has to be revealed in actuality, though it has already been finished in truth.

I hope this helps a little.

[micah719]

The Revelation is like a skeleton, and the OT is the flesh you put on it. If you haven't read the OT, The Revelation won't mean much to you at all.

One course of research is to look into the Mazeroth...though that is not Scripture and has been corrupted into the Zodiac. The Jews from Chaldea knew it though, and were right on time to follow His star and come worship The Lord in Bethlehem. Pagans sorcerors wouldn't travel great distances to worship The King of the Jews, The Lord Jesus Christ...they were Messianic Jews.

Rev 12:3 The dragon with seven heads and ten horns....go to Daniel 7:7, it's the devil.

Rev 12:5 The male Child...go to Psalm 2:8-9, Psalm 110:2, Matthew 26:64, Daniel 7:13, Acts 2:34, 1 Cor 15:25, Rev 19:15...it is The Lord Jesus.

As to the woman, compare Rev 12 with Dan 7 and 12, look at the 3.5 years. No doubt about it, the woman is Israel. I'd look up more, there's plenty, but my computer is freaking out again. Where's the hammer....if that doesn't fix it, it must be elektrikal....or something....

[Elijah's Mantle]

yes Mattfivefour and Micah719 that does help
I agree it does not affect salvation or sanctification

We have to realize that not all of Revelation is future.

that is probably why I got stuck with the passage
I was thinking it was (future)

and when you say
" she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days." This refers to the three and a half year period during the Tribulation when Israel will be protected by God. The catching up is prior to this.

ooh OK that was also something I was thinking on and answers the other question I was needing to ask about it this helps a whole bunch Thank you both

[Elijah's Mantle]

when it speaks of the place prepared by God , that is petra
and you know whats more interesting about petra
it is ancient place, located over in Jordan ,and it is empty mostly and so it is
like waiting for it's time of purpose already , and when it tells about the they that feed
the woman for 1,260 days it must be telling us it could be the Arabs of Jordan I dont know .
and then it speaks about the war in heaven ........ when it says that is it about the mystery being
finished ? still do we actually know what is the mystery ? still the best news is
and prevailed not which tells satan looses

[Elijah's Mantle]

why does God let satan loose again later on nto chapter 20 ?
I do realize Jesus made disciples and the followers who were with him
and was taught by him had much to learn about spiritual matters and was
disciplined . Yet what is the reason satan gets loosed again ?

[Elijah's Mantle]

I kinda skipped forward to much ahead
not good
I think of Islam when I read about the beast and those who kill
by the sword and the radicals of Islam even in their book the quran
do tend to fit the description real well
It is quite shocking what they actually believe and say