Help, I have been put down

[Virginia]

I was put down by a friend for stating that one sin is no greater then another, meaning murdering someone is no greater a sin then stealing from someone accoding to God. Each sin carries the same value.

I read this in the old testiment. Dose anyone know where I can find it. Also, I think the Apostle Paul mentioned it too in one of his letters.

[mikhen7]

I was put down by a friend for stating that one sin is no greater then another, meaning murdering someone is no greater a sin then stealing from someone accoding to God. Each sin carries the same value.

I read this in the old testiment. Dose anyone know where I can find it. Also, I think the Apostle Paul mentioned it too in one of his letters.

In Matthew 5:21-28, Jesus equates committing adultery with having lust in your heart and committing murder with having hatred in your heart. However, this does not mean the sins are equal. What Jesus was trying to get across to the Pharisees is that sin is still sin even if you only want to do the act, without actually carrying it out. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day taught that it was okay to think about anything you wanted to, as long as you did not act on those desires. Jesus is forcing them to realize that God judges a person’s thoughts as well as his actions. Jesus proclaimed that our actions are the result of what is in our hearts (Matthew 12:34).

So, although Jesus said that lust and adultery are both sins, that does not mean they are equal. It is much worse to actually murder a person than it is to simply hate a person, even though they are both sins in God’s sight. There are degrees to sin. Some sins are worse than others. At the same time, in regard to both eternal consequences and salvation, all sins are the same. Every sin will lead to eternal condemnation (Romans 6:23). All sin, no matter how “small,” is against an infinite and eternal God, and is therefore worthy of an infinite and eternal penalty. Further, there is no sin too “big” that God cannot forgive it. Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2). Jesus died for all of our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). Are all sins equal to God? Yes and no. In severity? No. In penalty? Yes. In forgivability? Yes.

See Also: Are all sins equal to God?

[readytogo]

I would bring up James 2:10.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

In other words, if you steal, you are also guilty of murder (and a host of other sins). This is why we need salvation through Christ. A person might confess being guilty of theft, but they probably wouldn't repent of the other laws because they think that if they haven't done it, it doesn't apply to them.

[Robert]

I was put down by a friend for stating that one sin is no greater then another, meaning murdering someone is no greater a sin then stealing from someone accoding to God. Each sin carries the same value.

I read this in the old testiment. Dose anyone know where I can find it. Also, I think the Apostle Paul mentioned it too in one of his letters.

There's a difference between correcting someone in the spirit of Christ and just insulting them:

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality." ( Romans 12:9-13, NASB, emphasis mine)


Your "friend" may want to read this then:

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The Tongue: A Deadly Weapon


In the history of mankind, there is one weapon above all others that has done more damage, has split apart more homes, cost more people their lives and livelihoods, has destroyed relationships and friendships, and has racked up a horrific toll in terms of human cost. This weapon is not made of steel or iron, yet is sharper than the keenest blade. It is not manufactured by the hands of men, yet is is common everywhere. This deadly weapon is possessed by young and old alike. It does not fire projectiles, yet what it fires does FAR more damage than any arrow or bullet ever could. And is used with such disregard by their owners' that were a license needed to carry it, most would not be allowed to have it.


What is this fearsome weapon that plagues mankind?

The human tongue.

James wrote about this devastating weapon back in his day, and the effects it can have upon those unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of it:

" When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water." (James 3:3-12, NIV)

When we speak, we have the power to praise, curse, heal or harm. yet many times, we do not take full measure of this ability, and often we will end up saying things that sooner should not have been said. In fact, there are times we will hurt someone with our words, and not try to even repair the damage we have caused, all because we are too busy uttering words rather than measuring what we say to one another. And all too often, hearts are injured and people are torn to shreds by careless words, spoken out of anger or spite, or even in jest though we may not realize it at the time. And though it takes only a few moments to say them, the harm that can be done in that span of time can take A LOT LONGER to heal!

Jesus himself had to warn us about our words:

"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. ” " (Matthew 12:34-35, NIV)

Jesus then makes it clear that our words proceed from our hearts:

"But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’” (Matthew 15:18-20 NIV)

What we think and feel is what we are going to end up saying. And if we are saying something behind someone's back, or something that is harmful to another, then what does that say about our hearts and minds? Is this something that Jesus would do to someone if he were to talk to them?

When Jesus spoke to someone, he never did so to intentionally hurt them or cause them harm. Yes, some of the things he said may have caused pain, but he did so out of a heart of LOVE, not of spite or hatred. He often had harsh replies for the Pharisees, but these replied were not to get revenge upon them or to strike back at them; Jesus often had to rebuke them for their errors and their callous hearts:

"“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.""(Matthew 23:13, NIV)

It was not Jesus who would use cruel words in a callous way, but the Pharisees who had hardened hearts and cared for no one outside their own "bubbles." In a like manner, we can often react much the same way, becoming callous and inconsiderate of others when we speak, or even in our thoughts about them. And it doesn't stop at our direct conversations with them; talking ABOUT someone can damage them just as surely as if we fired the verbal salvo directly at them. Gossip is insidious, and does great deal of damage to a person, many times without the person who has been gossiped about even realizing it!!!

"And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not." (1 Timothy 5:13, KJV)

Even moreso, when we give our word and then don't try to keep it we cause damage to a person AND ourselves. We will often speak hastily and give our word, only to realize that we are unable to keep the promise or pledge. Nowhere is this more apparent than when we promise to follow the Lord without counting what it will cost to do so:

"“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’ “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? "" (Luke 14:28-31, NIV)

We need to realize the AWESOME power that words have, and the effect and the ramifications they can have on people. In fact, the Lord puts so much emphasis on what we say, that he tells us in scripture:

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:36-37, KJV)

We need to make sure that in our communications with one another, that we are holding to what scripture has instructed us. No greater damage can be done to a person than when we fail to heed what God has told us, only to reap the bitter harvest that results from disobedience. We see every day the power that words have upon one another, and the sheer harm and grief a few poorly-chosen words can do.


A heart hurt by harmful words needs care indeed; we would do best never to cause that harm to begin with.


YBIC,

-Robert

[Meg]

Well said Robert. I was thinking much the same thing, but you said it much better than I would have. I have this Scripture to add on the question concerning one sin being worse than another:

1 John 5:16-17

16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Sheesh, now that Adrian's been Called to other matters, the rest of us are going to have to get good at this! (I said that because I really wish I knew more about that Scripture I just posted than I actually do...)

[Meg]

This is from John MacArthur and its good:

Walking by the Spirit--Part 1* -* John MacArthur

[Virginia]

Matthew 5, 21, & 22 dose not answere my question. Reference to Basic Theology by Charles Ryrie is confusing. He indicates that some sins are not equal or have a different degree. I find nothing in the Bible that supports that concept, Yet in the same breath he says that all sins are the same. Is there a different meaning for equal and same in this context? I say no. Regardless, a sin is a sin, is a sin, and all lead to death.

[Carl]

Genesis chapter 3 spells out much of what you are asking. Eve listened to the serpent and did eat of the tree of knowlege of good and evil. Her sin was to disobey God since He told Adam not to eat that fruit, and she knew that.

The punishment for that was death. Spiritual death now and physical death later. Looking at sin that way, the punishment is always the same, - - death. Commit just one sin and you are dead!

The scripture mentioned by readytogo: James 2:10, also indicates that a sin is commited in one area it is the same as breaking all the laws. But it leads to the same punishment: death.

From the punishment criteria there is no difference between sins. Either a sin is committed or not, so all sins are equal in that they will keep you out of Heaven.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Is there a different meaning for equal and same in this context? I say no. Regardless, a sin is a sin, is a sin, and all lead to death.

think

The scripture mentioned by readytogo: James 2:10, also indicates that a sin is commited in one area it is the same as breaking all the laws. But it leads to the same punishment: death.
your on the right path Virginia your friend really should not have put you down for it
often when things of the nature of what you had happen is because the other person needs
to get to reading the book personally . There is a lot of sincere people out there and sometimes
they are sincerely wrong but put others down for it Ive encountered it before myself and
find comfort in the word , to live as peaceably with all as possible .... sometimes its tuff though

[myinnuendo999]

I might be wrong but I think sin all sin is (equal) in the sense that any ONE sin will send you to hell. So sin in that sense is equal because sin is sin.

However, I think that God's word indicates that there are some sins that are more grevious than others and worse. The reason why I say this is because God's word clearly says that there are different degrees of punishment in hell.

Also the reason why I say this is because God's word says that certain sins are an abomination---such as homosexuality -Lev 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them."

so anyways, that's my

[GlennO]

Virginia-

Robert and mikhen point you in the right direction (and may be all you need as I am late into this).

Something that we lose track of, is just how enormous the sin debt placed upon Jesus really was. Because of the mystery of the Trinity (Jesus is fully man & fully God) He faithfully and perfectly met the Father's standard for cleansing All of us for All our sins. We are white as snow. Since He is God eternal and self-existent, his is not bound by time any more than He is bound by gravity. He sees the beginning and the end and He has never had to say “Oops I didn’t see that one coming”.

Therefore big sin, or little sin, All sin is accounted for. The sin of pride, arrogance, the sin of retribution when we are mocked are All accounted for and paid. Even the sins you cannot imagine you would ever commit are accounted for. The lashes, the hammer blows through His flesh, the beatings and blows to His body and the humiliation were nothing compared to His separation from the Father.

Carrying an awareness of the huge shadow of the cross in our steps and conversations is something we must strive for, but being finite cracked clay pots we can only hope to keep our eye on the prize intermittently. I confess even in this wonderful fellowship of the RF virtual church family, there are still times and folks that can push my "button". I believe how quickly we can let go of injustices or slights we suffer (real or perceived) is a good indicator of our spiritual progress.

Hope this adds to the topic...

[Virginia]

Thank you all for your help. Carl and Elijah's Mantle gave me James 2: 10 which is very close to what I was looking for. If I quoted that to the person who put me down, they wouldn't get it. Mostly by their own choice.

[Mensh]

What is everyone's response to this scripture?

Matthew 11:20-24
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

My conclusion is that it only takes one sin to break God's law and suffer eternal punishment. The text above suggests to me that there still may be differences or levels of punishment when God judges and sends a soul to hell.

Virginia, I'm sorry that you felt put down by your friend. That is not my intention here. I want to address your question with scripture. That is all. God bless.

[Kist]

When I hear this kind of arguement I always get a feeling the person that does not want to say all sin are equal is trying to justify it's own sin. How many times do we not hear, oh but my sin is not that big after all it's not like I killed or hurt someone. Funnily enough when witnessing to atheists you'll get the same responses, they always say I'm a good person. The other day I was witnessing to this Homosexual guy and he did not want to give up on his sin as was clear from the start. His reasoning was the same as this one, in the light of everything in the world mine isn't bad afterall I'm only loving someone. Regardless of this discussion it shouldn't matter to a Christian weither or not a sin is a big sin, or a small sin. A sin is something that grieves God and so we should strive, with His help in continuing prayer, not to sin, not even in the slightest(which is a life long battle which will include falling, and repenting). A Christian that does not strive to be free of sin, should pray on weither or not they are truly saved.

[Meg]

What is everyone's response to this scripture?

Matthew 11:20-24
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

My conclusion is that it only takes one sin to break God's law and suffer eternal punishment. The text above suggests to me that there still may be differences or levels of punishment when God judges and sends a soul to hell.

Virginia, I'm sorry that you felt put down by your friend. That is not my intention here. I want to address your question with scripture. That is all. God bless.

I think that what Matthew is describing is an indifference to the Lord committed by people who should have known better. In this case, the Jews in question should have known that only God could accomplish what Jesus Christ was doing right before their eyes, so what He was condemning them for was willful rebellion. Thats my opinion anyway.

[mattfivefour]

I agree, Meg. Jesus had done in those towns exactly what it had been prophesied Messiah would do, but they rejected Him. Thus their sin was worse than that of those who had never seen Him. To reject Christ is to commit the sin from which there is no salvation, for if salvation is in Christ alone and you reject Him, what hope have you? None. That is a lesson for all who look at Jesus but disregard His claims because they would rather believe what pleases them than have to surrender their lives and submit themselves to God.

[Meg]

I agree, Meg. Jesus had done in those town exactly what it had been prophesied Messiah would do, but they rejected Him. Thus their sin was worse than that of those who had never seen Him. To reject Christ is to commit the sin from which their is no salvation, for if salvation is in Christ alone and you reject Him, what hope have you? None. That is a lesson for all who look at Jesus but disregard His claims because they would rather believe what pleases them than have to surrender their lives and submit themselves to God.

Amen and Amen!

Beyond that, thank you Adrian. It is such a relief to know that I'm understanding these things correctly, having heard so much about so many getting misled. How many times have I prayed to the Lord to not let me miss any cues. Indeed He has been very faithful, and studying His Word first hand has been very beneficial!

[Mensh]

When I hear this kind of arguement I always get a feeling the person that does not want to say all sin are equal is trying to justify it's own sin. How many times do we not hear, oh but my sin is not that big after all it's not like I killed or hurt someone. Funnily enough when witnessing to atheists you'll get the same responses, they always say I'm a good person. The other day I was witnessing to this Homosexual guy and he did not want to give up on his sin as was clear from the start. His reasoning was the same as this one, in the light of everything in the world mine isn't bad afterall I'm only loving someone. Regardless of this discussion it shouldn't matter to a Christian weither or not a sin is a big sin, or a small sin. A sin is something that grieves God and so we should strive, with His help in continuing prayer, not to sin, not even in the slightest(which is a life long battle which will include falling, and repenting). A Christian that does not strive to be free of sin, should pray on weither or not they are truly saved.

Just to be clear, this is what I said: "My conclusion is that it only takes one sin to break God's law and suffer eternal punishment. The text above suggests to me that there still may be differences or levels of punishment when God judges and sends a soul to hell."

I agree with you that only one sin is enough to send someone to hell. Romans 6:23. All are guilty of sin Romans 3:23. My point was, a non-Christian that goes to hell may suffer differently. I used the passage of Matthew 11:20-24 where the word JUDGEMENT is used twice. This is not a judgment for believers but rather a judgment for the wicked. I asked this question as I have studied Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum and he uses this passage to show that just as there will be rewards for Christians in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:10), there will be different punishments for the wicked in hell.

Here is another passage:

John 19:10-11
10So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?"

11Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

I apologize for jumping into a discussion without having posted before. I know new posters on forums are often treated with distrust (for which I understand somewhat). As a way of intro - I have been a Christian since my youth. Although my username might be misleading, I'm a woman. I'm currently in a SBC church. I'm a pre-trib, pre-mill, dispensationalist. I don't post often, but read a lot. Maranatha.

[Steve1300]

Mensh, thanks for your post. Great illustration.

[mattfivefour]

I agree, Steve. Mensh has made a good point. In fact there are some very good replies in this thread.

I think the scriptural summary of this topic is that all sin leads to death, and faith in Christ alone leads to life; but as there are different degrees of reward in Heaven, there are different degrees of punishment in Hell.