Question About The Meaning Of Judah And Israel

[Meg]

I am working in Lamentations this morning, and thinking about the new age contamination of the modern church. Is it safe to say through exegesis that Judah represents the church under Christ, since Jesus Christ is of the tribe of Judah? If yes, what does Israel represent?

[mattfivefour]

Not specifically related to an exegesis of Lamentations but nonetheless good background reading, I recommend Dr. Thomas McCall's essay at Israel and the Church: the Differences

[Meg]

Thank you Matt. The Lamentations piece came together anyway, but I will go read that article, because I need to know.

[Meg]

I knew the Church and Israel are different, and I understood that replacement theology is wrong (thanks in large part to RR ministries), but I am certain that the modern apostate church fell for the same deception that the Jews did in their time for the same basic reasons.

There's something about a dual fulfillment of OT prophecy applying to the time it was written and also to the End Times (ie recent events), which is why I asked about Judah possibly representing the Church as phrased in the OP.

[mikhen7]

I knew the Church and Israel are different, and I understood that replacement theology is wrong (thanks in large part to RR ministries), but I am certain that the modern apostate church fell for the same deception that the Jews did in their time for the same basic reasons.

There's something about a dual fulfillment of OT prophecy applying to the time it was written and also to the End Times (ie recent events), which is why I asked about Judah possibly representing the Church as phrased in the OP.

Just for fun:

Zech 8:23

“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Future! :)

God Bless

[Meg]

Just for fun:

Zech 8:23

“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Future! :)

God Bless

That sounds somewhere mid-trib to me.

[mattfivefour]

No, I believe it has to be post-Trib, post-Return because that entire section of the prophecy reads:

20“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21‘The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, “Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go.” 22‘So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.’ 23“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

To me this indicates Christ has returned, set up His 1000 year reign and is ruling in Jerusalem.

[Meg]

That view strikes me as odd, because the whole tone of the prophecy implies desperation

22‘So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.’ 23“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’

Doesn't "entreat favor" imply a desperate need of some sort?

[mattfivefour]

Yes. And who is it desperately entreating favor? It is the people of the nations. the Gentile nations. Surely those who have rejected Him and have despised Israel now know the truth and are desperate that they be forgiven for their acts against Him and against His people.

[Meg]

I thought that after the Second Coming, all that mess would be over, and we'd get that stellar chance to see how life works without the burdens of sin...

[mattfivefour]

Satan may be bound, but human nature is still human nature, surely. Those on the earth are not receiving glorified bodies, after all. The perfect earth does not come until the end of the millennium, the final loosing of Satan, and the destruction of the current earth and heavens and the creation of a new earth and heavens. (Revelation 20:7-15; 2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 3:12; Revelation 21:1)

And the guilt these people of the nations will feel in the knowledge that the Son of God is reigning on earth will provoke their fear. Even if they were never to sin again (which, by the way, the Bible does not teach regarding the residents of the millennial kingdom) they would still have this guilt and the fear it produces. Hence their begging for forgiveness and their desperate desire to have Jews intercede for them with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who is sitting on His Throne in their city of Jerusalem ruling the nations with a rod of iron. (Psalm 2:9; Revelation 2:27; 12:5; 19:15)

[Meg]

OK, Matt, I have never heard any of that before, I mean I have read the Scriptures, of course, but I never understood that part. Can you post a good link or something, or recommend a commentary?

[mattfivefour]

I came to my understanding of this topic—as I usually do all topics—through through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit as I combed His Word and meditated on it. But I can recommend a few reputable theologians and teachers who I later found came to the same views. How about two to start?

Arthur Pink wrote the following on this subject:

The Millennium in relation to Sin.

Arthur W. Pink

In spite of the fact that Satan will have been removed from the earth, and that Christ reigns in person over it, yet conditions here will not be perfect even in the Millennium. Unregenerate human nature will remain unchanged. Sin will still be present, though much of its outward manifestation will be restrained. Discontent and wickedness will not be eradicated from the hearts of men, but will be kept beneath the surface by means of the Iron Rod. Multitudes will yield to Christ nothing but a "feigned obedience" (Ps. 18:44, margin). This "feigned obedience" will be the product of power not grace; it will be the fruit of fear not love. In Psalm 72, which gives a graphic picture of millennial conditions, we read, "They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before Him; and His enemies shall lick the dust" (vs.9). Again, we are told in Psalm 110:2 that the Lord shall rule in the midst of "enemies." In Psalm 149, wherein the children of Zion are bidden to "be joyful in their King," we are told that His saints shall "execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all His saints. Praise ye the Lord" (vss. 7-9). In Micah 5, where we have another description of the judgments which the remnant of Jacob will execute upon the Gentiles, we are told, "And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people, as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off" (vss. 8-10). These verses do not conflict with those Scriptures which speak of great blessings, spiritual as well as temporal, coming upon the Gentiles during the Millennium, but warn us that the Kingdom age is not the Perfect State, and that while most if not all will worship outwardly, yet at heart many are still the enemies of the Lord.

At the close of the Millennium Satan will be temporarily released from his prison in order to test humanity: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went upon the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:7-9). Thus will be fully and finally demonstrated the incurable evil of the human heart. Even a thousand years of millennial blessedness, with Satan away from the earth, will not effect any change in man. Let Satan be loosed and allowed to go forth once more and deceive the nations, and it shall be seen that the carnal mind is still enmity against God, and prefers a Murderer to the Lord Jesus. Nothing avails short of a new creation. Miracles, a beneficent environment, temporal blessings - nothing without, can alter fallen and depraved human nature. "Except a man be born of water (the Word) and of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The final revolt of man under the leadership of the Devil will meet with swift judgment - "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" (Rev. 20:9). What follows is told us in few words. Satan himself is cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet are, and all of the unsaved dead from Cain onwards will be raised from their graves, to stand before the great white Throne and be judged according to their works. The purpose of this judgment is to determine their respective sentences, for there will be degrees of punishment among the lost, as there will be degrees of glory among the redeemed. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15). Oh, my reader, is your name written in the book of life? If it is not, there is nothing before you but a hopeless and endless eternity of suffering, of suffering so fearful that no human pen or tongue can adequately depict it.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire." Unsaved reader, what an awful prospect is thing! The day of reckoning fast hastens on. God is yet going to call you to account and take full satisfaction to His justice. Long have you defied Him, but soon He will put forth His power and deal with you in judgment. What He has threatened that will He most surely perform. The Lake of Fire! Eternal suffering! Tormented day and night for ever and ever! Such a portion will be unendurable, and yet it will have to be a endured by every Christ-rejector, and endured for ever and ever. "Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it" (Ezek. 22:14).

Following the great white Throne judgment and the casting of the host into the Lake of Fire, Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father, "when He shall have put down all rule, and all authority, and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. And when all things be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15:24,25,28; and see further Rev. 21:1-5).

And Dr. Thomas Ice wrote the following:

Why Literal Sacrifices in the Millennium

Dr. Thomas Ice

A common objection to the consistent literal interpretation of Bible prophecy is found in Ezekiel’s temple vision (Ezekiel 40-48). Opponents argue that if this is a literal, future temple, then it will require a return to the sacrificial system that Christ made obsolete since the prophet speaks of “atonement” (kiper) in Ezekiel. 43:13, 27; 45:15, 17, 20. This is true! Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ as presented in Hebrews 10.

Hank Hanegraaff says that I have “exacerbated the problem by stating that without animal sacrifices in the millennium, Yahweh’s holiness would be defiled. That, for obvious reasons, is blasphemous.” He further says that such a view constitutes a return “to Old Covenant sacrifices.”1


“Is it heretical to believe that a temple and sacrifices will once again exist,” ask John Schmitt and Carl Laney? “Ezekiel himself believed it was a reality and the future home of Messiah. Then, it becomes not heresy to believe that a temple and sacrifices will exist; rather, it is almost a heresy to not believe this, especially because it is a part of God’s infallible word. The burden on us is to determine how it fits — not its reality.”2 At least four other prophets join Ezekiel in affirming a sacrificial system in a millennial temple (Isaiah 56:7; 66:20-23; Jeremiah 33:18; Zechariah 14:16-21; Malachi 3:3-4), which supports a literal and thus futurist understanding of Ezekiel.
NEW COVENANT SACRIFICES

We do not believe that reinstituting sacrifices in a future dispensation will be a return to the Mosaic system of the Old Covenant. The Mosaic Law has forever been fulfilled and discontinued through Christ (Romans 6:14-15; 7:1-6; 1 Corinthians 9:20-21; 2 Corinthians 3:7-11; Galatians 4:1-7; 5:18; Ephesians 2-3; Hebrews 7:12; 8:6-7, 13; 10:1-14). The millennium will be a time in which Israel’s New Covenant will become the ruling jurisdiction (Deuteronomy 29:4; 30:6; Isaiah 59:20-21; 61:8-9; Jeremiah 31:31-40; 32:37-40; 50:4-5; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 16:60-63; 34:25-26; 36:24-32; 37:21-28; Zechariah 9:11; 12:10-14). Therefore, it will not be a time of returning to the old but of going forward to the new. “For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also” (Hebrews 7:12).

The new millennial law will contain a mixture of Mosaic-type laws with totally new non-Mosaic laws not found in the 613, under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant. Jesus the Messiah will be physically present instead of the Shechinah glory presence in conjunction with the ark of the covenant; a new priestly order from the sons of Zadok (Ezekiel 40:46; 43:19; 48:11) instead of the Levites; a new temple measuring one mile square (Ezekiel 40:48-41:26) instead of the much smaller Solomonic model. Randall Price tells us:

The previous section concerning the design of the altar of burnt offering (43:13-27) introduced the reinstitution of the sacrificial service, which continues in the subsequent chapters (44-46) with regulations for the Levitical priests and the various sacrifices to be offered for Israel’s atonement. Although detailed instructions concerning the institution of the sacrificial system appear for the first time in these chapters, frequent references to the practice have been made since the beginning of the prophecy (40:38-43, 46-47; 41:22; 42:13-14).Moreover, these references are not incidental, but intrinsic to the entire presentation of Ezekiel’s vision in chapters 40-48. For example, there is a statement concerning the sacrificial system in every chapter but one (chapter 47). These references include: “new moons and Sabbaths . . . all the appointed feasts” (Ezekiel 44:24; 45:17; 46:3, 11-12),“daily offerings” (Ezekiel 46:13-14), “burnt offerings, grain offerings, and the libations” (Ezekiel 45:17; 46:2, 4, 11-15), “blood sacrifices” (Ezekiel 43:20), an “altar” for burnt offering (Ezekiel 40:47; 43:13-27), an “altar” for incense offering (Ezekiel 41:22), “boiling places” to “boil the sacrifices of the people” (Ezekiel 46:23-24); a “Zadokite” priesthood to “offer Me the fat and the blood” (Ezekiel 40:46; 42:13-14: 43:19; 44:15-16; 48:11), a “Levitical” priesthood to “slaughter the burnt offering” (Ezekiel 44:10-11;48:22). Furthermore, the offerings are stated to be for “a sin offering” (Ezekiel 43:22, 25; 44:24, 29) and to “make atonement” (Ezekiel 43:20; 45:25). Since the sacrifices and sacrificial personnel are so prominent throughout these chapters, the treatment of the sacrifices cannot be avoided.3

WHY A TEMPLE AND SACRIFICES?

The purpose for a temple throughout Scripture has been to establish a location upon earth—which is under the curse of sin—for the presence of God that reveals through its ritual God’s great holiness. God’s plan for Israel includes a relation to them through a temple since He wants to dwell in the midst of His people. Currently the Church is God’s spiritual temple made of
living stones (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). The millennium will return history to a time when Israel will be God’s mediatory people but will also continue to be a time in which sin will be present upon the earth. Thus, God will include a new temple, a new priesthood, a new law, etc., at this future time because He will be present in Israel and still desires
to teach that holiness is required to approach Him. This is contrasted with the fact that no temple will exist in eternity (Revelation 21:22) because God and the Lamb are the temple since there will be no sin in heaven, thus no need for ritual cleansing.

The painstaking detail in Ezekiel 40-48 is similar to the instruction given to Moses for building the tabernacle and then to others for building the Solomonic temple. Such detail is meaningless unless taken literally as were the tabernacle and first two temples. If the detail was intended to be symbolic, the symbols are never explained, as is usually the case with genuine biblical symbolism. Because no textual basis exists for a non-literal interpretation, those attempting such explanations become subjective in their many and various guesses about the meaning of the passage.

It must be remembered that the levitical sacrifices of the Mosaic system are said by the Bible to “make atonement” as well (for example, Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35, etc.). If these sacrifices in the past actually atoned for the people’s sins, which, of course, they did not, then they would be equally blasphemous in light of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Hebrews 10:4 says, “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” Furthermore, there would have been no need for Christ’s once and for all atoning sacrifice if these past acts did the job.

So what do both past and future sacrifices accomplish if they don’t actually remove sin? These sacrifices provide ritual cleansing of the priests, sanctuary, and utensils. Only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross actually removes one’s sin. Jerry Hullinger provides a solution that:

...deals honestly with the text of Ezekiel, and in no way demeans the work Christ did on the cross. This study suggests that animal sacrifices during the millennium will serve primarily to remove ceremonial uncleanness and prevent defilement from polluting the temple envisioned by Ezekiel. This will be necessary because the glorious presence of Yahweh will once again be dwelling on earth in the midst of a sinful and unclean people.

Because of God’s promise to dwell on earth during the millennium (as stated in the New Covenant), it is necessary that He protect His presence through sacrifice... It should further be added that this sacrificial system will be a temporary one in that the millennium (with its partial population of unglorified humanity) will last only one thousand years.4

Critics of future millennial sacrifices seem to assume that all sacrifices, past and future, always depict Christ’s final sacrifice for sin. They do not! There were various purposes for sacrifice in the Bible. Many of the sacrifices under the Mosaic system were purification rituals. This is why atonement can be said in the past to be effective, yet still need Christ’s future sacrifice, because many of the sacrifices did atone ceremonially, cleansing participants and objects in temple ritual. In Ezekiel 43:20 and 26, the atonement is specifically directed at cleansing the altar in order to make it ritually clean. The other uses of atonement also refer to cleansing objects so that ritual purity may be maintained for proper worship (Ezekiel 45:15, 17, 20).

A MEMORIAL

Many who take a literal interpretation of these sacrifices also believe that they will serve as a memorial to Christ’s once-for-all atoning work. Yet, critics believe this to be a flawed conclusion. Support for a future memorial aspect can be seen in the fact that our current observation of the Lord’s Supper includes this aspect (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Under the Mosaic system — which looked ahead — many times various temple sacrifices are specifically called “memorials” (Exodus 30:16; Leviticus 2:2, 9; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Numbers 5:15, 18, 26). Such terminology could in fact be the basis for our current Church Age understanding of remembering the Lord’s death adopted by Paul. The Mosaic memorial aspect clearly supports viewing future Temple sacrifices in this way, as millennial believers look back upon Christ’s sacrificial provision.
CONCLUSION

The presence and purpose of millennial sacrifices neither diminish the finished work of Christ, nor violates the literal interpretation of these prophetic passages. Nothing in Ezekiel 40-48 conflicts with the death of Christ or New Testament teaching at any point. The supposed contradictions between a literal understanding of Ezekiel and New Testament doctrine evaporate when examined specifically and harmonized. Although there will be millennial sacrifices, the focus of all worship will remain on the person and work of the Savior. The millennial temple and its ritual will serve as a daily reminder of fallen man’s need before a Holy God and lessons about how this same God lovingly works to remove the obstacle of human sin for those who trust Him. Maranatha!

[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]

ENDNOTES

1 John Schmitt and Carl Laney, Messiah’s Coming Temple: Ezekiel’s Prophetic Vision of the Future Temple (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1997), p. 181.
2 Hank Hanegraaff, The Apocalypse Code (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2007), pp. 268-69.
3 Randall Price, Unpublished Notes on The Prophecies of Ezekiel, (2007), pp. 70-71.
4 Jerry Hullinger,“The Problem of Animal Sacrifices in Ezekiel 40-48” Bibliotheca Sacra (July-September 1995, Vol. 152,No. 607), pp. 281, 289.

Hope these help answer your questions. Any more, just let me know.

[Meg]

Um, please don't tell me we're all stuck with our sin natures intact for another 1000 years. I'm tired already...

[mattfivefour]

Um, please don't tell me we're all stuck with our sin natures intact for another 1000 years. I'm tired already...

No, because we receive our incorruptible bodies when we are Raptured. It is those left behind and who survive the Great Tribulation (along with all those born during the Millennial Reign) who have the sin nature. Not us any longer.

[king'sbloomingrose]

And for that I'm truly thankful!

[Meg]

No, because we receive our incorruptible bodies when we are Raptured. It is those left behind and who survive the Great Tribulation (along with all those born during the Millennial Reign) who have the sin nature. Not us any longer.

Had me going there! That and thanks to you I have enough homework to keep me busy all weekend

[mikhen7]

Great posts Adrian. God Bless you Meg! Adrian I believe as you do, that the sin nature will still be prevalent in those that are in the earthly bodies that populate the earth after the tribulation ends and after the Millennium begins. But lets remember the judgment of the sheepand the goats of Mt. 25. All those that enter into the Millenial kingdom will be saved. But they will bear children and resume life with Christ ruling on the Throne of David. These new offspring will need to repent when they come of age and worship Christ as king. The whole reason Satan is bound and not cast into the LOF at the end of the trib is because so many will once again forget God and not go to Jerusalem to worship. That will again require a Separation of those who trust God and those who do not. Only this time they cannot blame Satan for their rebellion. That separational cleansing of the saved and the lost will occur at the time Satan is unleashed and hordes of people follow him to fight against the Lord Rev. 20:7-10. It is absolutely amazing and tells us a lot about our sin nature and how soon humanity can defect, even with Christ on the throne!

I knew that post would stir the fire. When the Millennium begins each of the nations will be required to worship the Lord Jesus in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:16-21). The picture from Zechariah is a delegation of sorts from the gentiles grasping hold of the sleeve of the Jew because it is there that the Lord will be fullfilling His rule sitting on the Throne of David. It is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic, Jacobic, and David covenants that were always unconditional (Rom. 9:6-9 speaks of many who thought God had broken His covenant promises).

Paul said it best when he said:

Romans 11:25-27,
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

The key is here in what Adrian posted by Dr Thomas Ice:

The millennium will be a time in which Israel’s New Covenant will become the ruling jurisdiction (Deuteronomy 29:4; 30:6; Isaiah 59:20-21; 61:8-9; Jeremiah 31:31-40; 32:37-40; 50:4-5; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 16:60-63; 34:25-26; 36:24-32; 37:21-28; Zechariah 9:11; 12:10-14). Therefore, it will not be a time of returning to the old but of going forward to the new. “For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also” (Hebrews 7:12).

We the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ during this period in our glorified bodies.

Here is an excerpt from my book coming out in December:

“ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,

“ That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

When the Lord returns to set up His kingdom, the society as we know it, with the political oppressions and its evils, will become non-existent. During this time, Satan is bound and wickedness is all but eradicated. The time of peace the world has longed for, will have finally come down to us from heaven. It is sad that so few are teaching it. The following lists just some things that are going to be commonplace in our future life with Christ on earth:

1. There will be unheralded Peace as the Curse placed upon the earth is finally removed. With Christ on the throne and Satan bound Peace will flow like a river. All creation will be at peace and the toxins that so many animals now possess will be removed, (Isa. 11:6-9; 65:24,25)
   
2. There will be unprecedented joy, healing, strength, prosperity, holiness, fearlessness, singing, and abundance (Isa. 35)
   
3. No more will one wait for an answer to prayer. It will come immediately (Isa. 30:19; 65:24)
   
4. The earth will be repopulated and children will again delight our hearts, (Zech. 10:8; Jer. 3:1-14; Isa. 60:22; 65:23)
   
5. We will labor in joy and without oppression, longevity will be restored as it was in the early days of earth (Isa. 60:21,22; 65:20-23)
   
6. The earth will abundantly produce (Isa.4:2; Ez. 47:9-12; Rev. 22:2)

Those are just some of what await the believer. How awesome the time will be. God in the greatness of His mercy has reserved a future for His children that will unlike anything in history. It would take another whole volume to describe the multitude of things the Lord has in store for those who love him. Tell your brother, tell your friend, spread the word far and wide, the Lord is coming and His reward is with Him!


So I not only look to the rapture but also for the awesome time we will have as we reign with Christ.

[ANY MINUTE]

Yes. And who is it desperately entreating favor? It is the people of the nations. the Gentile nations. Surely those who have rejected Him and have despised Israel now know the truth and are desperate that they be forgiven for their acts against Him and against His people.

As a new guy here can I ask a question? Still forever learning and a thought occurred while reading this thread. Does the sheep and goat judgment happen at the end of tribulation/beginning of the Millennium?
I thought that this judgment was to separate the remaining people who survive tribulation, believers from the unbelievers. Mat. 25:46 the "goats" going away into everlasting punishment. I understand the sheep to be nations who help the "brethren", the Jewish Remnant. Are you saying that those who reject Christ will continue on into the Millennium?

I guess I thought the millennium would start off with the sealed Jewish Remnant, surviving Trib.-Saints, resurrected Old Test.- Saints, Trib. Martyrs, and of course Christ and those who He brings(Church- now w/glorified bodies). I may be missing some here.
All that to say, I guess I thought everyone would start off as believers but future generations would again fall and reject Christ because of the still existent sin nature, to be done away with at the final battle at the end of the Millennium.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, can someone help? Don't mean to derail, thought it tied in with the discussion.



Just read last post sent while I was typing mine.

[mikhen7]

As a new guy here can I ask a question? Still forever learning and a thought occurred while reading this thread. Does the sheep and goat judgment happen at the end of tribulation/beginning of the Millennium?
I thought that this judgment was to separate the remaining people who survive tribulation, believers from the unbelievers. Mat. 25:46 the "goats" going away into everlasting punishment. I understand the sheep to be nations who help the "brethren", the Jewish Remnant. Are you saying that those who reject Christ will continue on into the Millennium?

I guess I thought the millennium would start off with the sealed Jewish Remnant, surviving Trib.-Saints, resurrected Old Test.- Saints, Trib. Martyrs, and of course Christ and those who He brings(Church- now w/glorified bodies). I may be missing some here.
All that to say, I guess I thought everyone would start off as believers but future generations would again fall and reject Christ because of the still existent sin nature, to be done away with at the final battle at the end of the Millennium.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, can someone help? Don't mean to derail, thought it tied in with the discussion.

Yes you are correct. The judgment of the Sheep and the Goats ocurrs, I believe, during the 75 day period between the end of the trib and the begginning of the Millennium. All who enter are saved!

Dan 12: 11-13:

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The tribulation is two periods of 1260 days each or two each times and a time and 1/2 a time. But here in Daniel he mentions from the mid point of the trib. until the beginning of the Millenium is 1335 days. 1335-1260 = 75. I say this because the Trib is seven years long. Daniel adds a month in the second half here. At any rate this interim period is where the Sheep and goats happens and the earth is cleansed and brought into a righteous state.

God Bless