Question About The Meaning Of Judah And Israel

[mattfivefour]

I was just thinking that in relation to the discussion about Isreal and the church... Dr. McGee said that God's running two different programs simultaneously. He started His program for the nation of Israel and led them all thru the OT. Then when they rejected Him and their Messiah then God turned to the Gentiles. That's where He is right now, saving Jews and Gentiles to be His bride, the Church. But then God will take the Church to Heaven and He'll finish up what He started with the nation of Israel. They will then after the Tribulation, turn back to God and He will be the Shepard of His people Israel once again on this earth.

Holly, I believe Dr. McGee to be right on target with what he has said!

[the stranger]

Deffiently some good thoughts, friend! Can you think of any scripture that might help me clearly see these things?

[mattfivefour]

How about we let Dr. McGee himself speak?
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The Mystery of Israel's Blindness
J. Vernon McGee

Concerning the mystery of Israel's blindness, Paul states: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25). Why is Israel an enemy of the Gospel in this age and blinded in unbelief? Paul answers this by stating that Israel had sought after the "law of righteousness" but had not attained it "because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law, for they stumbled at that stumbling-stone" which is Christ (Rom. 9:31-33).

Jesus was to go first unto His own house, the nation of Israel, "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16). John states that Jesus "came unto His own, and his own received Him not" (John 1:11). Therefore, when Jesus was rejected by the rulers of the nation of Israel, He hid the treasure (Israel) again (Matt. 13:44). He later spoke to the chief priests and Pharisees concerning the Gentiles, "Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21:43). Even though He was rejected by His own people, He did not reject them, but paid the ultimate price at Calvary. He sold all He had to pay the redemption price for His treasure Israel.

The history of Israel's past, present, and future is given in the Book of Romans chapters 9-11. In Chapter 9 Paul explains Israel's past election in relation to God's sovereignty. In chapter 10 he explains Israel's present rejection in relation to God's righteousness and in chapter 11 Israel's future restoration as a nation.

Israel's Past Election

In Romans chapter 9 Paul discusses Israel's past election and the privileges God had given them as His treasure. They include: (1) Israel's adoption; (2) the glory on Mt. Sinai and the Holy of Holies; (3) the covenants, which included those with Abraham, Moses, and David; (4) the law, which was given to Israel at Mt. Sinai; (5) the service of the tabernacle and priesthood; (6) the promises to Israel concerning the coming kingdom; (7) the fathers of the nation of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob); and (8) Christ the Son of God, Israel's Messiah and Redeemer. Yet Israel failed to appreciate her privileges and "stumbled at that stumbling-stone" which was Christ (see 1 Pet. 2:8).

God's past election of Israel is based upon His sovereignty and whether we agree with His decision or not, God has chosen the nation of Israel to be His "peculiar treasure" (Ex. 19:5). Yet Israel has rejected God's righteousness and stumbled in unbelief. Israel was to be a light to the other nations, but ultimately failed to realize God's plans and purposes.

Israel's Present Rejection

In Romans chapter 10 Paul explains Israel's present setting aside in unbelief due to their "going about to establish their own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3). They failed to realize that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" (Rom. 10:4). Many professing Christians today are like Israel in that they have a religion, but no relationship. They are trying to establish their salvation on a works basis. Many are just as zealous and just as blind as Israel in relation to the "righteousness which is of faith" (Rom. 10:6).

During this age there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile (Rom. 10:12). Both must "confess," and "believe," (Rom. 10:9), and "call upon the name of the Lord" (Rom. 10:13) in order to be saved. In this age the Gentiles have responded by faith (Rom. 10:20); whereas, Israel has by their disobedience rejected the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:21). Therefore, during this dispensation God's "peculiar treasure" (Israel) has been temporarily hidden while the body of Christ is being completed (Rom. 11:25).

Israel's Future Restoration

In Romans chapter 11 Paul relates Israel's future restoration as a nation. Paul asks the question, "Hath God cast away His people?" and answers it with a definitive "God forbid" (Rom. 11:1). The present suspension of Israel is only temporary. Many today teach that the church has taken the place of Israel and that God's promises for Israel now find their completion within the church. Paul states that, "God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). The treasure is now hid but will be brought to light when God's plans and purposes for His church are completed. During the present age God has "a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

Paul asks another question in relation to Israel's setting aise, "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" (Rom. 11:11). Just as Israel's rejection has brought salvation to the Gentiles, their restoration will occasion great blessing for the world (Rom. 11:12-15). Paul then speaks concerning Israel as the good olive tree whose branches have been broken off in unbelief (Rom. 11:16-20). Paul states: "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee" (Rom. 11:21). J. Vernon McGee remarks that "since God did not spare the nation Israel when they apostasized, the argument is that He will not spare an apostate church." After the body of Christ is completed, God will call His Bride home and He will again deal with the nation of Israel. Through faith Israel will be grafted back into their own olive tree (Rom. 11:24)

Paul now comes to the restoration of the nation of Israel. The mystery is revealed that Israel is partially blinded until the "fulness of the Gentles be come in" (Rom. 11:25). Paul speaks here of the "fulness of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:25), while Luke speaks of the "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24). Are they similar? The "times of the Gentiles" began with the rise of the Babylonian Empire in 606 B.C. and will end with the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation period. Notice that in the last forty-two months of the Tribulation, the Gentiles will control the temple and the city of Jerusalem (Rev. 11:2b). Gentile dominion will end with the breaking in pieces of the image of Nebuchadnezzar by the stone "cut out without hands" symbolizing the everlasting kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (Dan. 2:34-35; 44-45). The "fulness of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:25) concerns the full number of Gentiles that will be saved during the church age which will complete the body of Christ (cf. Acts 15:14).

When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26). This does not mean that every Israelite will be saved, but relates to a remnant who have as individuals turned from their transgression (See Isa. 59:20-21). Notice that the conversion of Israel will issue in a new covenant (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:8-13) which will restore Israel to God's favor and blessing (Hos. 2:19-20) and result in their elevation to the head of the nations (Deut. 28:13; Jer. 31:38-40). Though Israel is at enmity with the Gospel today, they are still God's "peculiar treasure" and concerning their election, "they are beloved for the Father's sake" (Rom. 11:28).

In her book, The Study of the Parables, Ada Habershon notes that "the field, we know, is the world, and the Lord paid the price for the whole, not that He might gain possession of Israel only, but that He might have all His redeemed, every one for whom His death paid the price;..." We were all included in that purchase when Christ died at Calvary's cross, "for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). The mystery of Israel's blindness (Rom. 11:25) emphasizes God's plans and purposes in the restoration of Israel, when at last the Lord will possess His earthly treasure (See Amos 9:14; Acts 15:17).
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Bro, if you would like more, then I would recommend this sermon from Hosea 7 by Dr. McGee— http://www.oneplace.com/player/thru-...a-7-87158.html

[the stranger]

Thankyou Matt, very much for all of that information and scripture.

While the case of the nation of Israel, that is, those apart from Christ, being still a chosen people and nation, and just a delayed plan for their salvation as a whole, absalutely cannot be denied, I still wonder about a couple things.

Now with Romans chapture 9 and 10 I fully agree, but about chapture 11.

(Rom. 10:12) - Here you are making clear the case that all in Christ are the same, the renament of Jews, that is, those who are now saved, and all of the gentiles that are now saved.

(Luke 13:24-30) Now here we seem to see a same time frame when all of the Israelites that rejected Christ will see their, our, fathers of faith before them, and all of the gentiles, entering the Kingdom, although they will be thrown out.

This next one is kind of neat. (Romans 9:1-9) Kind of lengthy to read, but it seems to put the promises that were given to the Israelites unto the gentile believers as well, and taken away from the unbelievers, until they also come to Christ Jesus. Also (Romans 9:25-29) is interesting, as it relates to us being put together. (Romans 10:4)

But as you have made clear, there is still Israel as a whole that will come to Christ. (Romans 11:1-5 )( Romans 11:16-18 ) But it is still ofcourse, about believing (Romans 11:23)

I think it is clear that we have these groups
(1) saved Jews and Gentiles, the true Jews
(2) Jews, the nation of Israel, by bloodline, that are still not saved, but will be when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
(3) All gentiles that will be saved before Christ return

It seems to me the biggest difference we have is the timing. Where does it say that the tribulation period is for the unbelieving jews and gentiles and that believers will be raptured? Well, that could go further then we want, but I guess what I am trying to understand, as though I agree in the difference between the unbelieving nation of Israel and the saved, and that Israel as a whole will come to Christ when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, I cannot see two different periods of time here, brother. Now I guess alot of it could relate to ones meaning of the fullness of the gentiles.

All who will believe in Christ, God already forknows, right? Then He knows all of the gentiles that will believe and His first chosen nation, Israel, as a whole will believe at the end, as all of these will become part of the church of Christ, right? I just do not understand the church being gone, yet many gentiles and Jews being saved by the blood of the lamb, becoming the church, during this time frame. Especally when it is said that many that serve God will go through trial to be purified and made hole, that is, drawn closer to our father.

Anyway, feel free to disregard all of this, and I will certainly not be offended, as I really do appreciate all of the info you put up, but I just thought I would give you the questions that are my mind about this subject.

There is alot I do not know, and my only intent is to continue to learn. I get no thrill out of winning a debate, as it is worthless, and I believe those who believe they know all will be put to shame when Jesus does come, no matter what ones doctrine.

God bless you Matt, and thanks again for posting.

[king'sbloomingrose]

It seems to me the biggest difference we have is the timing. Where does it say that the tribulation period is for the unbelieving jews and gentiles and that believers will be raptured? Well, that could go further then we want, but I guess what I am trying to understand, as though I agree in the difference between the unbelieving nation of Israel and the saved, and that Israel as a whole will come to Christ when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, I cannot see two different periods of time here, brother. Now I guess alot of it could relate to ones meaning of the fullness of the gentiles.

I'm just posing a problem with what you said regarding the Great Tribulation and timing. How would you explain a passage like Matthew 24? Now remember, Matthew was the gospel written to the Jewish people.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

This aptly describes the days we are living in right now.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (emphasis mine)

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Here He's speaking to his disciples who are saved.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt can explain all of this better than I can, because I'm no scholar and I barely know prophecy very well. But I just wanted to add to verses 36-41 what it says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage elaborates further on what Matthew verses 36-41 say. It has to refer to believers because in verse one it says "1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren," The brethren let us know that Paul is talking to believers. And the event that Paul is talking about is the Rapture of the Church. It says that the dead in Christ will rise and then we that are alive on the earth will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so will we be forever with the Lord. So there is a Rapture or a catching away of the church. But the main question is when will that take place?

See next post.

[king'sbloomingrose]

In Revelation 7 it says,
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We know that there will be the 12 tribes from the nation of Israel on the earth and out of the 12 tribes will be sealed 144,000 in all. These will be God's witnesses to the nation of Israel and the rest of the world during the Great Tribulation. Because if you have the 12 tribes of Israel on the earth then they have to be made up of Israelites and so there must be Israelites in order to have the nation of Israel.

And it also says that there are a "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" That shows that there are saints of God in Heaven during the Tribulation.

In Revelation 9:20-21 says, 20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

These are the unsaved that are still on the earth and are going thru the Great Tribulation.

I hope I could be of some help in answering a few things. Perhaps Adrian could provide more insight but that was all I could pull together at the moment. Oh, and welcome to RF, stranger! i can't remember if I ever welcomed you or not, but I'll do it again just in case I didn't.

[the stranger]

Thankyou very much, ahh, I will just call you king. Ya, I know, Jesus is our only true King, so you will have to settle the ranking with the other King LOL

Thanks for the welcome and scripture, I certainly appreciate it.

Now in your first post you highlighted Matthew 24.

Now it is a common belief that because Jesus was talking to the Jews that it does not apply to us. The problem I have with that is, first, this same belief is that when Luke mentions two will be in the field, and one taken away, that this is applying to the church. (Luke 17:34-36) This, and almost the entire NT with the four gospels are believed to be talking to the church, yet in chapture 24 of Matthew, it excludes the church, and only includes the Jewish. Can we have it both ways, my friend?

Also I would like you to ask your self who this scripture is meant for when relating it to a specific group, whether Jew or gentiles. (Luke 12:41-42) Now are we His servants or are we not? This statement can be found in three of the gospels when Jesus is talking about the last days.

Also keep in mind that Jesus own disciples were asking Him this question (Matthew 24:3) Now these were not unsaved Jews but instead, they were our church founderes. They were brothers long before us. LOL Yet Jesus is telling them, not of the rapture, but this (Matthew 24:29-31) His coming after the tribulation. I am not trying to get into trouble here, but these are questions that cannot go unanswered. Between there is a different set of rules for the saved jews and the saved gentiles, or the rapture appears to happen after the tribulation.

Well, I think I will move on. I am probably already in eneugh trouble here.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) Now the next passage you posted was this. I certainly do believe in the rapture, brother. Do me a personell favor since we are in Thess. Read 2 Thessalonians 1:6 all the way through to 2:4. Do you see something different than me? Do you see two time frames?

2 Thessalonians 1:6-2:4 (King James Version)

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God



Now keep in mind this was written within or about a year after the first book, and seems to me to be talking about the same event. Am I wrong?

Thankyou for the passages in Revelation, my brother. If I respond to Revelations right now, it probably would be ATLEAST as long as the current posting. If I am able to respond more, I will finish later tonight or tomorrow night.



Again, my intent is not to lay out a doctrine which I want all others to believe, but instead just asking some real questions that I have had in the pre-tribulation lay out of things.

I thank you for your post, and, God willing, finist fairly soon. I do not claim to have it all right, by any strecth of the imanination, but what ever doctrines we do have, hopefully we can also have some answeres to back our belief up.

I have not been let down with answeres thus far, and probably will not be this time iether.

God bless you, brother and friend.

[the stranger]

Well, brother, I think I have a couple extra minutes yet. I will just respond in brief of just the points you made.

We know that there will be the 12 tribes from the nation of Israel on the earth and out of the 12 tribes will be sealed 144,000 in all. These will be God's witnesses to the nation of Israel and the rest of the world during the Great Tribulation. Because if you have the 12 tribes of Israel on the earth then they have to be made up of Israelites and so there must be Israelites in order to have the nation of Israel.

And it also says that there are a "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" That shows that there are saints of God in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Now just because it is a fun thing to do, compare the twelve tribes here versing the list of ealier.

Numbers 2:1-34 (King James Version)

Numbers 2
1And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

2Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.

3And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.

4And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.

5And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.

6And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.

7Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.

8And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.

9All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.

10On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.

11And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.

12And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.

13And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.

14Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.

15And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.

16All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.

17Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.

18On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.

19And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.

20And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.

21And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.

22Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.

23And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.

24All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.

25The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.

26And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.

27And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.

28And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.

29Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.

30And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.

31All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.

32These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

33But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.

34And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers


Now Of Revelations

Revelation 7:5-8 (King James Version)

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


Dan and Ephraim are ommitted; Joseph and his son Manasseh are added, as is Levi. Just kind of interesting.

Now concerning the 144,000, your guess as is good is mine. Opinions vary all over the place and I am not completely ready to devote myself to any as of now.

Now concerning Revelation 7:9-17, where did they all come from? The rapture right before the tribulation, pr, from the tribulation as of where they were killed for the proclaiming Christ. Now it is true that there are unsaved people in the trib as well, but the saints seem to be included in with this. Revelation 13:7 Revelation 13:10 Revelation 14:12 Revelation 16:6 Revelation 17:6 REvelation 18:24

Now I guess I got to go, because things are calling, as they always do. I am far from an expert on end times myself, friend, but these are just a couple things that I could not figure out in a early rapture.


Thanks for reading, brother, and may God bless you and your entire family.

[mattfivefour]

Now it is true that there are unsaved people in the trib as well, but the saints seem to be included in with this. Revelation 13:7 Revelation 13:10 Revelation 14:12 Revelation 16:6 Revelation 17:6 Revelation 18:24

The saints mentioned here are the Tribulation saints. The church has long gone. It is never mentioned on earth again after Revelation 3:22.

[the stranger]

Thankyou teacher Matt for that insight.

Revelation 1:1 compare with Revelation 1:4 and also note Revelation 22:6 and Revelation 22:16

My question would be, why is the seven churches mentioned in 1:4, but the revelation is said to be for all of His servants in 1:1? Was it not because these were the direct churches that the letter would be sent to, though the message was for all? 22:6 and 22:16 seem to be both a general reference to all of us, doesn't it?

In other words, it seems to be, generaly, when the word church is mentioned, it referes to one of the seven churches, but this prochecy is said to be for all, and in 22:16, seemingly indicating all, His servants that make up the church. We find the same principle when reading about the seven churches.

Is the word church only mention, except for 22:16, because that part of this book was addressed to those specific seven churches?

These other passages seem to indicate that sort of thing, in the direct letter of the churches: Revelation 2:7 Revelation 2:11 Revelation 2:17 and so on.

Just my humble thoughts on the subject. Thankyou Matt for responding

[mattfivefour]

Excuse my density, stranger, but I am not sure what you are getting at?

Revelation was written to all Christians, the entire Church. The letter was written to the seven churches of Asia (which is not what we consider Asia, but was the Roman province whose chief city was Ephesus.) But there were more than seven churches in Asia. Paul refers to others in his epistles, such as the church at Colosse (to whom he wrote an entire epistle which the Holy Spirit has preserved in the canon of Scripture).

So why does He focus on seven churches? Well, first of all the Biblical number seven represents completeness. The messages are meant for the entire church, not just the ones mentioned. Second, each of these churches had some problem which Jesus wanted to address to deal with problems in the Church as a whole. And third, these seven churches, in the order they are given, are a prophetic picture of the Church down through the ages. We, today, are living in both the Laodicean church age and the Philadelphian. The Philadelphian church represents the true, evangelical church which still exists today, in parallel with the Laodicean church which has sprung up in the past generation and is the apostate church. The emergent movement now is just the flowering and full fruit of the Laodicean church, the result of it not waking up, of heeding the warnings.

The verses you quote from Revelation 22, have nothing to do with the chronology contained in the earlier part of the book, but form part of the summation. The Revelation itself is over: it concludes with Revelation 22:5. Verse 6 gives the purpose for it being given to John: "... the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place." The summation and instruction follows. And then in Revelation 22:16, Jesus Himself comes and repeats what the angel said, but this time it is not the messenger but He who sent the messenger speaking: "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Once you correctly discern the structure of the Book, then the confusion over the Church in it disappears. Do you see?

[the stranger]

Yes, my brother, I agree that the letter of Revelation was written for all of us. My point was that the only time the word "church" is seen in Revelation, is when it is referring to that direct set of churches. Not that it was only met for them. That is why I included 2:7,11, and 17. Christ tells us that anyone listening is resposible for their conduct, but within the part of the letter addressed to one of the seven churches. In other words, though the letter was written for all, it was sent to seven real churches in seven real cities, thus why the seven churches named. That is my thoughts.

Now I know you are right when saying that there was other churches in Aisa, but we do have to remember Revelation was the last book writen, around ad 95, though this is debated. Now I have learned that just because it was addressed to one church, that did not mean it was just for that church. Colossians 4:16

Now I will not debate you on your belief on the order of the churches and such, but can you tell me this? Did not all generations have some of all these basic churches and the problems therein? Could you not point to a church of today and reference it to one of the seven churches in Revelation?

Just out of curiosity, what time frame do you believe the church of Smyrna was from? Also do you believe that every time period had atleast two of the churches of REV. happening at the same time?

You are right in regarding the end of Chapture 22. It is just a summery, like the earlier verses of 2:7;2:11 which instead of a summery, are an introduction.

My friend, I have tried to look into this book as chronicle order, but there just seems to me to be to many things out of place for me to take this view, however, I still can respect your view.

Thankyou for your thoughts, and who knows, maybe God will reveal new things to me in latter times. I am always listening, but not always understanding. (and sometimes, not even obeying ) Good thing He is so forgiving!

A;ways learning and always growing my friend, and just maybe, even through you. You never know who God will send

God bless, brother

[GlennO]

Meg -

Somewhere back around post # 10 or #12 you asked for a commentary recommendation. I have found that page for page, and dollar for dollar, it is hard to beat one of my favorites (we call it the short-fat book) 2383 page Believer's Bible Commentary Genesis to Revelation by William MacDonald. Cost when I bought it in 2005 was under $30.00

Commentary is based on the NKJV and my bible is NASB yet it has been the most useful study aid and I'd say 70% of the time, I get what I'm looking for right off the bat. Still I have a stable of resources, and they have their place, if i had to pick one book to go with my me and my bible to.....Bora Bora .........yeah that's it Bora Bora, that is the one I'd shove in my bag.

Hope that helps -

[king'sbloomingrose]

Could you not point to a church of today and reference it to one of the seven churches in Revelation?

Yes you could. The 7 churches were listed in order from the greatest to the least - the last was no church at all and didn't even know Christ as their Saviour from sin.

Just out of curiosity, what time frame do you believe the church of Smyrna was from? Also do you believe that every time period had atleast two of the churches of REV. happening at the same time?

It was from 100 AD to 312 AD according to a site I found on the internet. All of these churches had to be in existence when John wrote to them, I believe. Because those letters to each of the churches were carried to all the churches represented. In every age you can find all 7 of those churches present: from the church that was not even a church to the most on-fire church to the church that got so busy serving that they forgot who they were serving for.

I hope that helps, and I'll try to answer your other posts later today. Right now I need to go do some schoolwork. Oh, and could you please just call me KBR or rose? Everyone else does and I'm a she.

[king'sbloomingrose]

Now it is a common belief that because Jesus was talking to the Jews that it does not apply to us. The problem I have with that is, first, this same belief is that when Luke mentions two will be in the field, and one taken away, that this is applying to the church. (Luke 17:34-36) This, and almost the entire NT with the four gospels are believed to be talking to the church, yet in chapture 24 of Matthew, it excludes the church, and only includes the Jewish. Can we have it both ways, my friend?

I hope it's okay if I just type my answers in red here because it saves me from having to write out the quote tags so much. You pointed out a very good point here. And I'd have to say yes you're right about what you said that Matthew does indeed apply to the church and the Jewish nation as well (as does the whole Bible). I was always taught that Matthew was aimed at Israel, I forgot what the other two were aimed at, but I do remember that John was supposed to be for all the world. However, that doesn't make very much sense in light of what you said.

Also I would like you to ask your self who this scripture is meant for when relating it to a specific group, whether Jew or gentiles. (Luke 12:41-42) Now are we His servants or are we not? This statement can be found in three of the gospels when Jesus is talking about the last days.

Yes, we are His servants here on the earth and He also calls us friends...I believe from the context of the chapter that Christ is talking to the Church as a whole.

Also keep in mind that Jesus own disciples were asking Him this question (Matthew 24:3) Now these were not unsaved Jews but instead, they were our church founderes. They were brothers long before us. LOL Yet Jesus is telling them, not of the rapture, but this (Matthew 24:29-31) His coming after the tribulation. I am not trying to get into trouble here, but these are questions that cannot go unanswered. Between there is a different set of rules for the saved jews and the saved gentiles, or the rapture appears to happen after the tribulation.

Just to quote Matthew 24:29-31: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are three comings recorded in the Bible of Christ: The first was when He was born as a baby in Bethleham to die for our sins. The second is when He comes briefly to take the church out of the world before the Tribulation. The people everywhere will not see that. That is seen by believers only and Christ will not yet be coming to earth as it's Judge and King. The third coming is when Christ comes at the end of the Trib. and then every eye will see Him and every knee will bow to Him. And this third coming is what this passage here from Matthew 24 is talking about. Why do I believe in the Pre-Trib rapture of the church? One reason is that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." If you read the first 8 verses the wrath that Paul was talking about was the Great Tribulation.

It's good to question these things. It's good to prove what and why you believe what you do. You've brought up some very good points that are making me think long and hard about what I've been taught by others and been made to see if it holds up to Scripture.

One more point about Matthew 24: All the verses after verse 31 seem to go back and refer to before the Tribulation and to the rapture of the church because in the following verses:

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It talks about the Days of Noah and how God provided the boat for salvation that Noah built. And no one listened to Noah and got into the boat which would've been their only place of refuge from judgment. When Noah and his family got in and shut that door, then came the rains and flood of judgement that washed away all mankind except for Noah and his family. And so like it was back in Noah's day, it will be in the future with the taking away of the saints being before the judgement took place. Anyhow, I know you do believe in the Rapture, I was just trying to explain why it couldn't be after the Tribulation.

Well, I think I will move on. I am probably already in eneugh trouble here.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) Now the next passage you posted was this. I certainly do believe in the rapture, brother. Do me a personell favor since we are in Thess. Read 2 Thessalonians 1:6 all the way through to 2:4. Do you see something different than me? Do you see two time frames?


2 Thessalonians 1:6-2:4 (King James Version)

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God



Now keep in mind this was written within or about a year after the first book, and seems to me to be talking about the same event. Am I wrong?

Well, it really is talking about the same event, only it goes into more detail about what takes place during the event (or the Great Tribulation).

Thankyou for the passages in Revelation, my brother. If I respond to Revelations right now, it probably would be ATLEAST as long as the current posting. If I am able to respond more, I will finish later tonight or tomorrow night.



Again, my intent is not to lay out a doctrine which I want all others to believe, but instead just asking some real questions that I have had in the pre-tribulation lay out of things.

I thank you for your post, and, God willing, finist fairly soon. I do not claim to have it all right, by any strecth of the imanination, but what ever doctrines we do have, hopefully we can also have some answeres to back our belief up.

I have not been let down with answeres thus far, and probably will not be this time iether.

God bless you, brother and friend.

Ask away with questions, my friend. We certainly don't have all the answers but we'll try our best to answer!

[the stranger]

Dear Rose, thankyou much for clearing that up. You are certainly equal, but calling you brother, or king, would just not seem fitting. LOL

Rose, before I go on, I do need to make a small confession. This site has allot of imformation on it, and I have read very little of it thus far. After I type this response, I plan to read more of it. Maybe some of my wuestions can be answered there.

Before I continue, I also just want to say thankyou very much for both doing your best, and taking your time, to reply in such a knowlable way, and secondly, to confess when you do not have the answere and/or can see another point of prospective. I too, find myself to be very simalar in that regard. Our type takes time to respond, but it sure is worth the time took in Gods word.

Could you not point to a church of today and reference it to one of the seven churches in Revelation?

Yes you could. The 7 churches were listed in order from the greatest to the least - the last was no church at all and didn't even know Christ as their Saviour from sin.

I won't go into great detail here, my sister, but these things seem hard to explain. In the list of the seven churches, we find the second church having no criticism, but the first having. Also the 6th church having no criticism. The question is, if it is from the greatest to the least, why do not the promises seem to be that way (the end of each church) in relation, and secondly, why do we find the 2nd and sixth church with no criticism but the rest with? Can you tell me why you believe this?

Also, though the seventh church certainly had their problems, were they not still called the church? In other words, I know several Christains who i, (NOT TO BE MEAN) would not follow in their foot steps. They seem to do things their own way, and rely on themselves instead of Christ. Not that I am not guilty of this same thing at times, thus it takes God to show us these things, but I am just saying, it seems we have plenty of Christains like this around (allot more of us than sometimes we would care to admit) scattered about in many churches, yet also making up whole churches in general. With problems and all, are they still not the church, saved by grace? (not that they will still not be held accountable for their actions)

Just out of curiosity, what time frame do you believe the church of Smyrna was from? Also do you believe that every time period had atleast two of the churches of REV. happening at the same time?

It was from 100 AD to 312 AD according to a site I found on the internet. All of these churches had to be in existence when John wrote to them, I believe. Because those letters to each of the churches were carried to all the churches represented. In every age you can find all 7 of those churches present: from the church that was not even a church to the most on-fire church to the church that got so busy serving that they forgot who they were serving for.

Thankyou for all of that information, as I do not disagree with any of it, but did learn something new.

Now concerning matthew 24 or any other scripture, can you show me any passages that you believe relate to the rapture, and just the rapture, not including His "third" appearence?

Regarding Thessalonians, my sister, this part bothers me. (Just a side note that I never noticed before concerning the real Jews and the gentiles, from a book written to a gentile church. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-5 )

In chapture 4:13-18, we see Paul writing about the rapture, right? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Does this sound familuar with the "last" coming?

COMING IN THE CLOUDS WITH ALL HIS GLORY/ANGELS

MATTHEW 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

MARK 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels...

LUKE 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

JOHN 13:31-32 (Jesus talking) Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in Him, Hod will also glorify Him in Himself, and glorify Him immediately. (Goes along with 14:2-3)

ACTS 1:9-11 JESUS -- was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. --- (an angel speaking) This same Jesus, who was taken up from you in heaven, will so come in like a manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 The Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire...

REVELATION 1:7-8 Behold He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierce Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. -- I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty

Now mayby these ARE broken up somehow. If so, I could use some help.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 When looking at the whole verse in context, to me anyway, it just appears to be saying, instead of seeing wrath, which all unbelievers will, we have obtained salvation through Jesus, and we live with Him whether in this life or the next. Please compare with Matthew 3:7 (Note they have already died) John 3:36 Romans 2:5-7 Ephesians 2:3-5


Now back to matthew 24, is this what you are seeing?;

24:1-31 last coming (3rd) and 24:32-51 the middle event, the rapture.

Is so, I can see your stance and will verify if that can hold up likewise with the other gospels.

Well, it really is talking about the same event, only it goes into more detail about what takes place during the event (or the Great Tribulation).

Just to double check. Do you believe Thessalonians 2:1 is talking about the rapture, or the end coming? Is the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 the same as 2 Thessalonians 1:6-2:12? What are your thoughts, Rose?


Once again, Rose, not only do I appreciate all of your well thought out answeres, but I admire your character of admitting that somethings you just don't know, like the rest of us. I am really enjoying this discussion, Rose.







( Dear modorators, if at any time one feels I am pushing the rules and/or regulations of this site/forum, please just let me know, and I will stop on a dime (if only to pick it up LOL).

[GlennO]

Stranger -

This chart by H.A Ironside may be useful to you in your pondering:

Blue Letter Bible - Images

If is not useful, do not let it distract, I learn more by eye than by ear.

[king'sbloomingrose]

I won't go into great detail here, my sister, but these things seem hard to explain. In the list of the seven churches, we find the second church having no criticism, but the first having. Also the 6th church having no criticism. The question is, if it is from the greatest to the least, why do not the promises seem to be that way (the end of each church) in relation, and secondly, why do we find the 2nd and sixth church with no criticism but the rest with? Can you tell me why you believe this?

Apparently, that was just one of my pet theories that I came up with and had not noticed the order of condemnation or comendation in the book. I saw the 7th church was the worst and automatically assumed that the first church was the best. I'm sorry about that.

Also, though the seventh church certainly had their problems, were they not still called the church? In other words, I know several Christains who i, (NOT TO BE MEAN) would not follow in their foot steps. They seem to do things their own way, and rely on themselves instead of Christ. Not that I am not guilty of this same thing at times, thus it takes God to show us these things, but I am just saying, it seems we have plenty of Christains like this around (allot more of us than sometimes we would care to admit) scattered about in many churches, yet also making up whole churches in general. With problems and all, are they still not the church, saved by grace? (not that they will still not be held accountable for their actions)

They still retained the title of "church" but not all churches out there are what the Bible would call true churches. The heading in my Bible says, "The message to Laodicea. The final state of apostasy." And after reading the description of this church, I can't help but notice it sounds fearfully like some of the apostate churches today that ride motorcycles in the sanctuary, try to mix entertainment and Christ, and yet they're all in it for the money they can get out of it and not even trying to serve God at all. Apparently, Christ still loved and was grieved for this church because even in their last stages He calls them to repent. Anyhow, back on topic...

Now concerning matthew 24 or any other scripture, can you show me any passages that you believe relate to the rapture, and just the rapture, not including His "third" appearence?

Well, I was just reading that portion in Revelation that related to the 7 churches and in chapter 4:1 it says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

The footnote in my Bible says "This call seems clearly to indicate the fulfilment of 1 Thes. 4:14-17. The word church does not again occur in Revelation." That ties into what Pastor Matt was saying earlier about where the word church last appears in Revelation. I also find it significant that it says that after Christ says, "Come up here," John is taken into Heaven in a vision and he does not come back down from Heaven again during the rest of the book but remains to view the scene on earth from a Heavenly vantage point. John is a Christian of course, and as such is caught up into Heaven just like the church will be when Christ calls us up at the Rapture. I know that's an aside, but I thought it was very interesting.

Now for some other passages besides Matthew 24...There's I Corinthians 15:51-58, 1 John 14:1-3, Revelation 3:10, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 1 Thess. 5:9, Philippians 3:20-21 to name a few.

A good site to look at for more information and verses is Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture* --* Mike Vlach That's just a little bit to get you started.


Once again, Rose, not only do I appreciate all of your well thought out answeres, but I admire your character of admitting that somethings you just don't know, like the rest of us. I am really enjoying this discussion, Rose.

I enjoyed getting thru as much of this as possible tonight. Tomorrow I will have to try to research the rest of your post but tonight, it's getting late and I have to get up really early tomorrow for church. I'm sorry that I couldn't get to all of it tonight. :( Feel free to comment and let me know your thoughts. God bless, bro!

[the stranger]

Thankyou very much for your brillent post, sister. I can tell you put a little time into this.

Out of respect of the rules of the forum, I will withdraw from this topic, but am sure that i will see you around the board.

I had a little technicle difficulty, and so could not reply to you sooner.


God bless you, Rose, and thankyou for your valid insight.

GlennO, thankyou for the end time chart. It was very helpful. God bless.