Question About The Meaning Of Judah And Israel

[ANY MINUTE]

mikhen7-- thanks for the post. Answered my questions before I got a chance to ask. I type really slow and had to stop and re-read some scriptures, so you posted while I was still asking.

I agree with what you said, at least that is how I was taught. There are so many knowledgeable people here and I enjoy reading and learning from all the posts.

[ANY MINUTE]

Yes you are correct. The judgment of the Sheep and the Goats ocurrs, I believe, during the 75 day period between the end of the trib and the begginning of the Millennium. All who enter are saved!

Dan 12: 11-13:

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The tribulation is two periods of 1260 days each or two each times and a time and 1/2 a time. But here in Daniel he mentions from the mid point of the trib. until the beginning of the Millenium is 1335 days. 1335-1260 = 75. I say this because the Trib is seven years long. Daniel adds a month in the second half here. At any rate this interim period is where the Sheep and goats happens and the earth is cleansed and brought into a righteous state.

God Bless

Thanks for the response. I too believe this is the reason for the 75 days.

[the stranger]

Call me new aged, or lack of knowledge, but if the TRUE Israel and the church are different, why does the bible make clear that we are all one and that only the saved Jews will enter heaven?

Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

9:25 “I will call them my people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,’you are not my people’, There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Yes, there is still the nation of Israel which will come to Christ later (at the fulfillment of the Gentiles) (but only 1/3 of present population) , but the true Israelites are all who call on the name of the Lord Almighty.


Galatians 3:29 if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outward in the flesh; but he is a jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter.

Galations 6:16 (Jerusalem Bible) Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, who form the Israel of God. (put in context with prier verses, it is hard to read any traanslation of this verse differently)

Now don’t get me wrong, brother, as I do believe in the separation of the “true Israel” and the unsaved Jewish nation and people. Keep in mind, however, we both believe that the nation Israel as a whole will in time come to Christ, and when this happens, who will they be? They will be part if the true family of Israelites, us Christians.

Other verses that you might want to glace at are Isaigh 65: 8-10, 12, 16


My intention is not to stir up trouble here, my brothers and sisters, but this is the way I see the bible, and I cannot figure out where the view allot of you hold come from. Is there a passage I am missing?

The way I see it

(1) Christians; both the saved gentile and Jew
(2) unsaved gentiles (though God knows the ones that will come to Him before the end, and they will become the true Israelites also.
(3) unsaved Jews (though the 1/3 of the Jewish population left after the tribulation will come to accept Christ, thus becoming the true Israelites)

Let me put it another way. We all know the Jews were God's chosen people to show Himself throughout the world. Do we not fall into that catagory?

No matter ones view, I believe everyone would agree we are chosen by God, al Christians, being God's chosen people, right?



God bless you all and I thank you all in advance for all of your responses.

PS My intent and heart is not to proof anybody wrong, but just to see where we are coming up with different conclusions!

[Meg]

Interesting points, Stranger, I'm loomking forward to what Mattfivefour makes of all this. That being said, please don't take this next wrong, but get rid of the Jerusalem Bible. I used to have a copy of it, but a translation in one of the Psalms turned out to be so bizarre, and so totally not even close to what the actual Hebrew says, that after some quick research on the issue of that translation, I destroyed my copy.

Peace to you, and glad you're here.

[mattfivefour]

The fact is that the Church and Israel are not the same. Israel, as such, are the lineal descendants of Abraham and those who believe in God exist under the Old Covenant with its promises ... and curse. (Deuteronomy 28)

The Church exists under the New Covenant which is a far better covenant (Hebrews 7:22; 12:24) with its far greater promises (Hebrews 8:6). Both Jews and Gentiles are called into this latter Body and all who enter therein will receive of the better promises than those contained in the first.

Nevertheless, God’s promises to Israel through Abraham are neither altered nor abrogated—for God is not a man that He should lie nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (Numbers 23:19 NIV) Those promises shall be kept and shall be given to the remnant who will inherit them when Christ returns, ending the battle of Har-Meggido, revealing himself to them, and setting up his earthly millennial kingdom.

To quote Dr. Thomas McCall, the senior theologian of Zola Levitt Ministries, who is absolutely correct in his teaching here—

“In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.

“The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Romans 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isaiah 2:2-3; Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matthew 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.”

I hope this helps.

[the stranger]

That being said, please don't take this next wrong, but get rid of the Jerusalem Bible. I used to have a copy of it, but a translation in one of the Psalms turned out to be so bizarre, and so totally not even close to what the actual Hebrew says, that after some quick research on the issue of that translation, I destroyed my copy.

Thankyou for that insight. I have never done any research on this translation. I guess by name, it just sounded trust worthy. I will check that out. Thankyou.

The fact is that the Church and Israel are not the same. Israel, as such, are the lineal descendants of Abraham and those who believe in God exist under the Old Covenant with its promises ... and curse. (Deuteronomy 28)

The Church exists under the New Covenant which is a far better covenant (Hebrews 7:22; 12:24) with its far greater promises (Hebrews 8:6). Both Jews and Gentiles are called into this latter Body and all who enter therein will receive of the better promises than those contained in the first

First, thankyou for your polite response.

I am still a little confused concerning your view. You note in Hebrew (which was written to the saved Jews, the church, which in this case made up of many Jewish) both Jew and gentile are called into this later body, the church. Just before that, however, you stated Israel was still under the old covenant. Now are you saying what I had stated, that is, a difference between the saved Jewish and the unsaved, or are you implying something different? Can we both be called to the latter Body yet be held under different rules? Even the gentiles of the OT was held to the same laws, except regarding feast, in which they were considered a Jew if they observed the Jewish law and lived as the Jewish, being circumcised, right?

And did not many OT prophecies include the descendents of Israel, which Paul states we are?

Now concerning the latter part of the post, I see, other than a difference of opinin on timing, no counterdiction on my end, that is, the Jewish nation, Israel, being tried and tested, and finally the remaining 1/3 that is left, confessing Jesus in the end.

Dear teacher, I have nothing but respect for where God has placed you and the knowledge that God has engulfed you with. If you find it in your heart, however, I could certainly use some more detailing regarding this issue.

Thanks for responding and God bless!

[mikhen7]

The fact is that the Church and Israel are not the same. Israel, as such, are the lineal descendants of Abraham and those who believe in God exist under the Old Covenant with its promises ... and curse. (Deuteronomy 28)

The Church exists under the New Covenant which is a far better covenant (Hebrews 7:22; 12:24) with its far greater promises (Hebrews 8:6). Both Jews and Gentiles are called into this latter Body and all who enter therein will receive of the better promises than those contained in the first.

Nevertheless, God’s promises to Israel through Abraham are neither altered nor abrogated—for God is not a man that He should lie nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (Numbers 23:19 NIV) Those promises shall be kept and shall be given to the remnant who will inherit them when Christ returns, ending the battle of Har-Meggido, revealing himself to them, and setting up his earthly millennial kingdom.

To quote Dr. Thomas McCall, the senior theologian of Zola Levitt Ministries, who is absolutely correct in his teaching here—

“In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.

“The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Romans 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isaiah 2:2-3; Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matthew 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.”

I hope this helps.

He is 100% correct! Good post.
God Bless

[mattfivefour]

Respectfully, I am saying that both Jew and Gentile are called into One Body. Those who refuse to come remain as they were— the Gentiles lost and the Jews under the Old Covenant. some refer to this "New Body" (the Church) as "Spiritual Israel", which just confuses the issue. It is not.

Jewish believer and pastor Mike Oppenheimer puts it well:

Many transfer the promises and the covenants of Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look up this phrase; you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported when they are read in their full context.

There was no Church in the Old Testament because there was no incarnation, no revelation of the Son, nor his sacrifice that broke down the middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:14). For the Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not so for Israel.

Galatians 3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob, who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob. God had specially promised to Israel salvation and the believing Jews received it through the gospel. But Paul explains that not all the natural descendants of Jacob were embraced in this “Israel;” for that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). As Paul already declared in an earlier chapter: “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly” (Romans 2:28, 29). The seed which is Israel is from Jacob and the apostle and other writers make a clear distinction between this and Abraham’s seed.

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel” (Romans 10:16). They have not all responded to God’s call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is foretold by Isaiah, who is quoted by Paul in Romans 9:27; that only a remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob would obtain the salvation of God. “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the remnant hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Romans 11:7)
"Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Being a son of Abraham does not make one a Jew, being a son of Jacob does, so a gentile can be a son of Abraham. But Jew’s are a son of Abraham and of Jacob.As Paul stated in Romans 4:11-16, the children of Abraham, are those who have the faith of Abraham, whether by their natural birth they were Jews or Gentiles. This is detailed in Galatians 3 and 4] "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus both Jews and Gentiles are spiritual brethren in the body of Christ.” (Galatians 3:26) The apostle says, to Gentile believers: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29). So those who accept the Gospel both Jews and Gentiles are of Abraham's seed, but only those who are physically Israel are from Jacobs seed. "The other verse is Galatians 6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church. As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon the Israel of God. This can be made clear by the preceding verses 12-13 where Paul is tackling the topic of circumcision and the Jews influence to have the gentiles circumcised. He then tells us the mandatory rite of the Abrahamic covenant is not applicable to the believer but it is the cross that is necessary to make a new creation. In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizer's were teaching that the law was needed also. Those (Jews) who obey this are the Israel of God (the remnant). Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Galatians 6. As Paul states, for they are not all Israel who are of Israel (Romans 9:6). There is also Israel after the flesh found in 1 Corinthians 10:18.

The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Ephesians 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God making a new entity. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but consists of both. The two put together make one new man, a third entity that is not Israel nor gentile. The word Israel is used 73 times in the New Testament, not once is it used for the Church. According to Paul’s specific aim in this portion of the letter, not all the descendants from Jacob are Israel; as he states in 9:6— " They are not all Israel who are Israel." Not all who are named Jews are truly Jews, the true Israel of God (the Jews) are those who believe in the Messiah. Romans 2:17- 20 starts with the greater responsibility the Jews have. He points to the law that was not given to the Gentiles but the nation of Israel, and they have the responsibility of knowing God.

It never says anything about a gentile being a spiritual Jew but is explaining that one is really Jewish not by the keeping of the law, but having a born again experience. Paul is directing the teaching of the promised new covenant specifically to the Jews who believe, although the Gentiles are included. Paul is not teaching Gentiles become spiritual Jews but not all Jews are true Jews. There are Jews who believe and the Jews who are in unbelief. Just as it is put in other areas of a remnant among Israel, the true believers and a non-remnant, believing Israel as the Israel of God.

A believing Gentile becomes a spiritual son of Abraham which is an inheritor of the spiritual blessings God promised to the Jews, they are grafted into the covenant he made with Israel.

As for Israel, the Jews, (Jeremiah 30:18; 31:8) Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth.

I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west... It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both."

I hope this helps settle the confusion in your mind.

[the stranger]

Thankyou for your wise respose, teacher. I have a little more learning to do for now. I will verify to see if all of these facts, infact, hold up.
Thanks again and God bless

[mattfivefour]

And may God bless you, stranger. I pray you not remain a stranger but stay here as part of this part of the family of God that hangs out together on this site to fellowship, to worship, to share, to encourage, to build up and to be built up. We are pleased you are here; and I, personally, am pleased to see that you are a Berean and will indeed "search the Scriptures to see if those things be so."

[mikhen7]

LOL! Good information Adrian.

[Robert]

To answer the Topic Question:

Judah means "Praised", and Israel means "Prince of God".

I know: NOT the answer you were looking for

I am working in Lamentations this morning, and thinking about the new age contamination of the modern church. Is it safe to say through exegesis that Judah represents the church under Christ, since Jesus Christ is of the tribe of Judah? If yes, what does Israel represent?

In my studies, although the sacrifices the Hebrews made prefigured Christ's sacrifice on The Cross, I never saw either Israel or Judah as representative of the church. The church was something new that God did, a surprise to all that surely took Satan off-guard when it breathed it's first Holy Spirit-given breath at Pentecost. As mentioned by several others here, the destinies of the Church and Israel are separate.

BTW: while we are doing name meanings, the word church comes from the greek word ekklesia; it is composed of "ek" or " from out of," and "kaleo", "to call". Put together, it literally means "to call from out of"; used in scripture, it means "an assembly." Essentially, we are an assembly called out from this world. in that respect, we could be considered like Israel (the nation proper before the division)as called out from amongst the nations. But unlike Israel and Judah (the sibling nations from Israel's split), w are not called out under the law, as in accordance to the Old Covenant of the Law, but instead we are called, both Jew and Gentile alike, into the New Covenant of Grace that was sealed and ratified when Jesus The Testator died in our place at Golgotha:

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Hebrews 9:16-17, KJV)

I know the point that you were trying to make though, Meg: since Judah was the only one to remain any sort of faithful to the Lord while Israel just fell completely into spiritual idolatry (frankly, only a handful of kings in Judah were godly, with any spiritual rebirth dying quickly after their own deaths), I can see where you would notice a collorary between those two nations and the church today, with the apostates and the faithful. In that respect I too notice a similarity. The same could be said of Cain and Abel, with the Older rebelling and the Younger staying true to the Lord. Esau and Jacob also come to mind, and although Esau never found the place of repentance though he sought it with tears, God changed Jacob the con man into Israel the prince. Ultimately, there is the First Adam, who rebelled and brought death, and the Second Adam, who was faithful unto death and obeyed his Father, bringing new life for those who would trust in him for salvation.

So, while we can draw a comparison between those examples and that have fallen away plus those that are faithful, I don't think it was intended that Israel and Judah prefigure the church in apostasy and the faithful church.


Hopefully, at least some of that made sense; I hate editing!

[the stranger]

Dear teacher. I hope you do not mind me calling you that, as I only call those who I respect highly this name. If you prefer a different name, please let me know.

I almost am reluctent to post a reply as I do not want to cause havic or bitterness. I hope no matter what our views we can remain close.

If you would prefer not to respond or diologe anymore concerning this, please just let me know, because keeping peace and being a benifet or blessing, versing trouble or a burden is what it is all about!

After checking a couple things out, I just have a couple questions for you, and to share a little on what was shown to me by the Maker.

Genesis 35:9-13 (King James Version)

9And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

10And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

12And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

13And God went up from him in the place where he talked with him.


I want to focus on a couple things here, brother.

Genesis 35:11-12



Genesis 35:11-12 restates certain promises God had earlier made to Abraham. God here reiterates His promise to Abraham, as recorded in Genesis 17:5-6, that he would be a father of kings. God also tells Jacob that from him would descend not only a nation, but also a whole company of nations.

It also should be noted that Jesus, the Father of us all, came from this blood line.

This seems to strongly indicate, just like the promise to Abraham, Jacob also seems to be blessed with many nations of which will be of him.

Can we reread Romans?


Romans 9:6-13 (King James Version)

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The whole passage dealing with the children of the promise.

Hebrews 11:8-16 (King James Version)

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Here it seems to show us that the promise, which was by faith, was for both Abraham and Jacob, Israel. So the promise being for all true Israelites.

Hebrews 11:39-40 (King James Version)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


So all should be made perfect, beholding the promise, all at the same time?


I should also add that many, if not all, of the used verses in this article, seemed to be misused or not in context at the very least, and I will be happy to go more into detail about that if asked.

Now there are many more things I could add, but I think I will end it here. One question might be, however, if one promise is for the saved Israelites, and another, if any, for the saved gentiles, where does it say or have a separation listed in the bible, except when talking to Israel in general, as almost the whole OT did?

What is your own opinion about the differences between us, inlight that the bible states that there are no differences?


My goal is not to win the argument, but just to have some sincere questions about such thoughts or/and believes and if, infact, they hold up in every way.

If this conversation is deemed better left unfinished, please just let me know. I am just very hesident on building on things that I do not se.

God bless

[mattfivefour]

Why don't you just call me Matt? Or Adrian? Either will do.

Now you ask "So all should be made perfect, beholding the promise, all at the same time?" The answer is yes, but not the way it would appear you are thinking. All were made perfect at the same time, for those who died in hope of Christ were accepted into Heaven following Christ's resurrection because the only thing that had kept them out (and reserved in Sheol until the accepted sacrifice of Messiah) was that that once-for-all perfect sacrifice had not yet been made. Once it had, they—along with all of the saints since—went straight to Heaven. That is what Paul is talking about when He says they were not made perfect without us. In other words, there is only one sacrifice and all who have faith in Christ have part in it.

You then ask "What is your own opinion about the differences between us, inlight that the bible states that there are no differences?" The Bible does not say there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. It says there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles IN CHRIST. (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11) Big difference! It does not matter if you were a Jew or a Gentile or a barbarian or a slave or a free man or a woman or a man ... once one has become a Christian. The differences that separate us are gone. We are henceforth one is Christ.

Hope this helps.

[the stranger]

Thankyou Matt. My teachers were not quite that humble. LOL

Now you ask "So all should be made perfect, beholding the promise, all at the same time?" The answer is yes, but not the way it would appear you are thinking. All were made perfect at the same time, for those who died in hope of Christ were accepted into Heaven following Christ's resurrection because the only thing that had kept them out (and reserved in Sheol until the accepted sacrifice of Messiah) was that that once-for-all perfect sacrifice had not yet been made. Once it had, they—along with all of the saints since—went straight to Heaven. That is what Paul is talking about when He says they were not made perfect without us. In other words, there is only one sacrifice and all who have faith in Christ have part in it.

While I certainly would not entirely disagree with these thoughts, do you think, perhaps, even they are waiting for the end result, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Is not this our finale reward or perfected state. Iether way, there is some truth to your answere for sure. We all are looking and longing for heaven and to be with Jesus.

You then ask "What is your own opinion about the differences between us, inlight that the bible states that there are no differences?" The Bible does not say there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. It says there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles IN CHRIST. (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11) Big difference! It does not matter if you were a Jew or a Gentile or a barbarian or a slave or a free man or a woman or a man ... once one has become a Christian. The differences that separate us are gone. We are henceforth one is Christ.

I could not agree more. Different people, different culture, different trades, different history, The first chosen by God being the Israelites, but in Christ, now we are all made to shine the light of the world.

If we are all the same in Christ, all called to the same mission, all said to be children of Abraham, how is it we would have two different promises? Again, could not any gentile become a Jew in the OT?

You need not respond to this, but I just found it interesting, and am not saying how much wait to carry with this. This is a portion of the Midrash, the instruction book for the Jewish to help them understand the Law better and how to follow the law better.

THE GENTILES REFUSE THE TORAH

The mountain on which God made his revelation bears six names:
It is called the Desert Sin, because God there announced His
commandments; it is called the Desert Kadesh, because Israel was
sanctified there; the Desert Kadmut because the pre-existing Torah
was there revealed; the Desert Paran because Israel there was
greatly multiplied; the Desert Sinai because the hatred of God
against the heathens began there, for the reason that they would
not accept the Torah; and for this same reason is it called Horeh,
because the annihilation of the heathens was there decreed by God.
[180] For the wrath of God against the heathens dates from their
refusal to accept the Torah offered them.

Before God gave Israel the Torah, He approached every tribe and
nation, and offered them the Torah, that hereafter they might have
no excuse to say, “Had the Holy one, blessed be He, desired to give
us the Torah, we should have accepted it.” He went to the children
of Esau and said, “Will ye accept the Torah?” They answered Him,
saying, “What is written therein?” He answered them, “Thou shalt
not kill.” Then they all said: “Wilt Thou perchance take from us
the blessing with which our father Esau was blessed? For he was
blessed with the words, ‘By thy sword shalt thou live.” We do not
want to accept the Torah.” Thereupon He went to the children of
Lot and said to them, “Will ye accept the Torah?” They said,
“What is written therein?” He answered, “Thou shalt not commit
unchastity.” They said: “From unchastity do we spring; we do no
want to accept the Torah.” Then He went to the children of
Ishmael and said to them, “Do ye want to accept the Torah?” They
said to Him, “What is written therein?” He answered, “Thou shalt
not steal.” They said: “Wilt Thou take from us the blessing with
which our father was blessed? God promised him: ‘His hand will
be against every man.’ We do not want to accept the Thy Torah.”
Thence He went to all the other nations, who likewise rejected the
Torah, saying: “We cannot give up the law of our fathers, we do
not want Thy Torah, give it to Thy people Israel.” Upon this He
came to Israel and spoke to them, “Will ye accept the Torah?”
They said to Him, “What is written therein?” He answered, “Six
hundred and thirteen commandments.” They said: “All that the
Lord has spoken will we do and be obedient.” [181] “O Lord of the
world!” they continued, “We acted in accordance with Thy
commandments before they were revealed to us. Jacob fulfilled the
first of the Ten Commandments by bidding his sons put away
strange gods that were among them. Abraham obeyed the
commandment not to take the name of the Lord in vain, for he
said: ‘I have lifted up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God.’
Joseph fulfilled the commandment to remember the Sabbath and
keep it holy; and when his brothers came to him, he had everything
for their welcome prepared on Friday. Isaac observed the law to
honor his father and his mother, when he allowed Abraham to bind
him on the altar as a sacrifice. Judah observed the commandment
not to kill when he said to his brothers, ‘What profit is it if we slay
our brother and conceal his blood?’ Joseph observed the law: ‘Thou
shalt not commit adultery,’ when he repulsed the desire of the wife
of Potiphar. The other sons of Jacob observed the commandment:
‘Thou shalt not steal,’ saying: ‘How then should we steal out of thy
lord’s house silver and gold?’ Abraham observed the
commandment: ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness,’ for he was a
true witness, and bore witness before all the world that Thou art
the Lord of all creation. It was Abraham, also, who observed the
last of the Ten Commandments ‘Thou shalt not covet,’ saying: ‘I
will not take from a thread even to a shoe-latchet.’” [182]

PS. Because this is such a hard thing to find, (atleast for me) and that nothing should be copied without a proper reference, let me share this web site with you,friends!

The Legends of the Jews (Volume 3) from Project Gutenberg


This doesn't really make a point about our conversation, really. I just thought it was kind of neat. The only thing is, when we get outside of the actual word of God, nothing can be ste in stone as absalute fact!


Thanks for reading and I know God will bless!

[mattfivefour]

The Midrashes are just man-made legends and myths dressed up as wisdom. The Jews put great faith in the Talmud ... to the extent that it has almost replaced the Tenakh in their hearts. A rabbi is greatly respected only if he is a talmud chuchem. A man who studies instead the Torah, the Nevi'im and the Ketuvim which were given by God and does not also study the wisdom of man which is found in the Talmud is not considered by observant Jews to be a man worthy of following. No wonder Jesus accused the Rabbis and other religious leaders with the words: "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites! As it is written: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You neglect the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 6:8)

These ones today are the descendants of those very men. There is absolutely NO truth in the legend of the giving of the Torah.

[the stranger]

Thankyou for that wisdom, brother Matt. The reason that I started to look at the midrash is that some have doctrine that they say derive from the bible, but understood only through the midrash. The believe is that the Torah was the Law, and the midrash was the instruction book.

When I was reading through it, I found several things that just did not make allot of sence to me. Some claim it is because I am not Jewish, but I still know the word. Thankyou for that info. It was very useful, and even more so when you put it in the light of the gospels.

Thanks again and God bless

[Meg]

If it makes you feel any better, Stranger, I got pretty much the same kind of answer when I asked Matt about the Apocrypha...

[the stranger]

I believe that, meg. I have done a little research on that myself, and though they can be useful to some degree, anytime you read information or books with ANY statements that are later proven false, or does not always prove to hold to the same level, then I guess one just must take it for what it is, a work of man, and not of God.

The only thing we know for sure, though debated, is the bible is the only book in history without error in it's oringinal form and known and said to be from God Himself, and infact, is God, in that He lives through His very word.

I guess I still find other books like that somewhat interesting, but it fails BIG when comparison to Gods true word.

God bless you, Meg

[king'sbloomingrose]

I was just thinking that in relation to the discussion about Isreal and the church... Dr. McGee said that God's running two different programs simultaneously. He started His program for the nation of Israel and led them all thru the OT. Then when they rejected Him and their Messiah then God turned to the Gentiles. That's where He is right now, saving Jews and Gentiles to be His bride, the Church. But then God will take the Church to Heaven and He'll finish up what He started with the nation of Israel. They will then after the Tribulation, turn back to God and He will be the Shepard of His people Israel once again on this earth.

Welcome to Rapture Forums, stranger!