A very good question ...

[myinnuendo999]

hey, I just noticed something

Paul talked about the breastplate of righteousness-Eph.6:14 and in Isaiah it's also referred to as righteousness-- breastplate-Isaiah 59:17.

However, in 1 Thessalonians 5:8 he says "putting on faith and love as a breastplate"?

what does that mean and why is it different?

[mattfivefour]

I have brought this over into its own thread from another one because I think this is a question that is worth discussing. But I am not going to be first one in. Anybody here want to take a crack at answering it?

[Meg]

hey, I just noticed something

Paul talked about the breastplate of righteousness-Eph.6:14 and in Isaiah it's also referred to as righteousness-- breastplate-Isaiah 59:17.

However, in 1 Thessalonians 5:8 he says "putting on faith and love as a breastplate"?

what does that mean and why is it different?

First I read all three Scriptures in the OP, to be sure of the exact context. A breastplate covers the heart and tummy areas, the center of emotion, right? So my guess is that these Scriptures have something to do with emotional self control.

[Robert]

hey, I just noticed something

Paul talked about the breastplate of righteousness-Eph.6:14 and in Isaiah it's also referred to as righteousness-- breastplate-Isaiah 59:17.

However, in 1 Thessalonians 5:8 he says "putting on faith and love as a breastplate"?

what does that mean and why is it different?

Where does righteousness have its' seat?

In the heart, where faith and love also reside.

To place our faith in Christ is to trust in him alone for our salvation. To love him is to love what he loves, which is other people, and we love them enough to bring them the gospel, and so obey the great commission of the Lord. While works do not produce righteousness, but are instead evidence of our faith, so too are they evidence that we have received Christ in our hearts and have surrendered our hearts and bodies to him and him alone. We are given righteousness because of his sacrifice, not because of anything we did, which can be nothign at all, when it comes to "earning" salvation (which is not possible).

In short: faith, love and righteousness are akin.

If I'm off on any of this, please don't hesitate to tell me folks. I'm just a beggar telling other beggars where to find bread.

[Meg]

OK, Robert, so righteousness has its seat in the heart, then where does the breastplate come in? (Not disagreeing with you, just looking for an expansion into the full expression of the concept).

[Robert]

(Okay, let me see if I can stumble haphazardly through this... )

Yes, but while righteousness has it's seat there, unsaved people do not have it. Righteousness is something that needs to be obtained, and we have no way to obtain it other than the blood of Christ; we cannot get it or create it on our own. And until we know the Love of God, I do not think we can truly love; our love is superficial. As for faith, it is something we have to be given; it too does not originate with us but is given to us by the Lord. So how I am seeing this is that faith, love and righteousness are all tied together, and must be put on as a breastplate, over the heart. And the only way we can do that is to be in Christ, but because the old man is still very much with us, we must strive to do this and not take it for granted. The old man or the flesh has to be put to death daily, and we must walk as the new man, resisting unto blood against sin.

[Meg]

(Okay, let me see if I can stumble haphazardly through this... )

Yes, but while righteousness has it's seat there, unsaved people do not have it. Righteousness is something that needs to be obtained, and we have no way to obtain it other than the blood of Christ; we cannot get it or create it on our own. And until we know the Love of God, I do not think we can truly love; our love is superficial. As for faith, it is something we have to be given; it too does not originate with us but is given to us by the Lord. So how I am seeing this is that faith, love and righteousness are all tied together, and must be put on as a breastplate, over the heart. And the only way we can do that is to be in Christ, but because the old man is still very much with us, we must strive to do this and not take it for granted. The old man or the flesh has to be put to death daily, and we must walk as the new man, resisting unto blood against sin.

OK, so far so good, Robert, to a point I agree with you. But the complicating factor included in the OP is Isaiah 59:17

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

Unless I am badly mistaken, this passage is describing the Lord. There's something really important here, and I'm not really seeing it either. Why would God have to or want to gird Himself for war?

John 12:28-30 gives us a hint:

28 Father, glorify your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.

So I think He's telling us something important in these breastplate passages. Anybody else got any thoughts?

[Robert]

Paging Mattfivefour; paging Mattfivefour...

[Meg]

Oh Robert, paging Adrian, thats cheating ! I think we should pray, and tangle with this question until we start to get into breakthrough. Thats the old fashioned way, and its good for the student.

[Robert]

Well, the thing is: I don't want to go off in a wrong direction or try to make scripture say something that God never meant it to say.

Besides, he LOVES debating...


*Robert sneaks off while everyone looks for Mattfivefour to come in*

[Meg]

If we go off in the wrong direction, I have no doubt that Matt will step in and correct us.

*Meg makes a face at Robert*

Now seriously, Ephesians 6:14 connects a belt of truth with a breastplate of righteousness

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

1 Thessalonians 5:8 connects sobriety with the breastplate, and intreprets righteousness as faith and love...

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I'm going to leave Isaiah out of this attempt, because I think Isaiah is discussing Jesus Christ, where Paul is clearly instructing us.

What do you think, Robert, am I anywhere near what you were thinking?

[myinnuendo999]

I don't know cause It's really late but maybe it has something to do with this ::

1Cr 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[micah719]

Romans 13:11-14
11 Besides this you know what [a critical] hour this is, how it is high time now for you to wake up out of your sleep (rouse to reality). For salvation (final deliverance) is nearer to us now than when we first believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ, the Messiah).
12 The night is far gone and the day is almost here. Let us then drop (fling away) the works and deeds of darkness and put on the [full] armor of light.
13 Let us live and conduct ourselves honorably and becomingly as in the [open light of] day, not in reveling (carousing) and drunkenness, not in immorality and debauchery (sensuality and licentiousness), not in quarreling and jealousy.
14 But clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and make no provision for [indulging] the flesh [put a stop to thinking about the evil cravings of your physical nature] to [gratify its] desires (lusts).

Apart from the above Scripture passage (and the one from Zecheriah mentioning Joshua and Zerubbabel, where Joshua stood before the altar and got a new set of clothes...), there is something else that came to mind upon reading this thread. In the OT the custom of covenant included the covenant partners swapping clothes and belt....so in our case, The Lord Jesus Christ got to put on our sinful trappings and was crucified, and we got to put on the garments of Glory. The Lord IS our righteousness, our covenant Partner, Who gave Himself. Also, the passage where I think Paul mentions The Lord's flesh as being the real veil that was torn to give us access to the Holy of Holies. Just rambling thoughts, there is other stuff going on here that requires seeing to....so I'll swat the thread back across the net and toss the racquet in the air for the next responder to catch.....

[mikhen7]

Romans 13:11-14
11 Besides this you know what [a critical] hour this is, how it is high time now for you to wake up out of your sleep (rouse to reality). For salvation (final deliverance) is nearer to us now than when we first believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ, the Messiah).
12 The night is far gone and the day is almost here. Let us then drop (fling away) the works and deeds of darkness and put on the [full] armor of light.
13 Let us live and conduct ourselves honorably and becomingly as in the [open light of] day, not in reveling (carousing) and drunkenness, not in immorality and debauchery (sensuality and licentiousness), not in quarreling and jealousy.
14 But clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and make no provision for [indulging] the flesh [put a stop to thinking about the evil cravings of your physical nature] to [gratify its] desires (lusts).

Apart from the above Scripture passage (and the one from Zecheriah mentioning Joshua and Zerubbabel, where Joshua stood before the altar and got a new set of clothes...), there is something else that came to mind upon reading this thread. In the OT the custom of covenant included the covenant partners swapping clothes and belt....so in our case, The Lord Jesus Christ got to put on our sinful trappings and was crucified, and we got to put on the garments of Glory. The Lord IS our righteousness, our covenant Partner, Who gave Himself. Also, the passage where I think Paul mentions The Lord's flesh as being the real veil that was torn to give us access to the Holy of Holies. Just rambling thoughts, there is other stuff going on here that requires seeing to....so I'll swat the thread back across the net and toss the racquet in the air for the next responder to catch.....

When we become Christians (Little Christs) we are guaranteed a place in heaven because we become clothed with the rigteousness of Christ. 2 Cor. 5:21
Isaiah 59:17 tells you that it is Messiah that is clothed as such. I believe what Paul was referring to in the spiritual battle/defense passage is a symbolical picture of the "putting on" of all the pieces that make up the armor of Christ. Truly Satan will flee if we stand armored in Christ. There is no contradiction because they both refer to Christ, one the seat of our faith in Him the other our realization that we have His righteousness which is our protection from the evil one. Having done all to stand, Stand. Awesome question!

Praise Him

[myinnuendo999]

let's see 1 Thess. 5:8,,," putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Eph 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,


while reading 1 Thess 5:8 I think of that verse in Rom 13:14 that says --"Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

In context of 1 Thess. 5 Paul talks about a contrast of those who are sons of the light and day and those who are of the darkness and of the nite. He talks about those who are "asleep" and that we are to be ALERT. He talks about those who get drunk get drunk at nite.

But we belong to the day and since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Then He says "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Eph. 6:11 is talking about putting on the "Full Armor of God"

why? so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

1 Thess. 5:8 is not talking the same thing. It is talking about putting on "Faith and love as a breast plate and the hope of salvation---this is FOR "obtaining SALVATION...


Ephesians 6:17 says Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

1 Thess. 5:8 says put on,,,, the "hope of salvation"

So,, one is used for BATTLE and the other is for OBTAINING SALVATION

[mikhen7]

let's see 1 Thess. 5:8,,," putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Eph 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,


while reading 1 Thess 5:8 I think of that verse in Rom 13:14 that says --"Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

In context of 1 Thess. 5 Paul talks about a contrast of those who are sons of the light and day and those who are of the darkness and of the nite. He talks about those who are "asleep" and that we are to be ALERT. He talks about those who get drunk get drunk at nite.

But we belong to the day and since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Then He says "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Eph. 6:11 is talking about putting on the "Full Armor of God"

why? so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

1 Thess. 5:8 is not talking the same thing. It is talking about putting on "Faith and love as a breast plate and the hope of salvation---this is FOR "obtaining SALVATION...


Ephesians 6:17 says Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

1 Thess. 5:8 says put on,,,, the "hope of salvation"

So,, one is used for BATTLE and the other is for OBTAINING SALVATION

Yes but both refer to Christ. :)

[Meg]

So it seems to me that we're back to the 2 dimensional picture of Jesus Christ which says its all done for you, fasten your seatbelt of truth and enjoy the ride... If thats the case, where's my low hanging fruit?

[anath]

A snippet from a sermon of Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Also, the comparison Micah uses of Thess5:4 to Romans 13:11 is good.

A Day of Surrounding Darkness


“But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation” (1 Thessalonians 5:4-8).
Paul is talking about the kind of moral darkness we are experiencing today. Paul says the world is asleep in this darkness and if not asleep, then drunk. For we know today the depth of depravity is everywhere—the music, movies, magazines, the Internet and so much more.
But be encouraged! God has a plan for His people in this day of darkness and Paul tells us three things which characterize the Christian in this surrounding darkness.

• Be aware. We don’t have to go around with headline hysteria. We can put the Word of God next to today’s newspapers and declare that we know what the world is coming to—it’s coming to Jesus! The only hope of this poor sin-cursed world is the second coming of Jesus Christ.
• Be awake. The stage is rapidly being set for the drama of the ages. We are not to put on a white robe and go up on a mountaintop and wait for Him. We are to occupy until He comes. God’s alarm clock is going off for us to wake up, get up, dress up, go out, and stand up for the Lord Jesus Christ!
• Be alert. With the breastplate of faith and love, guard your heart, and with the helmet of salvation, guard your head. We need to get a bulldog grip of faith on the unshakable, inerrant, infallible Word of God. And learn to love the Lord, the brethren, and the lost.

[Robert]

We have been debating about two verses here: one that says the breastplate is righteousness, and the other verse that says it is faith and love.

I believe both are correct, and here is why:

Consider what the breastplate was made of and what it covered. When Paul spoke of it, he was using Roman Armor as a model to illustrate for those he preached to (and us) what he meant. The breastplates of soldiers weren't made of metal, but of a thick leather that was shaped, on a form and then boiled in oil to harden it. It didn't provide the same protection that metal medieval breastplates did, but they prevented many arrows and sword strikes from fully penetrating a soldier's flesh.

Now what did the breastplate cover? the heart and lungs. This was of extreme importance in combat: a puncture wound or slash to these organs was an instant kill and a death sentence on the spot. keep in mind that the apex, or tip of the heart bleeds like steak, and a small nick that managed to bypass the sternum and hit there would mean the victim would bleed to death in minutes.

Now, let's examine the three terms used for the breastplate:

Faith has to be given by the Lord; he has to give it and he has to build it in us through trials and tests:

"Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2, NASB, emphasis mine)

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." (Romans 12:3, NASB, emphasis mine)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NASB, emphasis mine)

Righteousness too we do not naturally have, but it has to come from the Lord:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6, KJV, emphasis mine)

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith," (Philippians 3:8-9, NASB, emphasis mine)


And finally, love:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.", "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us" ( 1 John 4:7-10,18-19 NASB, emphasis mine)


The love talked about is not phileo, but agapōmen.

These things HAVE to come from the lord; they do not occur naturally within ourselves. And since they do not, we have to ask for them. Yes, we are washed in his blood had are declared righteous, but we need to die to self every day. Yes, we have faith, but we need to pray that the Lord increases our faith. Yes, we love, but that love is because God loved us first.

All these are of the heart, and we need to protect our hearts in battle with the enemy, who is not flesh and blood but is spiritual. He WILL strike at our hearts unless we cover them with the armor that god tells us to take up. We have to keep our defenses up and not let them don for a MOMENT; otherwise, a "killing blow" is struck and we are felled.

So, I see no difference between the three; they all function together, and depend upon one another.

[mattfivefour]

We have been debating about two verses here: one that says the breastplate is righteousness, and the other verse that says it is faith and love.

I believe both are correct, and here is why:

Consider what the breastplate was made of and what it covered. When Paul spoke of it, he was using Roman Armor as a model to illustrate for those he preached to (and us) what he meant. The breastplates of soldiers weren't made of metal, but of a thick leather that was shaped, on a form and then boiled in oil to harden it. It didn't provide the same protection that metal medieval breastplates did, but they prevented many arrows and sword strikes from fully penetrating a soldier's flesh.

Now what did the breastplate cover? the heart and lungs. This was of extreme importance in combat: a puncture wound or slash to these organs was an instant kill and a death sentence on the spot. keep in mind that the apex, or tip of the heart bleeds like steak, and a small nick that managed to bypass the sternum and hit there would mean the victim would bleed to death in minutes.

Now, let's examine the three terms used for the breastplate:

Faith has to be given by the Lord; he has to give it and he has to build it in us through trials and tests:

"Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2, NASB, emphasis mine)

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." (Romans 12:3, NASB, emphasis mine)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NASB, emphasis mine)

Righteousness too we do not naturally have, but it has to come from the Lord:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6, KJV, emphasis mine)

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith," (Philippians 3:8-9, NASB, emphasis mine)


And finally, love:

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.", "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us" ( 1 John 4:7-10,18-19 NASB, emphasis mine)


The love talked about is not phileo, but agapōmen.

These things HAVE to come from the lord; they do not occur naturally within ourselves. And since they do not, we have to ask for them. Yes, we are washed in his blood had are declared righteous, but we need to die to self every day. Yes, we have faith, but we need to pray that the Lord increases our faith. Yes, we love, but that love is because God loved us first.

All these are of the heart, and we need to protect our hearts in battle with the enemy, who is not flesh and blood but is spiritual. He WILL strike at our hearts unless we cover them with the armor that god tells us to take up. We have to keep our defenses up and not let them don for a MOMENT; otherwise, a "killing blow" is struck and we are felled.

So, I see no difference between the three; they all function together, and depend upon one another.

Indeed they do.

Our righteousness is by faith. (Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7)

Righteousness and love are closely interwoven. (Jeremiah 9:24; Proverbs 21:21; Psalm 36:10). In fact, true righteousness is manifested not by a legalistic lifestyle, but a lifestyle characterized by love. (1 John 3:10)

So the breastplate of righteousness is, of necessity, a breastplate of faith and a breastplate of love ... love for God and love for people (remember what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments.)

Robert hit it right on the nose. But you all contributed wonderfully to a marvelous and productive discussion of scripture. Thanks for asking the question that prompted all this, Linda.

And, for all of us, the lesson is twofold: First, true righteousness comes from Christ alone through faith in His finished work; and the manifestation of that righteousness is love of God and love of one's fellow man. Second, if we do not daily pick up this breastplate and fasten it on, we leave our heart—the site of our true self—unprotected.

I rejoice that I have so many brothers and sisters who desire to know God better and better. Please understand that I have not been sitting back here like some professor elevated above his students, but as a partaker of the discussion (though I have not hitherto posted in it), learning from what each of you has said, considering it in the light of the whole counsel of God. The discussion has indeed been interesting and useful. I learn from all of you. And that is as it should be, for the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills to whom He will—everybody receiving at least one—so that the Church may be built up, so that each of us may be encouraged, fed, and strengthened, being brought to maturity in Christ.

By the way, it strikes me that there is a third lesson in this thread. Namely, that often the answer we seek to a question in God's Word comes not from some complicated exegesis or exercise of logic ... but is found by the most simple of examinations when viewed in the light of who God is. If you know God ... and by that I mean know His nature and His purpose for His children ... you will find His Word opens up to you more and more. But be warned—from this close communion the legalist is excluded and those who choose licentiousness barred.

God bless you all!