Free Will

[Jesus Freak]

I have had an Athiest asked me, If we have free will, and God is omniscient and He has a plan for everyone, then where is the free will in that. He said If God knows I will eat Pancakes, then I cant go against that, b/c He knows I will eat them. How is that free will?

Yes I know this statement is extremely stupid and you can see the stupidity in it. I have tried to explain it in the most sensible way, but it dosent get through to him.

[Dave]

God sees all and knows us. He has known us from the day we were born so he knows what we will do. We have our choices and we make them. He does not tell him to eat pancakes, he just knows your friend will eat them at that certain time because God is all knowing.

Mat or Robert or someone wiser probably can give you verses and better answers but thats how I see it.

[mattfivefour]

This is a case where verses aren't needed. Simple logic is. Let me give you a little example. If I know that my cat gets up off the bed, goes eats its food, and then uses its cat box at 7 every morning of the week, how does my having that knowledge result in my controlling the cat? It doesn't. My knowledge is separate from the cat's routine, and in no way affects or effects his will to do something.

The argument the atheist is using is an error in logic known as post hoc propter hoc or the "cause and effect fallacy". (Post hoc propter hoc is Latin for "after this, because of this".) My knowing something in advance does not mean that I caused it. Now, with God it is exactly the same thing in nature, just not in scale. I know quite a lot of things after they happen and a few limited things before they happen. God knows everything past, present, and future, right down to the sub-atomic level. But in no way does His knowing it mean He causes it, anymore than my knowing what my cat is going to do causes that to happen. So nothing in God's omniscience preempts man's free will.

Now, the Calvinist's unscriptural concept of God's irresistible will causes them a problem in this regard; in that if God's will is irresistible then we are essentially puppets who can only do what God has ultimately willed, some of us being willed by Him to salvation and some to destruction; but all, by some mysterious action of God that we cannot understand, done in perfect justice. That this apparent injustice of creating some people to be destined for hell is actually perfectly just is simply something, they say, you just have to take on faith since we must believe that God is good and just and righteous and it will all be clear to us in the end. Of course, this all flies in the face of "whosoever will may come" and countless other scriptures.

The answer, of course, is to understand that while God's will IS irresistible once He wills something, He has, in the case of man, willed man to use his own free will in so far as it comes to choosing God or rejecting Him. This is not a limiting of God's sovereignty; rather it is an exercise of God's sovereignty. The fallacy exercised by Calvinists is known as "disjunctive syllogism" ... assuming that two propositions are mutually exclusive. In this case the propositions are: "God is sovereign" and "Man has free will". Because they deny the conjunct, they (following John Calvin) reason that either God is sovereign or man has free will: both cannot be true. Therefore since God by definition MUST be sovereign they deduce that free will does not exist. Do you see their mistake? (Too bad they can't.)

Anyway, I hope this helps.

[myinnuendo999]

This is a case where verses aren't needed. Simple logic is. Let me give you a little example. If I know that my cat gets up off the bed, goes eats its food, and then uses its cat box at 7 every morning of the week, how does my having that knowledge result in my controlling the cat? It doesn't. My knowledge is separate from the cat's routine, and in no way affects or effects his will to do something.

The argument the atheist is using is an error in logic known as post hoc propter hoc or the "cause and effect fallacy". (Post hoc propter hoc is Latin for "after this, because of this".) My knowing something in advance does not mean that I caused it. Now, with God it is exactly the same thing in nature, just not in scale. I know quite a lot of things after they happen and a few limited things before they happen. God knows everything past, present, and future, right down to the sub-atomic level. But in no way does His knowing it mean He causes it, anymore than my knowing what my cat is going to do causes that to happen. So nothing in God's omniscience preempts man's free will.

Now, the Calvinist's unscriptural concept of God's irresistible will causes them a problem in this regard; in that if God's will is irresistible then we are essentially puppets who can only do what God has ultimately willed, some of us being willed by Him to salvation and some to destruction; but all, by some mysterious action of God that we cannot understand, done in perfect justice. That this apparent injustice of creating some people to be destined for hell is actually perfectly just is simply something, they say, you just have to take on faith since we must believe that God is good and just and righteous and it will all be clear to us in the end. Of course, this all flies in the face of "whosoever will may come" and countless other scriptures.

The answer, of course, is to understand that while God's will IS irresistible once He wills something, He has, in the case of man, willed man to use his own free will in so far as it comes to choosing God or rejecting Him. This is not a limiting of God's sovereignty; rather it is an exercise of God's sovereignty. The fallacy exercised by Calvinists is known as "disjunctive syllogism" ... assuming that two propositions are mutually exclusive. In this case the propositions are: "God is sovereign" and "Man has free will". Because they deny the conjunct, they (following John Calvin) reason that either God is sovereign or man has free will: both cannot be true. Therefore since God by definition MUST be sovereign they deduce that free will does not exist. Do you see their mistake? (Too bad they can't.)

Anyway, I hope this helps.

I humbly disagree with you brother mattfivefour in that there are many verses that go to show God is Sovereign not us over our will.

Daniel 4 17 says, So that the living may know that the most High is SOVEREIGN over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone HE WISHES and sets over them the lowliest of men.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; HE directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Pr. 16:4 The Lord works out everything to His own ends; even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Pr.16:33 "The lot is cast in the lap but it's every decision is from the LORD."

Revelation 17:17 says that "The Lord puts into the hearts of world leaders to fulfill HIS will. God brought forth human government to fulfill his will in human history,,, Especially in the last days as we see the fulfillment of Prophecy.

Either God is in complete control or I am to do His will or my will. God is Sovereign and if you say God cannot over rule your freedom then tell me who is Sovereign??---you are...and if you really believe that then you have to either apologise to Almighty God or you are ignoring the Scriptures. If you think your will controls or limits the will of God then you are in a posture of rebellion..

A Sovereign God exercises His Soveringty over all His creation. He does what Pleases HIM<< Ps.115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

[micah719]

If that were the case then The Lord Jesus' calls for us to repent or perish are nonsense...and seeing that cannot be the case we should look closely at those Scripture passages. Or are you contending that the Lord is responsible for my sins?

The Daniel 4 quote you supply says "lowliest"...that would imply "humblest", something to be aspired to, as the Lord humbled Himself as Servant. This is not the correct word to use....in the Hebrew, the word in Daniel is "basest", meaning "of the lowest kind". Have a look at the current resident of the Blight House and you get the picture...in this case, a rebellious and wicked generation got the indulgent crowd-pleaser they wanted, thinking their evil desires would get free rein.

Looking slightly higher....the current prince of this evil world, do you think the Lord couldn't change that in an instant? Everything the devil and his minions do is permitted...you can be sure they would like to do a whole lot more if the Lord didn't restrain them. Soon they will have a lot more "freedom".

Look at Job....the Lord let down the hedge and permitted the devil to afflict him, because the devil had accused the Lord of basically bribing Job to love Him. The character of God is on trial, and Job was the exhibition piece. A great honour to suffer in the service of the Lord!

Proverbs 16 is dealt with under the above category...remember, even evil serves the Lord....but there is a day of reckoning. Consider the case of Pharaoh...after much grace, he refused to repent...and the Lord hardened his heart and used him as a vessel fit for destruction to display His awesome power. The Lord knows the heart, and knows when a free-will is never going to repent no matter how many chances are given. Otherwise there would have been more than 10 plagues! Also, don't forget that Moses grew up with Pharaoh, it is likely they knew each other well. Seeing as how Moses was raised by his own mother as wetnurse while in the royal palace, and we know from Scripture she was a God-fearing woman, it is reasonable she taught Moses the way of the Lord...and Moses' little buddy the Pharaoh to come would have noticed something unusual about his Hebrew step-brother. It is a fearful thing to be confirmed in unbelief and be a disposable tool in the hands of the Living God. Look at what He did to Assyria and Babylon...two whole kingdoms that He used to punish His wayward people....but when He cast the used tools aside, He crushed them, and justly.

Proverbs 21.....how do you guide a river....is it not by shaping the bed it flows in? If the Lord wants a king to go a certain way, He can certainly make it so....the king is free to try anything, but if his will strays outside the permission of the Lord, rest assured that wish is a pipe-dream. Look at all the kings that wanted to wipe out Israel....you can be sure they wanted to make a clean sweep, but the Lord only permits them to go so far. Some would do well to remember this in these days.

The Revelation quote falls under the above reasoning too....it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, to crush Him on our behalf....but I sure wouldn't want to be in Judas', Pilate's, Herod's, Caiaphas' or Annas' shoes come Judgement. The Lord wasn't pleased at the action, but at the result....sin and death self-defeated, righteousness vindicated, the fallen creation redeemed, a new people (God's children!) prepared and secure for eternity. Miracles upon miracles, God has brought perfection out of corruption...the gift of eternal life, in justice and mercy and grace, and we have free will to Love Him as is fitting. Otherwise, we would just be mindless robots. Do you love your wife/husband, or do you prefer a blowup doll? Is the love they have for you freely given, or do they speak a pre-recorded "I love you". Do you understand this now? God is Sovereign indeed, and we have free will. In His image, remember...

Isn't Abba Wonderful, brother/sister?

[Robert]

I humbly disagree with you brother mattfivefour in that there are many verses that go to show God is Sovereign not us over our will.

Daniel 4 17 says, So that the living may know that the most High is SOVEREIGN over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone HE WISHES and sets over them the lowliest of men.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; HE directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Pr. 16:4 The Lord works out everything to His own ends; even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Pr.16:33 "The lot is cast in the lap but it's every decision is from the LORD."

Revelation 17:17 says that "The Lord puts into the hearts of world leaders to fulfill HIS will. God brought forth human government to fulfill his will in human history,,, Especially in the last days as we see the fulfillment of Prophecy.

Either God is in complete control or I am to do His will or my will. God is Sovereign and if you say God cannot over rule your freedom then tell me who is Sovereign??---you are...and if you really believe that then you have to either apologise to Almighty God or you are ignoring the Scriptures. If you think your will controls or limits the will of God then you are in a posture of rebellion..

A Sovereign God exercises His Soveringty over all His creation. He does what Pleases HIM<< Ps.115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

With all respect sister: God does control the nations, but he does not micromanage every person's will on the planet. otherwise, free will would not exist, the evil that people would do would be a direct result of God's actions through them, and that would impugn his holiness:

"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." (James 1:13-15, NIV, emphasis mine)

Human will does not limit God's will in the least; God is still sovereign even though his creations have free will. And something to think on: if we did not have free will, we would be little more than robots, unable to choose for ourselves. in which case Satan would have great opportunity to accuse the Lord, saying "you save and condemn arbitrarily, and they have no choice but to obey!!" How could man be in God's image if he were little more than a flesh and blood automaton? God would then be treating human beings as a means to an end, rather than intelligent beings that he wished to share heaven with.

Joshua recognized that people had an ability to choose:

'“Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15, NIV, emphasis mine)

God's sovereignty over the world is not countermanded by a person's free will to choose any more than an earthly king's authority is threatened by a subject's free will in the kingdom. And if God's sovereignty is threatened by free will, then he isn't much of an omnipotent God, is he?

[mattfivefour]

Absolutely correct, bro! Excellent post, right on topic. And all of the verses our sister posted fit exactly with your statement that God does control the nations but does not micromanage every person's will on the planet. Exactly. The day I realized the truth of this is the day I gained an even greater awareness and absolute awe for the omnipotent power of God. He can let man choose his own fate and still be sovereign of all things for all things work out exactly in accordance with his will ... except for the one thing He Himself ordained: that man could choose his own way. As Jesus said in Matthew 18:14 "it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4) Do all do this? No. And the Holy Spirit further says through Peter "God is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Now we know that not all men do come to Him, that not all men do come to repentance. So if the Word of God tells us plainly in at least three places (there are actually more) that God's will is for nobody to be lost but all to be saved, yet His Word also tells us that many ARE lost ... then we have to rethink any doctrine that tells us that God's will cannot be withstood. No, when somebody comes to Christ, he is drawn by God's love. And when somebody rejects Christ, it is not because God forced them to be like that. God's plan for the ages is not some cosmic farce, not some great puppetry in which we are all on strings which He pulls. No, He gives all men the choice. And He is so awesome in His wisdom and omnipotence that he can allow man his own will and still be sovereign. But when somebody does make the choice for Christ, God will then maneuver everything in that Christian's life to produce the person He wants ... for "ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

[myinnuendo999]

I agree with "some of what you have said but not all of it and especially not anything I did not say.

However, I value my relationship with my brothers and sisters FAR MORE precious than trying to make my point or vice verse on this that is a "non-essential" to salvation. So I will humbly bow out of this debate.

May I say, I love the GENTLENESS and kindness and also firmness of your answers dear brothers. I value You and your character that is more like Christ

your sister in Christ, Linda

[mattfivefour]

Linda, I agree. And I am frequently blessed not just by the content of your posts but the Christ-likeness I find in them as well. You are correct in pointing out that this is not a salvation essential and therefore is not worth an argument. Discussion of theological issues is good and necessary ... to a point ... but not when it becomes a bone of contention. Therefore I, too, will step back from this thread. I believe the various points of view have been adequately expressed with sufficient scriptural reference that an honest seeker, relying on the leading of the Holy Spirit, will have a beginning point and will thus be able to benefit.

May God continue to bless you and use you for His glory.

Your brother in Christ,

Adrian

[GlennO]

Jesus Freak,

Attributes of the Creator…..

Omnipresent – Being present everywhere simultaneously.

Omnipotent – Having unlimited authority and power.

Omniscient - Having complete or unlimited knowledge, perceiving all things.

Working the question with you, it seems to me your atheist friend needs to at least consider that the premise that the One who creates time is not bound or limited by that which he created. He stands outside of time - so as Alpha and Omega, He sees the beginning and the end. He knows. We choose.

In the beginning God created… Time; Gravity; Universe; Light; and, Life. The fact you can have the conversation with the atheist (or is he simply agnostic) indicates power of the Holy Spirit and God’s Word may be bringing your friend into a “cross-hairs” moment. It may be as simple as putting your bible in his hands and asking him to read John 3:16 with the word “whosoever” highlighted.

(Isa 55:11) …so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

(Zec 4:6) …Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

You may already have these verses flagged in your “sword”. They are frequently referred to as “Romans Road”. The five verses that comprise the road are:

(Rom 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(Rom 5:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 5:8) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Maranantha!

[Allen]

I've been reading and discussing this topic of Free Will and God's Sovereignty rather intently in the last several weeks. Just tonight I discovered this video of Bill Johnson on the subject.

It won't help the unbeliever, because to him the things of God are foolishness. Jesus said unless one is born again the things of God are hidden. The unbeliever is won by Love - operating in and through us toward him. The good news of what God did for us, in spite of us.

But this video has helped me to understand a little more why God does not reveal Himself openly (like we all want Him to). Bill is an amazing teacher, equiping the body of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56GOKTowu14

[mattfivefour]

Allen, please be very careful with Bill Johnson. There is a lot of error in the practices of his church. And I say that as a pentecostal myself, not as someone who does not believe in the manifestations of the Spirit. Just a word of caution, friend.

[Elijah's Mantle]

I learned some things I did not know about this good thread
I will God can control everything in my life because he knows best
Gods will is derived of the eternal law all things eternal is undying
when Jesus went to the cross he was fully human and in his now living will
(alive) he includes all who will believe in his eternal undying will , that is awesome

[GlennO]

Allen-

I tread carefully here. I am located 3 hours S/E of the Bethel ministry and I have dug into it since it cast its shadow into our valley here. It is clearly integrated into the "Word of Faith" movement. Having inspected the fruit, IMO it is is a false doctrine and I encourage my brothers and sisters to steer clear of this hazard.

The Word of Faith Movement

[Elijah's Mantle]

I have never known much of anything about word of faith stuff and had no ideal I read the info you provided Allen and
geepers yep steering clear of that I never knew that existed how do they get that far out

[Elijah's Mantle]

one thing I read that hurts my heart terribly is that any one say Jesus sinned no he did not
Jesus did not have a sin nature not at all and he paid with his blood for all of ours
why would any one say that about Jesus I dont like that

[Benefactor]

I've been reading and discussing this topic of Free Will and God's Sovereignty rather intently in the last several weeks. Just tonight I discovered this video of Bill Johnson on the subject.

It won't help the unbeliever, because to him the things of God are foolishness. Jesus said unless one is born again the things of God are hidden. The unbeliever is won by Love - operating in and through us toward him. The good news of what God did for us, in spite of us.

But this video has helped me to understand a little more why God does not reveal Himself openly (like we all want Him to). Bill is an amazing teacher, equiping the body of Christ.

YouTube - Bill Johnson - Sovereign Moves of God

I would consider myself OSAS believer that does not agree with the Calvinist view. Some call folk like me OSAS Arminian. Several passages that I feel are critical to the understanding are Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5. Jesus told the woman that her faith saved here. Titus 3:5 tells us what Saved means, "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” In short man is saved because of two things his faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit then regenerating the believer, saving him. This places faith first and salvation second which is the opposite from Calvinism. Election is a Biblical Doctrine and I accept Peter’s explanation of it that we are elect according to foreknowledge and that as Paul states we are elect in Christ Eph 1. The call to believe on its own teaches free will. Faith is not a work but for the Calvinist to maintain their view they have to make faith a work if it is not a special infused gift after one is saved/regenerated.

A book that I felt was very helpful in dealing with this issue is "Grace Faith Free Will" Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism and Arminianism by Robert E. Picirilli

[Allen]

GlennO,

Gee, only 3 hours! I wish I were that close instead of PA. We are blissed here in Harrisburg to see him or a member of the staff once or twice a year. Have you been to any of the services?

On the Word of Faith Movement, that movement, like any other "movement" (name any denomination), developed some errors and hurt people when the followers of the man - who had a deep and personal relationship with God - took his teachings and used them - instead of living them first. I'm learning to walk in what God is showing me, not use it to correct or "help" others when is still is only concept in my experience.

Once a monument or a movement is built on a man or a revelation (a very human thing to do - but not wise) you have the beginnings of religion, secured by doctrine and usually lacking of the Spirit of God that began it in His grace and mercy.

Find the original writings and teachings of Ken Hagin Sr. and you will be blessed... if you see what God showed him. And don't get spooky, it's all in and from the word of God.

I consider Todd a personal friend, so my views would be biased. I first became aware of him after three difference men at work had encountered this "strange, happy dude" and were healed of painful conditions. Todd drove an ice truck in the city at the time restocking all the bag ice coolers at convenience stores. He stopped and prayed for anyone he saw with a need, and then preached the gospel of the kingdom of God... like Jesus said to do. Many have been converted and touched by God's love.

I know him. I like him, alot.

[micah719]

Having your ears tickled would feel kind of nice....

BTW that "neck" ministry includes a pastor (another Todd, possibly the one you know?) that was endorsed by the same "prophetess" that endorsed Todd Bentley. Now that is a huge liability...

If WoF is true, how come none of the Apostles used it to get out of being horribly murdered, amongst other experiences such as being dirt-poor, sick, shipwrecked, etc...? Why didn't Elisha use it to avoid dying of illness? Or any other of the genuine prophets....Isaiah even got sawn in half, anyone going to claim he had no faith or communication with the Lord?

Isn't this WoF too close to sorcery for comfort, seeing as how it claims our spoken words cause effects? If WoF is so effective at binding evil spirits, why are there so many around these days? If this WoF thing works, then why doesn't someone just claim Rev 22 and get the whole thing over and done with, or start the Rapture, I'm sick of being down here with all the liars and murderers and thieves and blasphemers, and I'm sick of this rotting sin-corpse I'm chained to.

The whole thing is a fake, a twisting of Scripture and a pandering to fleshly lust and pride of life, a presumtuous nonsense that tries to make gods out of men...the same old lie from the garden. How dare anyone think they can make God do what they want by their own power of faith and words from sinful lips. Repent!

[mattfivefour]

Interesting, Micah. And good doctrine. WOF-fers deny the true power of faith—which power resides in the One in whom the faith is placed—and transfers it to human beings and the power they can exercise by the function of their minds. It is anti-Scriptural. True faith is trusting God and relying on His grace, not attempting to become like Him and commanding events to suit one's desires.

Interestingly, when WOF-fers say God wants everybody to be healed and to prosper (quoting out of balance 3 John 1:2) they ignore the fact that God did not want Paul healed. Paul asked God three times for the thorn in his flesh to be removed, but God said "No. My grace is sufficient." (2 Corinthians 12:9). Nor did he deliver the martyrs from their deaths, or others from sickness, trial and imprisonment.

God uses circumstances that we may not like to make us stronger in our walk by bringing us more and more to obedience and submission so He may change us more and more into the image of His Son. He did it with Paul. he does it with us. He even did it with Jesus. (Hebrews 5:8) Which leads me to what John MacArthur has to say on the topic:

"We live in a world where God has not chosen to eliminate sin totally from his permissive will of the believer, why should we assume that suffering is excluded? If every Christian were well and healthy, if perfect health were a guarantee benefit of the atonement, millions of people would be stampeding to get saved-but for the wrong reason." God uses many things to get unbelievers attention but the most detrimental thing to preach is to come to God because he’s the great fixer upper, he’ll heal you, make you well, fix your marriage give you a successful job, and make you look good to boot! While he can do any one of these, except for changing how we look, this is not the reason we should come to God. We come to him because of who he is and how he showed his love for us by sending his son to die, He is the giver of our lives and deserves our worship, simply for who he is, and not for what he will do for us. If we can focus on him and his beauty, we may not become self focused and vain." —The Charismatics: A Doctrinal Perspective (Zondervan 1980)

That is very, very well said. And I say that as a pentecostal myself. True Pentecost is an infilling and out-flowing of incomprehensible love and power for service, toward God and toward one's fellow man. Self plays no part and thus is not the focus at all. I trust God completely for my needs and those of my family. Miracles are what I pray for for others, but always according to His will and seeking the leading and power of the Holy Spirit and the instruction of the Word. He is a supernatural God and He does work supernaturally, and we as His servants sometimes are the instruments which He uses. The problem is the WOF-fers want more of that power so that their own lives may be blessed. God will never operate that way. His blessing is not as a result of our actions but as a result of His infinite wisdom.