The violent take it by force

[king'sbloomingrose]

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11:12

I have a question about this one verse in Matthew. In light of what this verse says, does this mean that we are to fight back? How does the kingdom of God not allow violence? This seems to directly contradict the verse that says, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." And then the verse, "If any man lives by the sword he will also perish by the sword."

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this passage. Thank-you!

[Robert]

No, it doesn't mean that; allow me to elaborate:

The kingdom of Heaven isn't built on violence, nor can it be. The second verse you quoted, John 18:36, clearly indicates this. Now, since scripture never contradicts itself, we then have to re-read the previous verse, along with the other verses in the chapter before and after it, to get the context:

"1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

After reading this part of the chapter, it becomes a bit clearer what Jesus was saying: John the Baptist was thrown into prison for his preaching (specifically, calling Herod Antipas out on his lechery, as well as his wife and daughter's indiscretions). Jesus was basically telling us what we would be in for: that we would suffer violence, and that the forceful; (those that would use force) would use force to "take" the kingdom, IE, destroy it.

Of course, the one to really ask about this would be my esteemed friend and mentor mattfivefour. Thus, I defer to his opinion on this matter. :)

[mattfivefour]

I think Robert has made a very good argument; but it is not the only view we can have ... as a closer look at the original verse will show. The Baptist theologian Dennis Swanson has said that "this is a very difficult verse to interpret", and I think him right in this. However, as I have said many times— where a verse is honestly permitting of more than one interpretation (such as this one is) then God's Word is so incredible that it ensures that, regardless of the interpretation we choose, it will still succeed in giving us God's truth and teaching us something He wants us to know.

John the Baptist's announcement of the coming King and His Kingdom produced a strong reaction in the zealous supporters of the Hebrew faith and in those who passionately desired to see the prophesied Hebrew Kingdom set up. Therefore Matthew 11:12 could be interpreted to mean that men were trying everything to get into the Kingdom and to bring about the Kingdom by their own physical means. Luke 16:16 bears this out when it records Jesus saying: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." The word "presseth" in Greek is the verb βιάζω (biazo) that means "to force". It is here in the present tense, middle voice, indicative mood which is always used to show that the subject is acting so as to participate in some way in the results of the action. This means that it should translated reflexively: "every man is forcing himself into it". In other words, men are trying by their own physical efforts to get into the Kingdom.

Robert interprets Matthew 11:12 to mean that evil forces seek to violently seize the kingdom of God so as to destroy it. And this is perfectly acceptable. It is true, they do. When John the Baptist talked of the coming King and His Kingdom, it predictably provoked a strong and violent response in the opponents of the Hebrew faith and of the true Kingdom of God. Men acted violently, killing John; killing Messiah; and on and on, doing everything to stop the spread of the Kingdom. (BTW,I believe Matthew 13:19 is related to this in theme and nature, when Jesus says, "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away—robs, plunders, swoops in and steals away—what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.") In our original Matthew 11:12 verse we have the same word βιάζω (biazo) as used in Luke 16:16 above, used here as a verb and translated "suffers violence"; and as a noun βιαστής (biastes), translated "the violent". The words "seize it by force" are one word in Greek: harpadzo which you may recall is used of the Rapture. It literally means "snatch it away". Because of this, it supports Robert's interpretation of this verse: namely that men attempt to seize the Kingdom away from others. The use of the word "harpadzo" clearly means they want to "snatch it away".

So there you have two possible interpretations. Both are valid and express scriptural ideas. (Though personally I prefer Robert's.)

But this verse also allows for a third interpretation— a prophetic one. And I rather like this one, too. In this interpretation, Jesus is saying that men were not understanding Christ's mission and thus would try to take the Kingdom by force by making Him King in place of Herod. John 6:15 refers to this when it says "Jesus therefore perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force, to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone."

So you decide. All three views are scriptural; and the third interpretation could actually blend with either of the first two. For that matter, all three could be held to and you would not find a contradiction between them, nor be doing any violence to the Word of God.

What an incredibly wonderful gift God gave us when He gave us The Word!!!

Hope this helps.

[myinnuendo999]

Oh that's wonderful guys(Robert and mattfivefour)..

Thanks to you 2 I understand it better also. I thought it to mean that men were trying to force their way into the kingdom of heaven also.

I enjoy your wisdom on this forum

[Keith]

WOW, I never got those interpretations from that verse. Good to hear them. I always just thought that it meant that the kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent take if by force meant that the Kingdom of God is full of blessings but you have to use your faith for them and the devil is always trying to steal your blessings from you but those with strong enough faith don't allow it and take their blessings by the force of faith.

[king'sbloomingrose]

Thank-you to both of you! You did answer my question. :)

[JC1949]

Somehow,i always thought that even though The Kingdom comes as a GIFT to the believers,still,when we pray we are to use " spiritual violence" ( not towards people) but towards spiritual enemies so we are to use FORCE to get the promises fulfilled .So I kind of linked this verse to the spiritual battle that we sustain against principalities etc..that unseen are always opposing the kingdom and The King and His subjects( us,the believers) and so because THE BATTLE is THE LORD's we have to PRAY TRHU ( PUSH =Pray Until Something Happens) and we PRAY,PRAISE and TAKE BY FORCE from the enemy what BELONGS to US because of JESUS but as we know the flesh the world and the devil are CONSTANTLY fighting us so to make us live defeated and ineffective lives....AM I REALLY OUT with the fairies?:)...please I am not creating a doctrine,just expessing an opinion and I am very open to correction.:)

[WazOz]

Great post, and great responses.
I have a Q's?.
What to do when being assaulted?
What to do in vio;ent times, do we defend ourselves and loved ones, can accept being condemened and persecuted for Jesus, but what about every day violence?.
Why I a asking is, Xmas 2009 was assaulted at my home, suffered concussion and minor bruising, plus over 12 months of anger that just pops up, had counselling under a Psych for a while loss of short term memory for over 6 months, now that is ok, just anger, not violent anger, just get agitated too quickly, am praying hearnestly for a healing of the behaviour. When I was attacked, had to defend myself, eventually overcome the thug and broke his nose etc, felt duilty afterwards, as I felt this was not a good example of a Christian, wife is glad as she said I would be dead now if I hadn't defended myself. Now I am having to have spinal surgery (fusions) etc as is wife because she tried to help.
Should I feel bad for hurting someone?

[Robert]

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14).

God never said we could not defend ourselves in scripture. When we were told to turn the other cheek, I believe this to mean regarding insults and sleights.

I'll get back to you on this. its' 2:15 am here.

[WazOz]

Thanks Robert, have been struggling with this for a while.
GB
Warren

[mattfivefour]

Waz, Robert's dad broke his hip last night so Robert may not back here for a while. In the meantime, please allow me to offer some thoughts.

I read your post this morning. But, knowing what happened to you last year, I did not want to answer until I felt I had the mind of Christ on this. So I just walked away. I didn't get much sleep last night so I laid down for a while this evening and fell asleep. When I woke up, the following was clearly laid out in my mind. I hope it is of some use to you, brother.

Would I defend myself if someone were attacking me? I can honestly say that it would depend on what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart and what reactions He prompted at that time. It could be that it would be laid on my heart to witness to the attacker. I have heard some fascinating testimonies of people who witnessed to their attackers and led them to the Lord. One of the most famous was an American woman who was kidnapped by a serial killer. She witnessed to him with such power of the Holy Spirit that he asked Jesus into his heart, let her go, turned himself in, led other cellmates to Christ and then went calmly to his execution. But it would have to be God who clearly told me to witness. Otherwise I would most certainly defend myself; God did not call us to be punching bags. So I would probably feed the attacker his own weapon.

But someone attacking another person is another matter entirely. We are called to love one another and to help the weak and the oppressed. There is no way I would stand by and watch someone harm my wife and children, your wife and children, or any other victims. I would use any means of force in my grasp to help the victims and if the attacker or attackers were hurt or died as a result, I would consider it the result of their own decisions and actions. Their injuries or death would arise out of the results of their own choice.

Anyway, that is what I have peace about after having turned the question over to God. As I said at the beginning, I hope it is of some use to you.

[WazOz]

Waz, Robert's dad broke his hip last night so Robert may not back here for a while. In the meantime, please allow me to offer some thoughts.

I read your post this morning. But, knowing what happened to you last year, I did not want to answer until I felt I had the mind of Christ on this. So I just walked away. I didn't get much sleep last night so I laid down for a while this evening and fell asleep. When I woke up, the following was clearly laid out in my mind. I hope it is of some use to you, brother.

Would I defend myself if someone were attacking me? I can honestly say that it would depend on what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart and what reactions He prompted at that time. It could be that it would be laid on my heart to witness to the attacker. I have heard some fascinating testimonies of people who witnessed to their attackers and led them to the Lord. One of the most famous was an American woman who was kidnapped by a serial killer. She witnessed to him with such power of the Holy Spirit that he asked Jesus into his heart, let her go, turned himself in, led other cellmates to Christ and then went calmly to his execution. But it would have to be God who clearly told me to witness. Otherwise I would most certainly defend myself; God did not call us to be punching bags. So I would probably feed the attacker his own weapon.

But someone attacking another person is another matter entirely. We are called to love one another and to help the weak and the oppressed. There is no way I would stand by and watch someone harm my wife and children, your wife and children, or any other victims. I would use any means of force in my grasp to help the victims and if the attacker or attackers were hurt or died as a result, I would consider it the result of their own decisions and actions. Their injuries or death would arise out of the results of their own choice.

Anyway, that is what I have peace about after having turned the question over to God. As I said at the beginning, I hope it is of some use to you.

Thanks Mattiefivefour, need this input, sorry to hear about Roberts dad, will have prayer for a quick recovery.
Had no chance to witness to this Guy, he was forcing his way into our home, when I tried to stop him, he just went ballistic and threw me against the wall then choking me just kep bangin my head against the Brick wall, must have a thick skull, gave a testimony at Church, said it had to have been Gods protection as I should have died from multiple strikes against the brain and skull.
Am trying now to forgive him and have been asking God to call him to repentance, as well with helping me to heal properly.
Agree 100% with defending family etc, anyone hurting my wife, kids or grand kids would have to go through me first, would die trying to save them.
Thanks for the post.