Really Struggling to Understand Predestination

[JesusIsLord]

Hey all,

I have been doing a study with a fellow brother in Romans 9-11, which we all know to be some of the most difficult and debated scripture in the entire bible. The main block we seem to be hitting is the fact that the bible teaches both Predestination/Election and Freedom of Choice. I have read many different articles on the matter and I have found 4 different viewpoints: 1) Strictly Predestination, 2) Strictly Free Will, 3) Some variant of reconciliation between the two, or 4) Both Doctrines exist but are distinctly separate.

I know this is a hotly debated subject, but I really feel the need to understand how these doctrines fit together. Currently, I am leaning towards #4 simply because I can clearly see that both doctrines are taught in the Word, but at the same time they are so diametrically opposed. It seems any time someone tries to reconcile the two together, they end up doing a disservice to one side or the other. The best I can understand it is this: That since God is outside time, He is in all points of time at the same time.....so He is currently in the beginning, He is currently "now", and He is already in the end. Therefore from His point of view, He already knows who is His in the end......even at the beginning. So from His angle, He foreknew us. But since we are in a time limited dimension, we cannot know those whom He has called, or predestined, so we preach to everyone who will listen, and those who are called will come to believe.

The part I am struggling with is the fact that the meaning wording in the Word goes beyond just a "calling" from God. The word "predestined" implies that those who are saved have been specifically chosen out of the whole lot of people ever to exist. So some are chosen and the others are not. Yet, 2 Peter 3:9 states:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

That is where the Free Will part comes in. If the Lord wants everyone to come to repentance and so be saved, why did He only elect some for salvation? Did Jesus Christ not die for all people? Indeed, He died "once for all", so that "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life". So there you have it......a never-ending paradox.

I also struggle with the fact that if God predestined and elected some to be saved and others to be condemned, how is that Just? I feel like such a heretic saying that because I KNOW God is Just.....I just dont know how! My limited and fallible knowledge of God bothers me to no end! I long to understand these difficult doctrines but fear that maybe we are not supposed to understand? But if that is so, why would it be in His Word?

If anyone could shed a little insight into the matter, it would greatly be appreciated.

[mattfivefour]

You appear to have entered into the typical Calvinist Arminian debate. Predestination versus free will. We have had some good debates on this in RF. Perhaps some of what I have pasted below from those other threads may help you with this issue.
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I have no difficulty understanding the doctrine of predestination ... I just do not believe it lines up with the WHOLE counsel of God. Yes, you can find ample verses to support predestination as the Calvinists preach it, but you can also find many more verses that speak of God opening the doors of salvation to ANY and ALL who will accept the gospel. So, as good students of God's Word, when we find verses that seem to oppose each other—and knowing as a fundamental tenet that God's Word is cohesive and infallible—then we cannot draw doctrine from one side or the other, but must rather prayerfully seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in finding the doctrine that proceeds naturally from the opposing verses and unites them. Calvinistic predestination does not do that. It adheres to one set of verses and sets aside the many others.

Further, and with respect, I must point out that Calvinism categorically denies that the call of the gospel to repent and believe is universal. Strict Calvinists say that the call of the gospel is not universal but only applies to those whom God has chosen to eternal life. The rest, whom He has chosen for eternal torment, cannot—due to man's total depravity—ever come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. As the theologian Arthur Pink says in his tome on predestination: God has predetermined the number who will be saved and those who will be lost and "NOTHING can ever add to or subtract from" God's predetermined number.

I reject this completely ... as being in direct opposition to the character of God as He has chosen to reveal it to us. Yes, Calvinism makes much of God's sovereignty ... which sovereignty I do not dispute in the least. He is the All-powerful, Almighty God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of All things ... who with a single word can speak into being anything He desires. However, Calvinism fails to properly give place to the other supreme characteristics of God ... such as his mercy and His love. In fact the Bible clearly and emphatically states not just that God loves ... but that He IS love. And a God who is love would not create some men just for the purpose of condemning them to torment in the fires of Hell for eternity regardless of whether they might want Him or not. (Actually, under Calvinism, they cannot want him because they are totally depraved.) This is not a God of love and justice as He tells us He is, Calvinist casuistry notwithstanding.

No, the truth is that the sovereignty of God is exercised by Him IN His love and His mercy and all of the other attributes of Light which characterize Him. Friend, your God may only be big enough to maintain His sovereign Godship through the exercise of His deciding who shall be saved and who shall be lost. My God, however, is big enough, glorious enough, magnificent enough, majestic enough, powerful enough, and so transcendentally all-sufficient that He can give man the choice to choose Him or reject Him—and in so doing in no way lessen His sovereignty. In fact it makes His sovereignty al the more AWESOME!

The God the Calvinists envision by their theology is a far weaker God than that. And that is so sad.

Man's free will does NOT negate God's sovereignty SINCE IT IS GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY THAT GAVE HIM THAT FREE WILL in the first place! God is so big, so awesome, so unassailably supreme, that allowing man to choose for or against Him in no way lessens His complete sovereignty over all things.
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Hope this helps a little.

[Eco]

I agree with what Matt has said. I'm going to attempt to simplify it just a little bit though.

Like you said, God is beyond the limits of time. It's hard for us to imagine, but that's how it is.

Here is how I see it. (I stumbled through writing this for longer than I cared to do, so I'm just going to quote Jack Kelley, which is exactly how I see it)

First God foreknew (knew ahead of time who would choose Him)
Then He predestined (appointed or ordained. In effect He reserved a place for those who would choose Him)
Then He called (at the appointed time in our lives He creates the circumstances for us to choose Him)
Then He Justified (once we choose Him he regards us as though innocent)
Then He glorified (He will render us glorious)

God doesn’t make us do anything, but He does know in advance that we’re going to do. Many people overlook the fact that predestination is the 2nd step in the process. The first step is that before He created the first man, he looked down across the span of time and saw everyone who would choose Him. Knowing this, He then set about to make a place for them in His Kingdom.

The resolution of the free will vs. predestination issue is to understand that God isn’t someone with a lot of time. He’s outside of time altogether and can see the whole spectrum of time all at once. We make our own choices and are responsible for them. He knows what choices we’ll make and has prepared for them.

[Daniel]

Suggestd reading:
What Love Is This?
Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God
by Dave Hunt.

Chapter 15 is Foreknowledge and Predestination/Election

[JesusIsLord]

Very interesting comments. Thank you, guys.

I fully agree that God wants everyone to come to repentance, and if one believed like Calvinists do, that would make God a liar, because that would mean that He predestined some to die an eternal death in Hell. I just struggle believing that so much because, in my own weak understanding, it really doesnt seem Just. But we know that, by His Word, He IS a Just God, and that would mean that He gives ALL the chance to come to repentance. I guess I got hung up on the word, "predestined" because the "pre" would indicates the meaning "before"......but now I realize that doesnt necessarily mean that He chose us before.......but rather that He knew us before. I really like the quote from Jack Kelly that you posted, eco....thanks for that.

My only issue now is when you throw in the word, "elect" into the mix. How does the election fit into what Jack says? Because "election" implies someone being specifically "chosen", and Paul and Jesus talk much about the elect. If someone is part of the "elect", then they are part of the group of people that were "chosen". Would this fit into the part where Jack says, "He reserved a place for those who would choose Him"?

[LivnForChrist]

lets use politics as an analogy for election.
if you get enough votes when running for office, you're elected right?
Well, in salvation only God's vote count so when you receive Christ
and are born again, you're elected! You will reign with Christ
when he returns. God has predestined (determined beforehand what the qualifications would be) that all
in Christ would definitely get his vote and get into office.

I hope this analogy helps

[mattfivefour]

And clearly, since God is omniscient, He knew who would accept Him before He ever created them. If He didn't, then He would not be truly omniscient. When you realize this, then election, calling and predestination fall neatly into context. And none of it precludes either His sovereignty or our own free will.

[THE KING IS COMING]

MATTHEW 19:26-WITH YHWH ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.-AMEN

I HAVE OFTEN THOUGHT ABOUT THIS TOPIC.I SIMPLY UNDERSTAND,AND BELIEVE IN BOTH PREDESTINATION AND FREE WILL.AND I BELEIVE THAT OUR ALMIGHTY SEE'S THE BEGINING FROM THE END BUT IS ABLE TO CHANGE THE MIDDLE,THEREFORE CHANGING THE OUTCOME IN THE END(HOPE THAT MAKES SENSE).

I AM NO THEOLOGIAN-SIMPLY A DISICPLE.
YHWH DID SAY HE IS WILLING THAT NONE SHOULD PERISH........AND IF HE IS WILLING THEN EVEN PREDESTINED OUTCOMES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE?

THOUGHTS
LOVE YOUR BROTHER
b.

[Eco]

A lot of confusion on this issue stems from a language to language translation that simply can't convey the original message the way it was intended to be.

Concerning God's will, there are two forms of God's will. I'll keep this short and sweet, but this can really become a topic for a lengthy bible study that I would recomend doing if you have the time.

The first form of God's will is the simplistic desires (if anything about God is simple). He wills that none should perish, and that is the desire of his heart. God is love, and love does not desire death. In God there is found no darkness, or no evil for He is light.

The second, is the "written decree" of the Lord God, creator, surveyor, and judge over all the world. This is the "will" spoken of when God created the universe through His will and his Word. He decreed with His word, and wrote His will into law, forever making the universe.

God #1 wills that none should perish. It's not in his heart for them to die, and it's something He is willing to sacrifice his only son to avoid. But his eternal decree as judge, and a righteous holy judge who has given man free will is to not violate that. Man can choose hell, and many many have and will.

If this doesn't make sense (it's 5:30 in the am and I haven't slept yet >.<), let me give you an example of an earthly judge. Any judge that is apointed must judge and be judged by the law. If a murderer stands trial, and shows true repentance, the judges heart may go out to the man. He may feel for him, and not will that the man goes to jail or to death row. He may even will for the mans release. But the law commands punishment for the crime, and if the proof of the crime will stand up to any shadow of a reasonable doubt, the man must be punished based of the law, and not the judges will. Therefor, the man will recieve punishment, though it can be made more or less severe.

The same is true with God's will. He established his law as righteousness, and his own righteousness and justice must be satisfied. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but the only escape from hell is Jesus, whom many a person will completely reject.

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Hey all,

The best I can understand it is this: That since God is outside time, He is in all points of time at the same time.....so He is currently in the beginning, He is currently "now", and He is already in the end. Therefore from His point of view, He already knows who is His in the end......even at the beginning. So from His angle, He foreknew us. But since we are in a time limited dimension, we cannot know those whom He has called, or predestined, so we preach to everyone who will listen, and those who are called will come to believe.

I am rather long winded, (yes, I am aware of it and can admit it) and I have been making a genuine effort to limit the size of my posts.
Therefore,,,

The above quote is very close to as good an explanation as there is on the subject it mentions. However, the explanation I have been using for years is very close to that except where it deals with God’s creation of the physical world (every aspect of it) “sort of at arms length” outside of it and its element of time.

God spoke this world into existence from the Spiritual in a moment before what we refer to as time (that is a purely physical component), complete from beginning to end. The Spirit of God is omni-present within both space and time as well as the Spiritual from whence they originated. Due to “his” presence in all places and all times, that includes the end of it into eternity “future” of which the scripture says “he” inhabits, literally. Yes, God knows the end from the beginning, and yes, he foreknew every single person that would accept and receive the truth. It gets much deeper than that when you study eternity “past” and the image of God pre-creation that he created man after, which explains the plan of God itself.

[Faith]

I totally believe in 'free will',but God predestine every person to be saved.

It's up to the individual to accept the Lord or not to accept.

I do not believe God picks and chooses who will be saved and not saved.

[Jesus Freak]

For people to sit back and call themselves "the chosen ones" really is ridiculous. God wants everyone to come to repentance. For people to sit back and call themselves "the elect" is just plain dumb. God HAS to create us because He thought of us before the beginning of the Age. The most debated question is "Why would God create someone that He knows is going to Hell?" The reason if that God loves us. Thats all there is to it. We as humans cant imagine Gods loves for us. He CREATED us. That is love aur finite minds cant even comprehend.

[Jedidiah777]

I like to put it in lame man terms .... when you are a father or mother, your first usual reaction to your newborn child is one of awe and adoration..right? a love befalls you and overwhelms you in a way you can't explain. So, that being said, if you knew your child could be physically or mentally handicapped for the rest of their life, would you still choose to let them live out of love and hope that the doctors would be wrong or that the child would overcome this diversity in their life? The same is true of our ABBA. He knew the fate we are destined to.He knows how we will fare or fail.Yet out of the love HE ALONE HAS FOR US, HE chose us to live.He chose us to have a hope and a future.He chose us for a divine purpose.If HE works all things out together for good or uses the bad bad for good, do not you think HE CAN CALL INTO EXISTENCE THOSE WHO HE KNEW WOULD BE BAD OR GOOD FOR THE BENEFIT OF HIS KINGDOM? Whether we admit it or not, there are those out there that rub us wrong, yet through some of those trying personalities, we become better people and learn from them also.IRON SHARPENS IRON.IF GOD ONLY ALLOWED HIS CHOSEN FEW TO LIVE, WOULDN'T THERE BE MORE PEACE OR LESS CHANCE FOR CHANGING INTO THE VERY IMAGE OF CHRIST? I know HE LONGS FOR NONE TO PERISH, JUST LIKE A PARENT WHO DOESN'T WANT TO SEE ANY OF HIS KIDS BECOME MURDERERS AND RAPISTS, LIARS AND THIEVES, AND SO FORTH.But we as human also are aware that though we desire the best for our children, our children have the free will to decide their future and chose light or darkness to follow.BUT IT IS BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE AND THE HOPE HE HAS FOR EACH ONE OF OUR CALLINGS THAT CAUSED HIM TO CREATE US NO MATTER THE COST.AND THE COST WAS HEAVY" HIS VERY OWN SON;DEATH ON THE CROSS;BLOOD SHED;TORTURE........
REMEMBER THIS THOUGH: THE END IS V.I.C.T.O.R.Y. AND THE ENEMY DOES GET DEFEATED.

[mattfivefour]

Spurgeon once said something on this topic that has always stuck with me. He said, "Think of the gate of heaven, and above it is a large sign, “Whosoever will may come.” As you pass through the gate, you look back and from the inside the sign reads, “Chosen from the foundation of the world." I like this because it really speaks of the dual nature of the topic. From our perspective ANY person may come, but once it is all over, only those who accepted will have come and—because (as others have correctly pointed out above) God is outside of time—they were known from the foundation of the earth.

Regardless of your point of view, God does not create some men and women and destine them to go to Hell. He creates ALL to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but by His omniscience He already knows the ones who will be and those who will not.

[JesusIsLord]

I like to put it in lame man terms .... when you are a father or mother, your first usual reaction to your newborn child is one of awe and adoration..right? a love befalls you and overwhelms you in a way you can't explain. So, that being said, if you knew your child could be physically or mentally handicapped for the rest of their life, would you still choose to let them live out of love and hope that the doctors would be wrong or that the child would overcome this diversity in their life?

You have no idea how much this spoke to me. My wife and I are going through that right now. Doctors are saying things that may or may not come to pass and we just have to wait until our daughter is born. But regardless of the outcome, we love our unborn child so much already and nothing could change that. Thank you for letting God speak through you by His Holy Spirit....

I think I understand this issue much more clearly now. Thank you all for responding!

God bless.

[Littlesooz]

When I was struggling with this question I had to come to the place where I looked at context to discover what predestination actually means.

There is no doubt that God chooses nations and people for His purposes so that His plan for mankind and His universe for that matter will be fulfilled. He predestines there is no doubt.

Calvinism teaches that God predestines unbelievers for salvation. If that is the case then it follows that He predestines others for Hell. I can't see that in Scripture.

(Eph 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

These verses which contain the predestine word do not refer to salvation but believers to blessings.

I have come to believe after much struggle that God does not choose some for Heaven and some for Hell.

May God bless your working it out. I think it is important that we do this and understand that Faith does not replace intelligence.
I read that in my daily reading today.

[WKUHilltopper]

Spurgeon once said something on this topic that has always stuck with me. He said, "Think of the gate of heaven, and above it is a large sign, “Whosoever will may come.” As you pass through the gate, you look back and from the inside the sign reads, “Chosen from the foundation of the world." I like this because it really speaks of the dual nature of the topic. From our perspective ANY person may come, but once it is all over, only those who accepted will have come and—because (as others have correctly pointed out above) God is outside of time—they were known from the foundation of the earth.

Regardless of your point of view, God does not create some men and women and destine them to go to Hell. He creates ALL to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but by His omniscience He already knows the ones who will be and those who will not.

So true--hades/hell is (will be) created for Satan and his demons, not men per the Scriptures.

He creates ALL to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but by His omniscience He already knows the ones who will be and those who will not.

When I get questions about similar topics--in a simple form, I tell people: "It's like you offer a kid broccoli or chocolate cake for breakfast. You know which is better for them. But you also know what the kid is going to chose too. So when the kid gets sick, there's no excuse--it was his personal choice."

[LdyinChrist]

Something to think about:


The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

[mattfivefour]

3. Because of man's choice. You cannot leave man's free will out of it. Yes, Jesus suffered the punishment for all of the sins of all men ... but the forgiveness for those sins and the consequent righteousness is not imputed to a person until they accept Jesus as Messiah by faith.

[Faith]

Amen Matt on #3.

We are saved by what Christ did on the cross,and not by what we do.

Christ only asks us to 'accept' Him,and 'rest' in Him.

That's 'faith.'

God bless....