Church polity

[jeafl]

I became a Christian while attending a YMCA day camp when I was 4 years old, but I was not raised in a Christian home. I had little opportunity to ever attend church services while growing up (the only bus ministry that came through my neighborhood had a founding pastor that was a child molester). As an adult I have not been able to find a church that is sound in doctrine and practice and which shows a genuine concern for social welfare work, which I consider necessary for any church to be legitimate.

My uncle died unexpectedly in 2005 I inherited a fair amount of cash. I wanted to put the money towards building a non-profit college prep Christian school. However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

Since 2006 I have been looking for a pastoral position that would enable me to use my inheritance to promote the Gospel. I am King James only (of a sort), so I have been interested mostly in IFB and BBF churches. I’ve always had concerns about the independent polity of these churches and the tendency of their pastors to act like dictators, but I was willing to overlook this for the sake of having a King James only congregation.

But recently I have participated in several internet message boards that are meant for KJVO/Baptists. I have had little but hostility from these boards. I have even been told that I cannot be saved because I graduated from public schools (rather than “Christian” school or homeschool) and I have a bachelor’s degree in biology from an accredited private college.

The hostility of the IFBs has only heightened my concern over the independent nature of their congregations. I’d like to get some input on several matters.

1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)? Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

[readytogo]

I became a Christian while attending a YMCA day camp when I was 4 years old, but I was not raised in a Christian home.

What do you mean that you became a Christian at age 4? Did you recite a prayer that someone told you to? I understand not being raised in a Christian home--many of our members weren't either. But what changed for you when you were 4 years old?

[Price is paid]

First things first, welcome to Rapture Forums. Could you please define IFB and BBB. As far as being saved this is from an earlier post I started and Voiceoftruth responded which I agree with fully.

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voiceoftruth Male voiceoftruth is online now
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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Hi All.

As has Robert has said, no you can not lose your salvation in any way shape or form & those who teach this are in grave error of the word. Just to give you an idea, salvation is a gift from God. If you check through your Bible you will see that never at any time does God or will God ever take away any gift he has given. For anyone to say otherwise makes God a liar & I for one would not like to be in there position for having done so. Here are some verses from the Bible showing you the truth on this subject, I am sure that others will agree with the things I have said here.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
We don't receive it by our works - and we don't keep it by our works!
" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it - it would not be a free gift - and God would be a liar!
". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.
"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.
My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually - God becomes your Father - nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) - SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.
"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1
"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18
"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5
"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) - but he himself shall be saved!
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

Our salvation is so secure - even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" - Paul still speaks of that person being saved - ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

To lose your salvation - makes God a LIAR!

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you - to even suggest you could lose your salvation - is to call God a LIAR!
". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

God Bless you all
VoT
__________________
If a man has not read a news paper today, then that man is uninformed. If a man has read a news paper today, then that man is misinformed.



As far as Denominations are concerned also refer to the above. Being a Christian is being in Christ and needs no other label. My church is listed as Southern Baptist, however most of us consider ourselves non-denominational. Our pastor was methodist until he disagreed with their doctrines. If I looked enough I could find Apostasy of some form in all.

Bottom line is you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ Yeshua Messiah.

Now, personally, if I had inherited or had an abundance of money, I would help the hard working families that have all of a sudden lost their jobs and its going to get worse, a wonderful oppurtunity for churches to spread the Good News Of Jesus Christ and help the needy at the same time. I would not wait for anyone, I would not wait for a council to vote on it, I would simply do, and do in the name of Jesus Christ.

[jeafl]

What do you mean that you became a Christian at age 4? Did you recite a prayer that someone told you to? I understand not being raised in a Christian home--many of our members weren't either. But what changed for you when you were 4 years old?

Are you saying that salvation is age-dependent? I gather that you doubt my Christian status and so you are likely to reject any explanation I give, so why should I bother?

[jeafl]

First things first, welcome to Rapture Forums. Could you please define IFB and BBB. As far as being saved this is from an earlier post I started and Voiceoftruth responded which I agree with fully.

voiceoftruth's Avatar
voiceoftruth Male voiceoftruth is online now
Resident


Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Here for now
Posts: 198
Default
Hi All.

As has Robert has said, no you can not lose your salvation in any way shape or form & those who teach this are in grave error of the word. Just to give you an idea, salvation is a gift from God. If you check through your Bible you will see that never at any time does God or will God ever take away any gift he has given. For anyone to say otherwise makes God a liar & I for one would not like to be in there position for having done so. Here are some verses from the Bible showing you the truth on this subject, I am sure that others will agree with the things I have said here.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
We don't receive it by our works - and we don't keep it by our works!
" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it - it would not be a free gift - and God would be a liar!
". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.
"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.
My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually - God becomes your Father - nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) - SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.
"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1
"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18
"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5
"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) - but he himself shall be saved!
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

Our salvation is so secure - even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" - Paul still speaks of that person being saved - ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

To lose your salvation - makes God a LIAR!

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you - to even suggest you could lose your salvation - is to call God a LIAR!
". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

God Bless you all
VoT
__________________
If a man has not read a news paper today, then that man is uninformed. If a man has read a news paper today, then that man is misinformed.



As far as Denominations are concerned also refer to the above. Being a Christian is being in Christ and needs no other label. My church is listed as Southern Baptist, however most of us consider ourselves non-denominational. Our pastor was methodist until he disagreed with their doctrines. If I looked enough I could find Apostasy of some form in all.

Bottom line is you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ Yeshua Messiah.

Now, personally, if I had inherited or had an abundance of money, I would help the hard working families that have all of a sudden lost their jobs and its going to get worse, a wonderful oppurtunity for churches to spread the Good News Of Jesus Christ and help the needy at the same time. I would not wait for anyone, I would not wait for a council to vote on it, I would simply do, and do in the name of Jesus Christ.

Independent Fundamental Baptist and Baptist Bible Fellowship.

I do not doubt my own salvation and I did not intend for this thread to be about salvation, but rather church polity and the hostility of certain Baptist fundamentalists.

[jeafl]

Now, personally, if I had inherited or had an abundance of money, I would help the hard working families that have all of a sudden lost their jobs and its going to get worse, a wonderful oppurtunity for churches to spread the Good News Of Jesus Christ and help the needy at the same time. I would not wait for anyone, I would not wait for a council to vote on it, I would simply do, and do in the name of Jesus Christ.

Much of today’s economic crisis is due to people’s greed and stupidity, i.e., buying houses they could not afford and granting mortgages worth more than the real market price of the properties mortgaged. I do not want to subsidize either activity. Establishing a K-12 school and enabling Christians to enter professional fields where they are currently un-represented would have the greatest long-term benefits.

[NoDoubts]

Are you saying that salvation is age-dependent? I gather that you doubt my Christian status and so you are likely to reject any explanation I give, so why should I bother?

Why do you get so defensive just because a question was asked? I don't see where the person doubted you are a Christian. I just saw that a simple question was asked.I, myself, was curious....not judgmental....just curious.

[readytogo]

Are you saying that salvation is age-dependent? I gather that you doubt my Christian status and so you are likely to reject any explanation I give, so why should I bother?

No, salvation is not age-dependent. It's not dependent on gender, social status, economic status, ethnic origin, etc either. I'm not saying that you aren't saved. (I'm not the one that makes that judgment.) I've known other young people who have been saved at that age. I just was asking what it meant to you at that age (or any other) to "be a Christian".