the angel of the Lord

[Frontiersteel]

Most people agree the angel of the Lord could be either the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ or the Father himself.In all the study bibles I checked it said it was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. Heres the problem I`m having with this if the angel of the Lord is Christ,whats this verse in Matthew all about...

Matthew 28 (King James Version) Matthew 28 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

The angel of the Lord said Jesus is not here.I believe the angel of the Lord was always the Father(theophany) and not jesus(christophany). Any insight into this would be appreciated.

Thanks, Matt

[readytogo]

Most people agree the angel of the Lord could be either the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ or the Father himself.In all the study bibles I checked it said it was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. Heres the problem I`m having with this if the angel of the Lord is Christ,whats this verse in Matthew all about...

Matthew 28 (King James Version) Matthew 28 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

The angel of the Lord said Jesus is not here.I believe the angel of the Lord was always the Father(theophany) and not jesus(christophany). Any insight into this would be appreciated.

Thanks, Matt

I don't agree that "the angel of the Lord" was ever a theophany. While there are instances where "the angel of the Lord" can be said to be a christophany, there aren't any real examples of the Father being seen in human form. In the instance sited above, I believe that "angel of the Lord" refers to exactly just that---an angel.

[Frontiersteel]

Can we agree the angel of the Lord is seperate from an angel of the Lord?

[readytogo]

The angel of the Lord said Jesus is not here.I believe the angel of the Lord was always the Father(theophany) and not jesus(christophany). Any insight into this would be appreciated.

Thanks, Matt

Can we agree the angel of the Lord is seperate from an angel of the Lord?

Since you've already decided that it was a theophany, then I don't see the point in discussing it.

[Price is paid]

The angel of the Lord descended from heaven—Matthew is very particular in this, to show that the word angel is not to be taken in the sense of an ordinary messenger, who might have come from Joseph of Arimathea, or from any other; but in the sense of an extraordinary messenger, who descended from God, out of heaven, for this very purpose. It is likely that the angel had descended, rolled away the stone, and was sitting on it, before the women reached the tomb. Adam Clarke Comentary on the New Testament

I would take of as meaning from.

[Frontiersteel]

The angel of the Lord in this case speaks as though he is God.
Genesis 16:10
The angel of the Lord is a warrior not just a messenger
Numbers 22:23
2 Samuel 24:16
2 Kings 19:35
1 Chronicles 21:16
Psalm 35:6
Acts 12:23
The angel of the Lord said his name is secret
Judges 13:18
An angel of the Lord said his name is Gabriel
Luke 1:11-19
The angel of the Lord can't be Jesus
Matthew 1:20
Matthew 28:2-6
Contradiction
in Acts 7:29-31 its an angel of the Lord in the bush. In Exodus its the angel of the Lord.Exodus 3:1-3

Theres more but I think the point is made.I'm fairly confident in saying the angel of the Lord is not a christophany.At the same time I'm starting to second guess the theophany viewpoint.Could he just be the personal angel of the father?Or is he a regular angel?
In the old testament the angel of the lord always has Lord in all capitols(the angel of the LORD)in the new testament LORD rarely is used,its just Lord. Can it be said that the LORD is the father and the Lord is Jesus?Maybe because the Father gave Jesus full reign after his resurrection?

Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

But then again theres contradictions in John and Acts and Revelations when Jesus is refered to as LORD.

is there anything to this?

[Transformed]

There is an excellent book, "Christ Before the Manger," by Ron Rhodes, that presents strong evidence that The Angel in the Old T. is the preincarnate Christ. You might check that out for a thorough treatment of the subject.

[In Christ Alone]

Best to always look at the context first. If the angel of the Lord is worshiped, and the angel allows it, then it is a Christophany. A mere angel never permits anyone to worship them. Since Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God I believe that all such occurrences are Christophanies.

[Transformed]

We have a brochure in our church called "Deity of the Trinity." I've copied it in a new format into a blog: www.DeityOfTheTrinity.blogspot.com
Interesting comparisons.

[mattfivefour]

The Greek would indicate "AN angel" of the Lord ... not "THE angel of the Lord". In fact "angel of the Lord" is translated even in the KJV New Testament as "an angel of the Lord" as often as "the angel of the Lord" even though in most cases the Greek does not warrant the use of the definite article in preference to the indefinite article in English (or vice versa.) It seems solely to have been dependent on which particular group of translators worked on a particular passage. (As you know the King James translators worked in separate committees ... as do most translators... therefore some verses were translated by one group while the next set of verses was translated by another. And in some cases they just lifted verses directly out of the Greek Septuagint translation and from Jerome's Latin vulgate translation.) Suffice to say, God has myriads of angels who perform His bidding. It is quite possible for ANY angel to be His messenger at any given time. Rarely is a specific angel indicated ... Michael and Gabriel being the only ones ever specifically named in Scripture.

As to the question of theophanies— I personally believe that the Son who has always been and has always loved His Creation did in fact express that love prior to His incarnation by visits at key times. As just one of a number of such cases look at Jacob's wrestling with the "man" in the thirty-second chapter of Genesis. Ddo you think his just a man? Or an angel? What did Jacob say immediately afterward? "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." —Genesis 32:30

No, I think it clear—here and elsewhere—that Christ appeared to man prior to his incarnation. But I am not about to engage in a theological argument over it because such an argument would be completely pointless. It could serve no possible useful purpose. All it would most likely accomplish would be to serve to separate brethren. We are not to engage in such unprofitable debates. But rather we are to engage in that which builds one another up.

Personally, I see the evidence of theophanies in the OT. And to me they wonderfully convey the eternal love Christ has—and has always had—for His people! Others do not accept theophanies for whatever theological reason they may have. So be it. The fact is we all worship the same Lord and are saved by the same blood. Let us rather strive to lift one another in the faith, rather than strive over words and doctrines that do nothing either to preserve the true faith or to encourage and build up the saints.

[70C20]

Most people agree the angel of the Lord could be either the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ or the Father himself.In all the study bibles I checked it said it was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. Heres the problem I`m having with this if the angel of the Lord is Christ,whats this verse in Matthew all about...

Matthew 28 (King James Version) Matthew 28 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

The angel of the Lord said Jesus is not here.I believe the angel of the Lord was always the Father(theophany) and not jesus(christophany). Any insight into this would be appreciated.

Thanks, Matt

I agree with your theophany angel of the Lord theory...since God is spirit he would have to manifest as an angelic apparation to converse with men in those instances, but there are numerous angels in revelation that are doing things and saying things, and in Rev.21:1 thru Rev.22 it seems like the voice from heaven ends at the time this angel comes on the scene to complete his revelation to John...v.21:9....and then mysteriously becomes the Lord in 22:7....and then in v.16 " I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches...." IMO any angel, unless otherwise stated, could be the Lord speaking just as the Prophets spoke by the Spirit of the Lord.