Dare To Return To The REAL Early Church Model...

[Meg]

I removed the OP, because when I checked into the author of the posted article, he didn't do too well under scrutiny. The article did seem impressive, but the ministry behind it was full of jargon, and they were charging money for everything. The4re was, in other words, a troubling lack of transparency at their home page. I apologize for not checking the ministry behind the article before I posted, a mistake I will hopefully not repeat...

[froggy]

Thanks to both of you for posting/re posting this one. Our modern seminaries can do enormous harm to young Christians with a call to ministry. Some of them even debating the very existence of God. If you doubt this, try watching a History channel special on anything to do with Christianity and listen to the "theological experts" try to talk you out of your faith altogether.

Christ didn't send his disciples to seminary and they turned the world upside down. I would happily follow a garbage collector over a professor of theology if he has a passion for Christ, passion for rightly dividing the Word, passion for reaching the lost, and a lifestyle of obedience to his Lord.

I just saw a very well known Mega Church pastor on Sunday decrying the persecution of Christianity in the U.S. and our moral decay. I wanted to grab the man by the shoulders and tell him,"Yes, we know how bad things are. How does restating how bad things are change anything? Won't you tell your flock the Good News, train them how to share it and exhort them to obey the great commission and tell others? A revival is what we need, not to sit in the pew and shake our heads as society collapses around us!" I don't mean to sound self-righteous--I need to tell myself that once in a while too.

Let's get back to basics--return to our first love again!

[mattfivefour]

Froggy, towards the end of my article on "Theology: Why you should care" I wrote the following. I believe it fits exactly with what you have posted in this thread.
----------------
We must never allow our intellect to delegitimize, dismiss or otherwise deny the fundamental truths of God's Word. Paul was one of the most learned men of his day, a rabbi held in great regard until his acceptance of Christ as the long-promised Messiah. And he warned that we must never allow our minds to question the fundamental things that God has revealed. We may learn, but that learning must not be allowed to question God.

"We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." (2 Corinthians 10:5 NASB)

Unfortunately, from the evidence I see, most seminaries today seem to do the opposite. They encourage speculations, and encourage any thought if it can be intellectually argued, regardless of what questions it may raise. Intellectual pursuit has become the purpose, not humbly pursuing the knowledge of God and earnestly seeking to obey Him.

Thus we have succeeding generations of pastors and teachers who increasingly question the reliability of scripture, who have little faith other than in a general sense, and who have no firm moorings other than, perhaps, the intellectual certainty given them by their professors.

Sadly many of them know—or think they know—a lot about God but they do not know HIM. No wonder Western Christianity is so feeble, so sick. It is corrupted from within. Average, everyday Christians are in trouble because the assemblies to which they belong are corrupted because their pulpits are filled by men (and women) who have only an intellectual basis for their belief and are driven hither and yon, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Their ideas come from the books of men not the Book of God. Yes, they may quote scripture; but it is scripture filtered through the lens of their favorite teacher, not pure and unadulterated scripture opened by the Holy Spirit in direct personal response to the direct and personal seeking of the revelation of the Word in humility and prayer.

Our Bible Schools need to get back to the Bible. And Christians need to exercise that direct personal relationship with the Father that they have been so freely given by Christ's finished work at the Cross and trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth and righteousness.

Does this mean that there is no place for teachers? Not at all. God has placed pastors and teachers into His Church to feed His sheep. But it is each sheep's responsibility to ensure that the food he is being given to eat is good and healthy, not tainted and harmful. God has indeed placed teachers into the Body, but they are to labor, ministering unto (Literally "serving") the members as faithful servants of God. And to ensure that the servants are kept honest, He has given His Word and His Holy Spirit to each and every child of His so that they may known when they are being fed good food ... and bad.

The corrupt teacher will bear the penalty for his wickedness in mishandling the precious Word of God ... be it intentional or merely the product of his (or her) own pride. But that does not free the individual Christian from responsibility for their own actions. Honest men many disagree on many things; but there are certain fundamentals of our faith which must NOT, which CAN not, be gainsayed.

There have been ample good teachers throughout the history of the Church. We have their writings available even today. And currently there are good teachers out there. If you pray sincerely and earnestly, the Holy Spirit will lead you to them. And you will indeed know them by their fruit. A good teacher will reinforce scripture, encourage faith in God and His Word, and will feed that great desire in you to know more of God, bringing you to a closer personal relationship of trust and love with Him. And as he does this, you will notice in this teacher and pastor some of the very qualities of Jesus Christ; for he will be reflecting the image of the One being formed in him by the Holy Spirit. If all you are seeing and receiving is the product of your pastor and/or teacher's intellect, you are sitting at the wrong feet.

Don't worry too much about your pastor-teacher's degrees... or lack of them. Rather, concern yourself with what is important. If you find a person who reflects Christ—from whom shine some of those very qualities as delineated by the life of Christ on earth and codified (if you will) in the Galatian listing of the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control)—then listen to that one. His teaching is likely to be right. And God has given you both His Word and the Holy Spirit to ensure that.

[micah719]

You need to be very careful when you hear a church person mention "missional". You're about to get taken on the social gospel liberal theology crowd-pleasing government collaboration type ride. Before you know it, you have emerged. Literally.

Check this out...... emergingchurch.info > stories > mark sayers

This is a most unusual incident. I used to live in South Melbourne, amongst those people. It was hard finding a decent Biblical church.

Eventually I settled for the oldest Baptist church in Victoria...a giant building with seating for 500, lovely old cedar pews, honour roll on the wall, a sense of entering the castle of long gone spiritual giants...because there were at most 50 people at the best attended service. The pastor was a woman. The pastor of the nearest affiliated church in the union was a homosexual; an easily discerned one, going by the leather clothing and the voice and mannerisms. They are heavily into P.E.A.C.E, the UN MDG, and God only knows what else. Their current pastor is a former lecturer at Melbourne's Wheatley College, and before that....Fuller Theological Seminary. Emergent, New Evangelical, liberal to the core. When I look back I am horrified at the pit of vipers, the wolves' den that little newborn Christian micah bundered into. And I am also angry, that firstly Christians do not make the effort to grow spiritually to be able to recognise such dangers, and that secondly they don't speak up when they can smell a rat, thirdly either they stop others from calling the alarm or make it ineffectual.

That assembly was on the surface very concerned with outward shows of charity and assisting the marginalised, and talking smooth things and appearing very welcoming to the world....but thoroughly laodicean, with a bit of ephesus and thyatira and pergamum thrown in. Don't worry, smyrna is coming soom, and I have no fear for the few philadelophians left there, they'll be brought through or out from under it. And this was one of the better assemblies....I won't go into detail about the worse ones.

It is shocking to see that ideology being dragged in here as a model for the genuine early church, especially from a neighbourhood I know intimately. It is disappointing to read the proffered links and see the heresies and poisonous ideology flowing swift and strong and ever so subtly, a masterpiece...and none recognise it. If you look at the source article Three Over-looked Leadership Roles | LeadershipJournal.net (that's page 2 of 6) you should see the problem pretty quick.

Here's what I want you to do before blasting my head off with the Matt 7 or 18 shotgun, or come at me with the LuuuvvvvyDuvvy-knout: go and study the terms "missional" and "emergent". After that, study "liberal theology", "neo-orthodox", "social-gospel". Look at the people in that movement and learn to recognise them and the way they speak and how they think. They snare many souls and their tentacles reach far and wide and deep.

On the subject of seminaries, I agree with Matt and froggy. There are few left that do not poison the well and subvert the church. Considering this was a clearly stated goal of the socialists for centuries, it is not surprising. What is shocking is how successful they have been. The sheep are being trained to howl and rend, and the wolf is feasting on them and they enjoy it and think it's Christian.

Meg, if you are putting forth that Melbournian abomination from the OP as a church, even worse an ideal church, you are grossly mistaken and deceived. It is the opposite.

[seank6]

interesting article indeed. i dont see that at the seminary i attend. alot of dangerous assumptions being made by grouping alll colleges and seminaries alike. but hey what do i know?

[micah719]

Some info on Mr Hirsch:

the socialist wiki: Alan Hirsch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
one of his books: The Forgotten Ways - Developing Apostolic Imagination and Practice in Western Contexts.

the forge organisation he started: Forge Australia
and a metastasised branch overseas: Who We Are

Check that last one and let me know if you notice the occult symbolism. Also, let me know about the classic emergent buzzwords you find....shouldn't be hard.

seank6, which seminary do you go to? Are you measuring all the seminaries by yours? Are the last days to be signified by the majority in apostacy, or a minority? Where would this start, in the pew or at the pulpit? And the last three questions out of left field: Whitefield or Wesley? TR or NA? Finney or Edwards? I haven't been to seminary but I do read a lot and wasn't born yesterday, but what do I know.

[seank6]

Wow great Micah. You are right you have read a lot.good for you I'm gla it makes you proud.all this criticism of pastors is a wonderful witness.

[Meg]

Ever since I read the entire article I posted in the OP, I have been wondering if it is possible for their example to be repeated elsewhere. Is it possible for a group to be self controlled, respectful and able to trust one another enough to work closely with the Lord Himself and get something done about unbelievers turned around. Around here any church growth is largely attributed to people switching churches or moving here from somewhere else.

Missional church with a sense of responsibility shouldn't be out of reach. If such a goal is out of reach, we may as well raise a white flag and hang our heads in shame. As it is, I am still praying about and thinking about the next installment in the Ephesians thread, addressing this issue among others.

Sean, I'm glad you're in a decent Seminary school. Thats a good start, but its what anyone does with what we know that makes the needed difference...

[micah719]

Wow great Micah. You are right you have read a lot.good for you I'm gla it makes you proud.all this criticism of pastors is a wonderful witness.

If you mean the missionals, they need to be criticised, even if they don't listen. Perhaps someone watching might get the message that the missionals are wolves.

I lived in the very place described in the OP article, and I know these people and what they do.


This thread is ridiculous. Why is a plainly emergent movement being promoted here?

Sean, if more Christians made the effort to learn Scripture, theology, history, politics, economics and literature they wouldn't be such easy prey for the wolves that spring up amongst us or are smuggled in. If more Christians acted like Bereans and actually checked things out instead of blindly swallowing everything tossed down from the ivory pulpit the church would be in much better shape.

A decent pastor would be aware of the many dangers and actually welcome the spotlight, because that guards his back and makes his life easier. He is neither the centre of the church, nor is he the head nor the purpose of it. He is to guard and feed the flock, build them up so they multiply and bring forth fruit, not milk and shear them. The whole flock has different gifts and strengths and weaknesses, needs and services to offer. If one man amongst them arrogates all unto himself, the local church is made ineffective. Now who would want to have such a state of affairs? Someone worried about his kingdom being assaulted?

The spirit of nicolaitanism sets the pastor up in his ivory tower and emasculates the sheep and fleeces them. It makes for a stable, controllable, captive, passive flock that does whatever it is told but never grows beyond bottle-feeding, never goes and fights the spiritual war, never realises when error and heresy gets mixed in, never has any courage or initiative and also makes a good pretense of unity and familial caring but is merely a sham.

The rotten shepherds insist on their station and title and the rewards but fall short in truth. The reason pastors as a group have such a rotten reputation is because more than half of the men calling themselves that are rotten. Not all pastors go to seminary or hold degrees, wear special clothes or carry titles. None of those things are Biblical requirements anyway.

Now, mr pastor-in-training, how come you aren't the one warning us of the dangers of the missional movement? Particularly as it is dragged in here surreptitiously, into a forum where the daily posts regularly show the dangers of that movement, and how widespread it is? It is a part of the New Evangelical slurry, and the most distilled version of that is called emergent. Is it even studied at your seminary? Or perhaps is it part of the curriculum, who knows? Do you take the initiative to check things out, or do you let other men determine the limits of your knowledge? If so, you're not going to be a very wise shepherd, but probably a good team player that never rocks the boat, even when it is sinking or about to run on the rocks. Are you even aware "missional" thinking is a direct offshoot of that slimy liberal Barth's work? That the roots of Barth go to Hegel? That this same noxious tree has branches called Darwin, Marx, Freud, and many more?

Don't get the idea I'm against pastors. What I'm against is the usurpers that snatch that title and use it as a magical shield to hide behind. In my opinion, the word pastor has been almost irredeemably tainted by the procession of wolves that have claimed the name ever since such a position was instituted. Whenever I hear it automatically go into alert mode, because I'm probably about to get fleeced if I'm not careful. This is based on long experience, as well as much study. I rejoice when I meet or hear or read of a decent one, and those men I defend and support. I wish it were more often.

[seank6]

If you mean the missionals, they need to be criticised, even if they don't listen. Perhaps someone watching might get the message that the missionals are wolves.

I lived in the very place described in the OP article, and I know these people and what they do.


This thread is ridiculous. Why is a plainly emergent movement being promoted here?

Sean, if more Christians made the effort to learn Scripture, theology, history, politics, economics and literature they wouldn't be such easy prey for the wolves that spring up amongst us or are smuggled in. If more Christians acted like Bereans and actually checked things out instead of blindly swallowing everything tossed down from the ivory pulpit the church would be in much better shape.

A decent pastor would be aware of the many dangers and actually welcome the spotlight, because that guards his back and makes his life easier. He is neither the centre of the church, nor is he the head nor the purpose of it. He is to guard and feed the flock, build them up so they multiply and bring forth fruit, not milk and shear them. The whole flock has different gifts and strengths and weaknesses, needs and services to offer. If one man amongst them arrogates all unto himself, the local church is made ineffective. Now who would want to have such a state of affairs? Someone worried about his kingdom being assaulted?

The spirit of nicolaitanism sets the pastor up in his ivory tower and emasculates the sheep and fleeces them. It makes for a stable, controllable, captive, passive flock that does whatever it is told but never grows beyond bottle-feeding, never goes and fights the spiritual war, never realises when error and heresy gets mixed in, never has any courage or initiative and also makes a good pretense of unity and familial caring but is merely a sham.

The rotten shepherds insist on their station and title and the rewards but fall short in truth. The reason pastors as a group have such a rotten reputation is because more than half of the men calling themselves that are rotten. Not all pastors go to seminary or hold degrees, wear special clothes or carry titles. None of those things are Biblical requirements anyway.

Now, mr pastor-in-training, how come you aren't the one warning us of the dangers of the missional movement? Particularly as it is dragged in here surreptitiously, into a forum where the daily posts regularly show the dangers of that movement, and how widespread it is? It is a part of the New Evangelical slurry, and the most distilled version of that is called emergent. Is it even studied at your seminary? Or perhaps is it part of the curriculum, who knows? Do you take the initiative to check things out, or do you let other men determine the limits of your knowledge? If so, you're not going to be a very wise shepherd, but probably a good team player that never rocks the boat, even when it is sinking or about to run on the rocks. Are you even aware "missional" thinking is a direct offshoot of that slimy liberal Barth's work? That the roots of Barth go to Hegel? That this same noxious tree has branches called Darwin, Marx, Freud, and many more?

Don't get the idea I'm against pastors. What I'm against is the usurpers that snatch that title and use it as a magical shield to hide behind. In my opinion, the word pastor has been almost irredeemably tainted by the procession of wolves that have claimed the name ever since such a position was instituted. Whenever I hear it automatically go into alert mode, because I'm probably about to get fleeced if I'm not careful. This is based on long experience, as well as much study. I rejoice when I meet or hear or read of a decent one, and those men I defend and support. I wish it were more often.

as much as i would love to ,i just dont have it in me to argue with you micah..i love you brother i love all of you very much im so glad for the time i have had here on this forum but im at the point in my life where i just dont have the desire to argue with anyone anymore and that seems all that everyone wants to do here. i will keep you all in my prayers and matt and chris yall have been great!! im just done with where this has gone and the feelings this site stirs up in me arent appropriate. good luck all of you and see ya later !!

[GlennO]

This past Sunday our pastor-teacher taught from James 3:1-12.

I find it very difficult to find anything of merit delivered in Christianity Today.

Clearly it struck a chord as I have found myself on the horns of that message many times this week. There is no spiritual profit here for me in this thread.


Deu 32:2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distill as the dew, like gentle rain upon the tender grass, and like showers upon the herb. (Moses Song)

Col 4:6
(6) Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Tit 2:8-10
(8) and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
(9) Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
(10) not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Believer's Bible Commentary (BBC)
2:8 Sound speech that cannot be condemned is free from anything to which exception might be taken. It should be free from side-issues, doctrinal novelties, fads, crudities, and the like. This type of ministry is irresistible. Those who oppose sound teaching are put to shame because they cannot find a chink in the believer's armor. There is no argument as effective as a holy life!

2:9 Special instructions are now given for slaves. We should remember that the Bible acknowledges the existence of institutions of which it does not necessarily approve. For instance, the OT records the polygamous lives of many of the patriarchs, yet polygamy was never God's will for His people. God has never approved of the injustices and cruelties of slavery; He will hold the masters responsible in a coming day. At the same time the NT does not advocate the overthrow of slavery by forcible revolution. Rather, it condemns and removes the abuses of slavery by the power of the gospel. History shows that the evils of slavery have disappeared wherever the word of God has been widely preached and taught.


But in the meantime, where slavery still exists, a slave is not excluded from the very best in Christianity. He can be a witness to the transforming power of Christ, and he can adorn the doctrine of God our Savior. More space in the NT is devoted to slaves than to rulers of nations! This may be a clue to their relative importance in the kingdom of God. Christian bondservants (that's us) should be obedient, except when it would mean disobeying the Lord. In that case they would have to refuse and patiently suffer the consequences as Christians. They should give satisfaction in every respect, that is, be productive both as to quantity and quality. All such service can be done as to Christ and will be fully rewarded by Him. They should not talk back or be impudent. Many slaves had the privilege of leading their masters to the Lord Jesus in the early days of Christianity, largely because the difference between pagan slaves and themselves was so glaring.

[mattfivefour]

I have great difficulty condemning a missional church because it is missional, if by missional we take the word to mean not what the emergents might claim it to be—namely social action without the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, an omission made because the Cross is an offense to the world. But if we take it to mean doing exactly what Jesus said in both the New and Old Testaments as to what is true faith and true religion and thus exactly what God desires of us, then we are bound to be missional in the sense of reaching out to others because the love of Christ constrains us. And Scripture is clear that our role is to go into all the world to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but also to match it with our deeds, caring for all those in need whom God brings across our paths.

Anybody who is truly born again must recognize that the Bible is clear in its statements regarding what pleases God. For example (and this is but one of many) In Isaiah 58 God Himself says: "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is itnot to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; and if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: and the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not." (Isaiah 58:6-11) This sentiment is repeated over and over in the OT, both before and after Isaiah. It is the heart of God that we do such as is said.

I find it interesting that in the gospels, Jesus, when he is asked by the rich young ruler what he must do to be saved, Jesus says, "Keep the commandments" and then enumerates only from the last 6. This puzzled me for quite some time. Why did Jesus not state the obvious ones? After all, aren't the key ones numbers 1 through 3 (if not 4)?

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

3) You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

But Jesus never mentions one of these. Why?

After much prayer it came to me: Jesus was speaking to Jews and the Jews prided themselves on their respect for every little thing related to God. They obeyed every single minute legal detail regarding the worship of—and the reverence for—God. Thus Jesus did not have to remind this young ruler that this was the Law. He knew that the young man, as a jew, knew it. But our Lord also knew that the Jews had severed their duty towards their neighbor from their duty toward God. They claimed to love God with all of their heart, mind, soul, and strength. Except they forgot that God is as interested in our love for our neighbor as He is in our love for Him. In fact the two are inseparable. That they knew this was in the law is clear from the reply that the expert in the law gave to Jesus when Jesus responded to the man's question as to what man must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus asked, "What does the Law say?" To which the lawyer replied: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." Which Jesus confirmed as being the truth by responding " Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Matthew records another lawyer asking the very same question; but this time Jesus Himself gives the answer that it is to love God wholeheartedly and our neighbor as ourself. And then He adds: "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Note that: ALL the law and the prophets. In other words, everything God has spoken relates to both commandments and both commandments are equally important. Those experts in the law, those sticklers for the tithing of mint and cumin, for the most minute aspect of God's Word were condemned by Jesus because they missed the main things God demands.

In the writings of the apostles we find exactly the same emphasis. James, possibly the very first of the epistolary writers, says very simply: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." And then, more specifically and bluntly, he writes: "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" His brother John is even more blunt: "Whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" He then, in the very next sentence, exhorts, "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

Can anything be plainer than that? Yet our modern day Pharisees relegate such care for the poor to a subsidiary place in the role of the Church. It becomes a smaller part of the duty of a church and a Christian. They love to argue the letter of doctrine; but, like the Pharisees of old, they miss the entire point of what God has said He desires. And they do this despite the fact that our God has made it clear that this is as important as our service toward God. In fact, it is made obvious that serving one another IS serving God. Yet they condemn those churches and Christians who go out into the world in the Servant spirit of Jesus Christ. As long as the Spirit of the missional work is to serve Christ as He has commanded us to serve, then I cannot condemn the attitude or the acts of these churches, for to do so would be to condemn Scripture.

However, if a so-called missional church believes that social action is more important than the gospel or that the way to win souls to Christ is to feed and clothe and comfort them, removing all evidence of the Christian's separation from the world, and watering down the gospel to make it palatable—in other words, attempting to remove the offense of the Cross—then I must stand up and loudly condemn that church and the individuals as participants in egregious error ... their acts being actual acts of an apostasy that has supplanted the true gospel with another! And all who love Jesus Christ must do the same.

Let's get the balance back into the gospel. It is both word and deed. It is both love of God and individual spiritual service toward Him, and love of mankind and service toward him. The two should be inseparable.

So if you believe that you should take Jesus Christ into the world in demonstration of His love, preaching sin and death and salvation through Jesus Christ alone by what He did on the Cross, supporting His uncompromised Word with acts that manifest His heart, then may God richly bless your work. I say "God speed!" for the Scriptures tell me you are doing EXACTLY what He has commanded.

[mikhen7]

I have great difficulty condemning a missional church because it is missional, if by missional we take the word to mean not what the emergents might claim it to be—namely social action without the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, an omission made because the Cross is an offense to the world. But if we take it to mean doing exactly what Jesus said in both the New and Old Testaments as to what is true faith and true religion and thus exactly what God desires of us, then we are bound to be missional in the sense of reaching out to others because the love of Christ constrains us. And Scripture is clear that our role is to go into all the world to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but also to match it with our deeds, caring for all those in need whom God brings across our paths.

Anybody who is truly born again must recognize that the Bible is clear in its statements regarding what pleases God. For example (and this is but one of many) In Isaiah 58 God Himself says: "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is itnot to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; and if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: and the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not." (Isaiah 58:6-11) This sentiment is repeated over and over in the OT, both before and after Isaiah. It is the heart of God that we do such as is said.

I find it interesting that in the gospels, Jesus, when he is asked by the rich young ruler what he must do to be saved, Jesus says, "Keep the commandments" and then enumerates only from the last 6. This puzzled me for quite some time. Why did Jesus not state the obvious ones? After all, aren't the key ones numbers 1 through 3 (if not 4)?

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

3) You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

But Jesus never mentions one of these. Why?

After much prayer it came to me: Jesus was speaking to Jews and the Jews prided themselves on their respect for every little thing related to God. They obeyed every single minute legal detail regarding the worship of—and the reverence for—God. Thus Jesus did not have to remind this young ruler that this was the Law. He knew that the young man, as a jew, knew it. But our Lord also knew that the Jews had severed their duty towards their neighbor from their duty toward God. They claimed to love God with all of their heart, mind, soul, and strength. Except they forgot that God is as interested in our love for our neighbor as He is in our love for Him. In fact the two are inseparable. That they knew this was in the law is clear from the reply that the expert in the law gave to Jesus when Jesus responded to the man's question as to what man must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus asked, "What does the Law say?" To which the lawyer replied: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." Which Jesus confirmed as being the truth by responding " Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Matthew records another lawyer asking the very same question; but this time Jesus Himself gives the answer that it is to love God wholeheartedly and our neighbor as ourself. And then He adds: "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Note that: ALL the law and the prophets. In other words, everything God has spoken relates to both commandments and both commandments are equally important. Those experts in the law, those sticklers for the tithing of mint and cumin, for the most minute aspect of God's Word were condemned by Jesus because they missed the main things God demands.

In the writings of the apostles we find exactly the same emphasis. James, possibly the very first of the epistolary writers, says very simply: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." And then, more specifically and bluntly, he writes: "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" His brother John is even more blunt: "Whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" He then, in the very next sentence, exhorts, "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

Can anything be plainer than that? Yet our modern day Pharisees relegate such care for the poor to a subsidiary place in the role of the Church. It becomes a smaller part of the duty of a church and a Christian. They love to argue the letter of doctrine; but, like the Pharisees of old, they miss the entire point of what God has said He desires. And they do this despite the fact that our God has made it clear that this is as important as our service toward God. In fact, it is made obvious that serving one another IS serving God. Yet they condemn those churches and Christians who go out into the world in the Servant spirit of Jesus Christ. As long as the Spirit of the missional work is to serve Christ as He has commanded us to serve, then I cannot condemn the attitude or the acts of these churches, for to do so would be to condemn Scripture.

However, if a so-called missional church believes that social action is more important than the gospel or that the way to win souls to Christ is to feed and clothe and comfort them, removing all evidence of the Christian's separation from the world, and watering down the gospel to make it palatable—in other words, attempting to remove the offense of the Cross—then I must stand up and loudly condemn that church and the individuals as participants in egregious error ... their acts being actual acts of an apostasy that has supplanted the true gospel with another! And all who love Jesus Christ must do the same.

Let's get the balance back into the gospel. It is both word and deed. It is both love of God and individual spiritual service toward Him, and love of mankind and service toward him. The two should be inseparable.

So if you believe that you should take Jesus Christ into the world in demonstration of His love, preaching sin and death and salvation through Jesus Christ alone by what He did on the Cross, supporting His uncompromised Word with acts that manifest His heart, then may God richly bless your work. I say "God speed!" for the Scriptures tell me you are doing EXACTLY what He has commanded.

Excellent Matt!! I will respond a little later in the day with how I perceive this thread. I am concerned for Sean that his feelings have been hurt. He is going to seminary, and obviously it is a dream of his. No one should ever be condemned for going to Bible College or Seminary. I went and I survived. I will use one of GlennO's idioms, You just have to read and listen and spit out the seeds. If you are Born-Again and living a Spirit filled life you will recognize what is incorrect. Professors, for the most part, do not down grade you if you do not hold to their theological point of view, but rather they desire that you articulately express why you believe as you do. If you can do that in the Spirit, then you will cruise through with greater knowledge and weapons to fight than you would if you just follow them blindly. All I can say is this: I loved college and the seminary classes I did take and I am a stronger Christian because of it.
More later.
God Bless!!!!!! He is so awesome!

[mattfivefour]

(Trust me, this is relevant here!)

[GlennO]

Adrian -

We finally finished our month long fuel-wood shed project yesterday. With an ice-pac on my back a computer on my lap I composed my thoughts. My effort was half-hearted as you noticed.

The unkind tone of speech put me off. Eventually the pain-killers won out and I hit the send button. Thank you for stitching up the ragged ends my brother!

I've got no beef with the term missional. In fact, Reality in Carpinteria, CA (pastor-teacher Britt Merrick) is a fine example of a church on-mission where Jesus is exalted as senior pastor. I spent five very profitable years there before we moved to NorCal.

As I read the Alan Hircsh material, my "Spidey-Sense" went off and I will steer clear of such.

In closing, members should please give this link another read....
IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR ALL MEMBERS!

[GlennO]

At the risk of being accused as a hijacker.... it seems to me

1Co 13:1-13
(1) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
(2) And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
(3) If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
(4) Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
(5) or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
(6) it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
(7) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(8) Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
(9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
(10) but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
(11) When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
(12) For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(13) So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[mikhen7]

Ok, I just wanted to add a few more lines to this topic. First of all I would like to say that we as believers are to always be discerning considering the many false teachings that abound within Christianity and the world. That requires being knowledgeable of the Scripture yet as harmless as a dove in our dealings with others. But knowledge by itself, we are told “puffs up,”

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

Although the context concerns eating things sacrificed to idols, the principle is valid on many levels. We are never to be a people that lords over others with the wisdom we think we possess. Paul says we all have wisdom of some sort. But wisdom is only good when it wields itself with a sword of love. There really are only two choices when it comes to exposing heresy or discipling others in truth. In love, we can gently teach and lead by example—in the Holy Spirit, or we can try to conform others to our way of reasoning by the use of our knowledge alone—in the flesh. In the former case we will find that people are easy to persuade if genuine love is present. As Matt said earlier, we are “constrained by His (Jesus’) love,” 2 cor. 5:14; therefore we speak. However, the latter choice involves speaking out either by anger, by deception, or simply in the flesh. Invariably someone always gets hurt or offended. Again we know that offenses abound, but as the Jesus says: “Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! (Matthew 18:7) It is clear Jesus is speaking of causing another to sin or even worse to cause them to sin in such a fashion as to never receive Christ as Savior.

The church is responsible for doing all things to God’s glory. That does not just mean those who attend Sunday service. All believers are to act and react in mannerisms that are conducive to the sharing of Christ’s love and the furtherance of His mission. His fragrance abounds when we do and others see it. That said, there are many things we are told to stand firm for and to flee from. But standing does not mean pointing a finger in condemnation because someone is not just like you anymore than fleeing means to abandon those who are sick, Mk. 2:17.

Now in reference to things done in the flesh, in Matthew 11 we find Jesus confronting the generation of people to whom He witnessed in 1st century Israel. Phariseeism was strong and held a firm grip upon the lives of the people. The Pharisees were the class of religious leaders who had re-defined the Law of Moses into many other laws of their own devising meant to be kept in order to avoid breaking the true law as written in Scripture. That said, the things they imposed upon the populace were so burdensome that it was nearly impossible to keep them. That alone was a type of religious oppression that was never meant to be. Take this passage for instance:

“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,
and saying:

‘ We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”


The picture Jesus meant to convey was that this particular generation of people has settled in their own minds how they would worship God—according to their own laws and rules and not those as revealed in Scripture. And at this time, they were doing a pretty good job of keeping the populace under their thumbs. But can we really walk according to our own light or wisdom and expect God to dance to our piping? He likened their actions to that of children who get upset if other children do not follow the rules of the game as set up. John the Baptist came preaching true repentance toward God, and that from the heart, and they said he had a demon, because he did not dance to their tune. In love, Jesus came bringing the eternal truths of God as He continuously expounded the Scripture and worked miracles (the works of God) as foretold by the prophets (cp. Isaiah 61:1). He Himself stated earlier in the chapter the following:

Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see:
The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” (Mt. 11:4-6)

His actions were those of a loving God come down to men; neither would He lament at their mourning. In other words, the rules and teachings they laid out for the people to follow in turn for incurring the eternal favor of God were not true Scripture—they were not the words of life. Therefore, they did not deserve an audience.

Jesus stated that John the Baptist was just like those whom God had sent since the days of Moses. In Jesus' eyes He was the greatest of Gods prophets because He heralded the coming of the Messiah. But instead of welcoming him in with open arms, these leaders and a multitude of their followers simply said he (John) has a demon and he was rejected. Jesus came proclaiming the awesome depth of the love of God to all who would hear and instead of embracing His Words they called him a glutton and a winebibber—again rejection. All this because he reached out to those that this generation had shunned. They, therefore, rejected for the most part both John and Jesus as lunatics.

Amazing isn't it? When you come face to face with God as the Pharisees did you either bow to Him or try to get Him to bow to you. If your attitude toward God is like that of the Pharisees, i.e. you have your own way of living complete with rules and preconceived ideas about God, His church, His leadership, and when He is to be invoked, then your plight will fall short.

I realize that today we have a plethora of scripturally untrained, weak, and pathetic Pastors, and leaders in the church. It has been that way for centuries and centuries. One could make a case that it goes as far back as the 3^rd century A.D., if not further! But why do we need to waste precious time and resources focusing on the enemy? Shouldn’t our hearts and minds be focused upon Christ and His mission? The time is short! True we need to sound the word and expose these heretics, but it must be done in love. Remember the Parable of the "Wheat and the Tares"?

If we really believed God’s word in the way we say we do then we would focus a little more on the context in which words are used. “Missional” can be portrayed one way to one group and differently to another. We could say the same thing about the “Kingdom of God.” How many are there who teach “Kingdom now theology?’ That is the teaching that the whole world will be converted to Christ, thus we ourselves, via evangelism, will bring in the Kingdom of God. Yet the Bible teaches the Kingdom of God is near you, Luke 10:9, is in you, Luke 17:21, and is coming in the future Luke 22:18. Because some twist the meaning does not mean I should never use the word “Kingdom”? The same could be said of other words, like sanctification. The Bible is clear, we are sanctified, Acts 20:32, 26:18, we are being sanctified, Heb. 2:11, 10:14, and we will one day be sanctified completely, 1 Thess. 5:23. But there are some who believe sanctification is a state you attain to after you have accepted Christ as Savior and Lord. Should I shun the use of the word because others misuse it? Thank God I find daily that I am not sufficient in myself to serve God or attain to anything praiseworthy. My sufficiency, as is yours, is from Christ, 2 Cor. 3:5.

I think all of us can learn a lesson here. Submit our thoughts and emotions to the Lord Jesus Christ. Let our words be in love and seasoned with grace. The great Apostle said it best in his letter to the Philippians:

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things.
The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you. Philippians 4:8-9

If we will follow that example we can put out the darts of the wicked one by training ourselves to recognize what is from God and in the Spirit, and what is not. Not only so, but we will begin to see our thought and speech change in a way that is edifying for the church. To be sure, the Holy Spirit will also allow us to expose others that are teaching false things but it will not consume all or most of our time and He will do it through us in a Spirit of Love.

I hope we can all begin to allow God to be the fingers of our keyboards, the voice from our mouth, and the love springing from our heart!

God Bless